Vance "Beastmode" McDonald Thread

FYI, we have an entire personnel department that is tasked to gauge the value of every player on the team...as well as every potential trade player on other teams. Every avenue is explored...it's usually just not leaked.

"If you're a 2-14 team, there's a lot of things you can improve on," McDonald said. "… So if teams are going to call and inquire about you, then obviously the next step is going to be see what it requires for the trade. And you're going to call around to every other team. So that's exactly what happened for me. It wasn't like they don't want me here. There was never a lack of communication on any level."

Originally posted by NCommand:
FYI, we have an entire personnel department that is tasked to gauge the value of every player on the team...as well as every potential trade player on other teams. Every avenue is explored...it's usually just not leaked.

"If you're a 2-14 team, there's a lot of things you can improve on," McDonald said. "… So if teams are going to call and inquire about you, then obviously the next step is going to be see what it requires for the trade. And you're going to call around to every other team. So that's exactly what happened for me. It wasn't like they don't want me here. There was never a lack of communication on any level."

Absolutely agree, and just to add, the trade probably didn't go through because of capanomics. I don't know Vanc's exact cap numbers but I bet a trade would hit our cap hard because I understand that he just signed a multi-year contract last year. ShanaLynch probably would have required very high draft or player value in return to justify taking a cap hit for trading Vance.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:
FYI, we have an entire personnel department that is tasked to gauge the value of every player on the team...as well as every potential trade player on other teams. Every avenue is explored...it's usually just not leaked.

"If you're a 2-14 team, there's a lot of things you can improve on," McDonald said. "… So if teams are going to call and inquire about you, then obviously the next step is going to be see what it requires for the trade. And you're going to call around to every other team. So that's exactly what happened for me. It wasn't like they don't want me here. There was never a lack of communication on any level."

Absolutely agree, and just to add, the trade probably didn't go through because of capanomics. I don't know Vanc's exact cap numbers but I bet a trade would hit our cap hard because I understand that he just signed a multi-year contract last year. ShanaLynch probably would have required very high draft or player value in return to justify taking a cap hit for trading Vance.

Exactly...at that time, they were looking for as many draft picks as possible...for obvious reasons. They publicly made it known they were open for business. This is no different. Hell, even more so b/c our personnel department was brand new. They had a very short amount of time to assess our players, their fits and their value. The only way to find out their value is to explore trade options and entertain inquiries; even call other teams and inquire...like this one. Every personnel department in the NFL knew we were a new staff and FO and were open for business. The contracts are known around the NFL so if a team is inquiring about Vance, they are fine with the contract. My guess is, we didn't get the trade value we wanted in return. It wasn't worth it on our end (probably was only offered a 6th or 7th and note we drafted a TE in the 5th). They view Vance as a valuable player and are fine with his contract. Otherwise, they would have unloaded him for that 6th or 7th rounder. Clearly, that's not the case.

Originally posted by NCommand:

FYI, we have an entire personnel department that is tasked to gauge the value of every player on the team...as well as every potential trade player on other teams. Every avenue is explored...it's usually just not leaked.

"If you're a 2-14 team, there's a lot of things you can improve on," McDonald said. "… So if teams are going to call and inquire about you, then obviously the next step is going to be see what it requires for the trade. And you're going to call around to every other team. So that's exactly what happened for me. It wasn't like they don't want me here. There was never a lack of communication on any level."

NC... your totally not understanding my point.
I agree with you all players have values and we will trade off anyone.

But I'm not gonna believe a word a coach or GM says to the public.
Why would you? Yes lynch and Kyle are claiming to be transparent but they still need to protect the players ego that doesn't get traded.

We've heard lies out of this front office for years and I don't blame some of it because as I said they need to do it to protect the players they have.

But I'm not gonna believe everything they say...
You guys can. I won't.

That was my point. I don't believe someone asked about Vance when this draft was loaded with TE's. Why pay for a TE that cant catch lol and can't stay healthy.
You and a few others just hate when your not agreed with, and no one is always right! Lol
I maybe wrong and I'm not afraid to say it!
Hey like I said we all want this team to be successful! SO CHEERS & LET'S HOPE FOR A SUCESSFULL (LOW DRAMA AND ARREST FREE!) SEASON!

Originally posted by jeepzilla:
NC... your totally not understanding my point.
I agree with you all players have values and we will trade off anyone.

But I'm not gonna believe a word a coach or GM says to the public.
Why would you? Yes lynch and Kyle are claiming to be transparent but they still need to protect the players ego that doesn't get traded.

We've heard lies out of this front office for years and I don't blame some of it because as I said they need to do it to protect the players they have.

