There are 84 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Are we gradually switching to a 4-3 defense?

Reading the article on Coach Tomsula watching Tank Carradine and having dinner with him is curious. He is more of a 4-3 DE at this point. Then, thinking about the Dorsey signing, who is more of a 4-3 DT. Seems the personnel would work if you put J. Smith, Dorsey at DT, A. Smith and Carradine at DE, Brooks, Willis, Bowman as linebackers. Seems like an offense's worst nightmare...
We are more of a hybrid front then a 34 or 43 defense. Our defensive front is very versatile so that gives us an advantage of switching up our schemes. If I remember correctly, Willis played as a 43 lb in college and Bowman was a olb in penn state. Dorsey played a 43 defense at lsu but he also played 34 at KC. So if we do get Carradine, I don't think we will have to change our defense at all
How often do we even use our "base" 3-4 package?
  • Bodhi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 68
Originally posted by 49erRider:
How often do we even use our "base" 3-4 package?

Not often. We run a 2-4-5 nickel most of the time
http://www.ninersnation.com/2012/11/1/3585574/49ers-snap-count-through-the-first-half-of-2012

And against teams like Green Bay that's basically all we run
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/1/15/3877342/49ers-vs-packers-vs-falcons-nfc-championship-game-2013-snap-count
no we're just switching to what the rest of the league is, multiple fronts on D. nobody stays in one type of D all the time now.
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
The "traditional" two-gap 3-4 defense is nearly extinct. There are some from the Parcells coaching tree that still use two gap principles, like Belichik, but even they use multiple fronts and 4-3 principles now.

The reason is that the rise of the passing game forces DCs to adjust. They worry less about gap control in the run game and instead use the odd front to one gap because getting penetration is far more important in today's NFL.

Basically, 3-4 defenses look at the same type of players a 4-3 defenses now.

In the specific case of Carradine, he is too light at the moment to play DE in a 3-4, but can easily be a situational rusher in even front looks his rookie year while he adds weight. That or he can convert to OLB and rotate to keep the pass rush fresh. I don't know where he'd be drafted (we can all only guess at this point), but even if it is with the first round pick it isn't a bad idea to have extra pass rushers. Just look at how much it has helped the Giants.
Originally posted by Wodwo:
The "traditional" two-gap 3-4 defense is nearly extinct. There are some from the Parcells coaching tree that still use two gap principles, like Belichik, but even they use multiple fronts and 4-3 principles now.

The reason is that the rise of the passing game forces DCs to adjust. They worry less about gap control in the run game and instead use the odd front to one gap because getting penetration is far more important in today's NFL.

Basically, 3-4 defenses look at the same type of players a 4-3 defenses now.

In the specific case of Carradine, he is too light at the moment to play DE in a 3-4, but can easily be a situational rusher in even front looks his rookie year while he adds weight. That or he can convert to OLB and rotate to keep the pass rush fresh. I don't know where he'd be drafted (we can all only guess at this point), but even if it is with the first round pick it isn't a bad idea to have extra pass rushers. Just look at how much it has helped the Giants.

Very well put.
  • Garcia
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 27,370
no
The plan is to let aldon bulk up and keep his hand in the dirt. Dude can't cover lol. Really we run a mix of everything we have a 3-4 and 4-3 and 2-4 and 1-5 with justin standing at nose, and so on. Just depends on the play call and the matchups. Teams have to pass, which puts a 3-4 team into a 2-4 and takes the fat nose off the field for a extra db. But i feel were looking for a 5 tech to replace justin. thinking is let the kid sit and learn, take a few snaps from justin to rest him, but mainly to learn and bulk under Cowboy!
[ Edited by TheGoldDiggerrrr on Apr 22, 2013 at 3:47 AM ]
Seems like our defense cant stay in a base 3-4 defense ...too many teams get pass happy , and go multiple WR's on us to limit how many of our playmaking LB's we keep on the field ....which is why we play a lot of 4-2-5 ....if we played a lot of teams that stuck to a base offense ..we would play more 3-4 ...but since so many teams plan heavily with the pass against us ...we gotta roll with the changes every week .....but we are lucky we have the players to be a versatile unit
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Seems like our defense cant stay in a base 3-4 defense ...too many teams get pass happy , and go multiple WR's on us to limit how many of our playmaking LB's we keep on the field ....which is why we play a lot of 4-2-5 ....if we played a lot of teams that stuck to a base offense ..we would play more 3-4 ...but since so many teams plan heavily with the pass against us ...we gotta roll with the changes every week .....but we are lucky we have the players to be a versatile unit

I think the 4-2-5 or 2-4-5 (semantics) are our base defense. And ideally, each of the 4 lineman (down or up) should be adept at rushing the passer. Which precludes us from going with the 330+ lb NT and looking for multiple 290 lb DEs along the line, and have them become interchangeable.

Sheldon Richardson, Datone Jones, Margus Hunt, Tank Carradine all fit the bill.
Agree with Buff, that this is a case of semantics. Basically you run a 3-4 to disguise where the blitz is coming from. We used the blitz twice in the SB. So why run a 3-4?
Well, we don't, we run a hodge podge of 3-4 , 4-3, and as noted above 2-4-5. Still there was no reason to have two of our best LBs on the sideline in the SB because of the O schemes Ravens were running...er. passing. If we run a 3-4, then darn it blitz from that. Otherwise, run the 4-3, and blitz as much as possible. And no more our two best LBs on sideline. Let 'em play...they can cover and rush and stop the run.
Originally posted by Wodwo:
The "traditional" two-gap 3-4 defense is nearly extinct. There are some from the Parcells coaching tree that still use two gap principles, like Belichik, but even they use multiple fronts and 4-3 principles now.

The reason is that the rise of the passing game forces DCs to adjust. They worry less about gap control in the run game and instead use the odd front to one gap because getting penetration is far more important in today's NFL.

Basically, 3-4 defenses look at the same type of players a 4-3 defenses now.

In the specific case of Carradine, he is too light at the moment to play DE in a 3-4, but can easily be a situational rusher in even front looks his rookie year while he adds weight. That or he can convert to OLB and rotate to keep the pass rush fresh. I don't know where he'd be drafted (we can all only guess at this point), but even if it is with the first round pick it isn't a bad idea to have extra pass rushers. Just look at how much it has helped the Giants.

This.

Beat me to it. One of the issues Dorsey had in KC was that he was asked to two-gap. He wasn't asked to do that in college.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Seems like our defense cant stay in a base 3-4 defense ...too many teams get pass happy , and go multiple WR's on us to limit how many of our playmaking LB's we keep on the field ....which is why we play a lot of 4-2-5 ....if we played a lot of teams that stuck to a base offense ..we would play more 3-4 ...but since so many teams plan heavily with the pass against us ...we gotta roll with the changes every week .....but we are lucky we have the players to be a versatile unit

I think the 4-2-5 or 2-4-5 (semantics) are our base defense. And ideally, each of the 4 lineman (down or up) should be adept at rushing the passer. Which precludes us from going with the 330+ lb NT and looking for multiple 290 lb DEs along the line, and have them become interchangeable.

Sheldon Richardson, Datone Jones, Margus Hunt, Tank Carradine all fit the bill.

I like your thinking here. I would say that there is still one 300+ lb DL that they should consider and that is Jesse Williams. He is a bigger guy, but he still has the athletic ability to play anywhere along the line. However, guys like John Jenkins, Kwame Geathers, TJ Barnes, and even Brandon Williams should be off the Niners wish list.
Originally posted by Garcia:
no

This man speaks the truth