But I'm not gonna believe everything they say...
You guys can. I won't.

That was my point. I don't believe someone asked about Vance when this draft was loaded with TE's. Why pay for a TE that cant catch lol and can't stay healthy.
You and a few others just hate when your not agreed with, and no one is always right! Lol
I maybe wrong and I'm not afraid to say it!
Hey like I said we all want this team to be successful! SO CHEERS & LET'S HOPE FOR A SUCESSFULL (LOW DRAMA AND ARREST FREE!) SEASON!

That's cool if you don't believe Kyle and Vance (both their stories perfectly match)...there's certainly nothing wrong with being skeptical of public statements like these to the media. IMHO, it just seems very genuine and transparent and fits with this new ShanaLynch regime. That's all. I believe both...

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:
@ 3:28
(snipped)

Talking about the role of the TEs in this offense, he says that they (TEs) are the guys in command of the WR corp. That sounds interesting.

Are TE's the new running backs in a pass happy NFL league? In the Old days with the Raiders and the 49ers, running backs like Marve Hubbard and Delvin Williams were the main cogs on offens - it seems to me with all the rule changes - the fullback/TE/Wr guy is now the main workhorses in Kyles new offense. When the FB goes out on pass route (on a 3 wide formation), I don't see that any different than being in a 4 wide spread attack, in the sense that the fullback/TE is that 4th "WR." I just think that when the FB/TE lines up in the backfield or at the end of the line, the formation is much more difficult from a defensive standpoint to figure out whether it's a pass or a run play. Kittle has WR speed at 4.52/40 - he's going to be a very interesting player to watch in pre-season considering Vance hasn't developed as fast as I though he would.

When it comes to the passing game, I think today's TE can serve multiple roles, depending on his skillset and what the offense requires him to do. Generally speaking, I think today's slot WR now serves the same purpose as the 80s Bill Walsh RB/FB in the passing game. Replacing a RB with a slot WR just puts the player closer to the line of scrimmage so that he has a "head start" into his route. Instead of coming out of the backfield, he's already at the line of scrimmage. The slot WR and the 80s RB coming out of the backfield serve similar purposes - catch high percentage passes.

When Kyle was in HOU, Owen Daniels was a possession type of TE. So was Chris Cooley in WAS. Both Daniels and Cooley were around 3rd in targets in those offenses while averaging around 12 yards per catch. Signs of a possession pass catcher type of role. The outliers for Kyle are Jordan Cameron in CLE who averaged over 17 yards per catch - that's playmaker status, not possession TE. Last season in ATL, the TE didn't seem like a big part of the passing game as he started using RBs more in the passing game. I'm looking just at number of targets.

It'll be interesting how Kyle uses his TEs and RBs in the 49er passing game. Both number of targets and yards per catch will tell us how he envisions the TE role. Knowing him, he'll just use each player to their strengths. To me, both Vance and Kittles seem to be more suited to attack downfield. Not run a bunch of stick routes, curls, and other short routes over the middle of the field like a Jason Witten. Although I don't know much about Kittles just that he's a freak athlete. It seems like every team is looking for that TE that is a mismatch downfield.

Originally posted by jeepzilla:

Originally posted by NCommand:
FYI, we have an entire personnel department that is tasked to gauge the value of every player on the team...as well as every potential trade player on other teams. Every avenue is explored...it's usually just not leaked.

"If you're a 2-14 team, there's a lot of things you can improve on," McDonald said. "… So if teams are going to call and inquire about you, then obviously the next step is going to be see what it requires for the trade. And you're going to call around to every other team. So that's exactly what happened for me. It wasn't like they don't want me here. There was never a lack of communication on any level."

NC... your totally not understanding my point.
I agree with you all players have values and we will trade off anyone.

But I'm not gonna believe a word a coach or GM says to the public.
Why would you? Yes lynch and Kyle are claiming to be transparent but they still need to protect the players ego that doesn't get traded.

We've heard lies out of this front office for years and I don't blame some of it because as I said they need to do it to protect the players they have.

But I'm not gonna believe everything they say...
You guys can. I won't.

That was my point. I don't believe someone asked about Vance when this draft was loaded with TE's. Why pay for a TE that cant catch lol and can't stay healthy.
You and a few others just hate when your not agreed with, and no one is always right! Lol
I maybe wrong and I'm not afraid to say it!
Hey like I said we all want this team to be successful! SO CHEERS & LET'S HOPE FOR A SUCESSFULL (LOW DRAMA AND ARREST FREE!) SEASON!

stop the ill will and bad mojo and we will be successful !

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:
@ 3:28
(snipped)

Talking about the role of the TEs in this offense, he says that they (TEs) are the guys in command of the WR corp. That sounds interesting.

Are TE's the new running backs in a pass happy NFL league? In the Old days with the Raiders and the 49ers, running backs like Marve Hubbard and Delvin Williams were the main cogs on offens - it seems to me with all the rule changes - the fullback/TE/Wr guy is now the main workhorses in Kyles new offense. When the FB goes out on pass route (on a 3 wide formation), I don't see that any different than being in a 4 wide spread attack, in the sense that the fullback/TE is that 4th "WR." I just think that when the FB/TE lines up in the backfield or at the end of the line, the formation is much more difficult from a defensive standpoint to figure out whether it's a pass or a run play. Kittle has WR speed at 4.52/40 - he's going to be a very interesting player to watch in pre-season considering Vance hasn't developed as fast as I though he would.

When it comes to the passing game, I think today's TE can serve multiple roles, depending on his skillset and what the offense requires him to do. Generally speaking, I think today's slot WR now serves the same purpose as the 80s Bill Walsh RB/FB in the passing game. Replacing a RB with a slot WR just puts the player closer to the line of scrimmage so that he has a "head start" into his route. Instead of coming out of the backfield, he's already at the line of scrimmage. The slot WR and the 80s RB coming out of the backfield serve similar purposes - catch high percentage passes.

When Kyle was in HOU, Owen Daniels was a possession type of TE. So was Chris Cooley in WAS. Both Daniels and Cooley were around 3rd in targets in those offenses while averaging around 12 yards per catch. Signs of a possession pass catcher type of role. The outliers for Kyle are Jordan Cameron in CLE who averaged over 17 yards per catch - that's playmaker status, not possession TE. Last season in ATL, the TE didn't seem like a big part of the passing game as he started using RBs more in the passing game. I'm looking just at number of targets.

It'll be interesting how Kyle uses his TEs and RBs in the 49er passing game. Both number of targets and yards per catch will tell us how he envisions the TE role. Knowing him, he'll just use each player to their strengths. To me, both Vance and Kittles seem to be more suited to attack downfield. Not run a bunch of stick routes, curls, and other short routes over the middle of the field like a Jason Witten. Although I don't know much about Kittles just that he's a freak athlete. It seems like every team is looking for that TE that is a mismatch downfield.

Add Juice to that mix as well. We don't have one bigger body at WR (ZWR) in the mold of traditional WCO teams (no Julio Jones) and in fact, we went the micro-WR route instead. This to me, might be an indication of using a lot of 2 TE looks (both run and pass) with a ton of passes going to those TE's as well as the RB's and FB (who can line up anywhere). If we're going to use a bunch of shifty, quick and fast WR's for go's and crossing patterns and posts, etc. the TE's, FB and RB's might end up being where Kyle is looking to scheme the mismatches towards. If we keep 4 FB/TE's and 4 RB's, you may be able to bank on the majority of the passing targets going there (at least for this year).

Originally posted by thl408:
When it comes to the passing game, I think today's TE can serve multiple roles, depending on his skillset and what the offense requires him to do. Generally speaking, I think today's slot WR now serves the same purpose as the 80s Bill Walsh RB/FB in the passing game. Replacing a RB with a slot WR just puts the player closer to the line of scrimmage so that he has a "head start" into his route. Instead of coming out of the backfield, he's already at the line of scrimmage. The slot WR and the 80s RB coming out of the backfield serve similar purposes - catch high percentage passes.

When Kyle was in HOU, Owen Daniels was a possession type of TE. So was Chris Cooley in WAS. Both Daniels and Cooley were around 3rd in targets in those offenses while averaging around 12 yards per catch. Signs of a possession pass catcher type of role. The outliers for Kyle are Jordan Cameron in CLE who averaged over 17 yards per catch - that's playmaker status, not possession TE. Last season in ATL, the TE didn't seem like a big part of the passing game as he started using RBs more in the passing game. I'm looking just at number of targets.

It'll be interesting how Kyle uses his TEs and RBs in the 49er passing game. Both number of targets and yards per catch will tell us how he envisions the TE role. Knowing him, he'll just use each player to their strengths. To me, both Vance and Kittles seem to be more suited to attack downfield. Not run a bunch of stick routes, curls, and other short routes over the middle of the field like a Jason Witten. Although I don't know much about Kittles just that he's a freak athlete. It seems like every team is looking for that TE that is a mismatch downfield.

I think Shanahan has always made use of what he has and adapted his approach to his personnel, I expect him to do the same with the 49ers.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Big Mac has a drop problem, but with put the numbers in front of me, it seemed like most of his drops were Kap's bullets. He seemed to handle Gabbert's gently tossed pies just fine, Im curious to see what Hoyer serves up, and if Mac can hold on to them.

Golitta, have to admit i wondered that sometimes, if vance had trouble with the bullet at 6 yards. Have nothing to prove it but did wonder about it. Neither QB was worth a rip, but vance seemed to have trouble with the "heaters",

Neither Qb was alll that accurate, but Kap's passes just got there sooner.

Yeah, I was hoping one of the nerdy kids here would do some stat work for me.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by thl408:

When it comes to the passing game, I think today's TE can serve multiple roles, depending on his skillset and what the offense requires him to do. Generally speaking, I think today's slot WR now serves the same purpose as the 80s Bill Walsh RB/FB in the passing game. Replacing a RB with a slot WR just puts the player closer to the line of scrimmage so that he has a "head start" into his route. Instead of coming out of the backfield, he's already at the line of scrimmage. The slot WR and the 80s RB coming out of the backfield serve similar purposes - catch high percentage passes.

When Kyle was in HOU, Owen Daniels was a possession type of TE. So was Chris Cooley in WAS. Both Daniels and Cooley were around 3rd in targets in those offenses while averaging around 12 yards per catch. Signs of a possession pass catcher type of role. The outliers for Kyle are Jordan Cameron in CLE who averaged over 17 yards per catch - that's playmaker status, not possession TE. Last season in ATL, the TE didn't seem like a big part of the passing game as he started using RBs more in the passing game. I'm looking just at number of targets.

It'll be interesting how Kyle uses his TEs and RBs in the 49er passing game. Both number of targets and yards per catch will tell us how he envisions the TE role. Knowing him, he'll just use each player to their strengths. To me, both Vance and Kittles seem to be more suited to attack downfield. Not run a bunch of stick routes, curls, and other short routes over the middle of the field like a Jason Witten. Although I don't know much about Kittles just that he's a freak athlete. It seems like every team is looking for that TE that is a mismatch downfield.

I think Shanahan has always made use of what he has and adapted his approach to his personnel, I expect him to do the same with the 49ers.

Yep. I think since no position group is dominant we're gonna have a very balanced attack and exploit matchups based on who we play. For example VS Carolina...I think we showed last year they're good at playing everything in front of them. Gonna have to beat them with the TEs and WRs to open up the underneath.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Big Mac has a drop problem, but with put the numbers in front of me, it seemed like most of his drops were Kap's bullets. He seemed to handle Gabbert's gently tossed pies just fine, Im curious to see what Hoyer serves up, and if Mac can hold on to them.

Golitta, have to admit i wondered that sometimes, if vance had trouble with the bullet at 6 yards. Have nothing to prove it but did wonder about it. Neither QB was worth a rip, but vance seemed to have trouble with the "heaters",

Neither Qb was alll that accurate, but Kap's passes just got there sooner.

Agree

And w/much more velocity

Which, IMO, was "partly" the reason Vance dropped so many Kap passes.

I also think another part was his focus on the ball. He often seems to try and run before completing the catch.

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Agree

And w/much more velocity

Which, IMO, was "partly" the reason Vance dropped so many Kap passes.

I also think another part was his focus on the ball. He often seems to try and run before completing the catch.

Maybe he should have paid more attention to Vernon Davis and he could use the patented bunny hop to aid in catching ability.

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Big Mac has a drop problem, but with put the numbers in front of me, it seemed like most of his drops were Kap's bullets. He seemed to handle Gabbert's gently tossed pies just fine, Im curious to see what Hoyer serves up, and if Mac can hold on to them.

Golitta, have to admit i wondered that sometimes, if vance had trouble with the bullet at 6 yards. Have nothing to prove it but did wonder about it. Neither QB was worth a rip, but vance seemed to have trouble with the "heaters",

Neither Qb was alll that accurate, but Kap's passes just got there sooner.

Agree

And w/much more velocity

Which, IMO, was "partly" the reason Vance dropped so many Kap passes.

I also think another part was his focus on the ball. He often seems to try and run before completing the catch.

For no particular reason, I like this kid, and I hope better coaching, better play calling, and better quarterbacking, will make him a better player.

I like a 1-2 punch with McDonald and Kittles. Both are good blockers, and both can be good catching. I like Paulsen as a 3rd TE, and Hikutini as a 4th. Bell and Celek need to be traded if possibly. Celek I think we could get like a 5th round pick for, Bell is a mystery but perhaps we could do something where we trade Bell+ a 7th for a teams 6th round pick? It's not much value, but moving up a round is good.