There are 133 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Dorsey gives us a ferocious 4-3 front on passing downs!

Originally posted by kidash98:
Originally posted by FunkNinerFlex:
Originally posted by cools:


Could we see somthing like this ala Seifert? kind of a cross between 3-4 and 4-3 without needing a true 3-4 type NT

The inside guys playing 1 and 3 tech, A.Smith as the Elephant, Willis shines with the freedom as a Wil

Wouldn't Bowman be the WIl?

I can see this happening. But will wait until we see who else we sign and draft. And yes, Bowman would be the Wil.

- 98

5-2-4 Front would be effective for getting extra pressure without giving up vs the pass:

Aldon Smith___Justin Smith___Glen Dorsey___Ray Mac___Ahmad Brooks

Pat Willis____________Navarro Bowman
Originally posted by mebemused:
Mike Sando has an interesting read on the defensive scheme implications of Dorsey's signing:

Again, I don't think the 49ers are suddenly going to unveil a 4-3 base defense. But they do have flexibility with their personnel. They could be headed in that direction. As Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. noted when I reached out to him Wednesday, Smith was a 4-3 defensive end coming out of college. Ray McDonald was seen as an up-the-field lineman. The fact that Smith and McDonald have flourished in a 3-4 reflects well on them and on defensive line coach Jim Tomsula. There's precedent for Dorsey to make a transition, too.

On the other hand, Dorsey appears ideally suited for a 4-3 defense. That was the word on him as the fifth pick of the 2008 draft and that remained the word on him heading into free agency. And the 49ers do have the personnel to become more of a 4-3 team on defense should they choose to head in that direction.

"I could see McDonald as a three-technique type and maybe Dorsey as one-technique," Williamson said. "Ahmad Brooks could project as a 'SAM' linebacker pretty easily and Bowman would be great as the 'WILL'. Justin Smith could be a strong-side end, Aldon Smith could play the weak side. They do have the personnel."

We ran a 4-3, in our nickel and a 4-2 in our dime packages on 70% of our D snaps last year.

Sando also mentions that the Pats, one of the original 3-4 teams moved to a hybrid with more 4-3 fronts partially because of personnel, and partially because the 3-4 has become so popular, that it is now easier and cheaper to get 4-3 players in the draft. Its a good read:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/74001/glenn-dorsey-and-3-4-questions-for-49ers

Sando should get an account and post in NT.

4-3. lol
Originally posted by cools:


Could we see somthing like this ala Seifert? kind of a cross between 3-4 and 4-3 without needing a true 3-4 type NT

The inside guys playing 1 and 3 tech, A.Smith as the Elephant, Willis shines with the freedom as a Wil


Bingo, we Flexed Aldon a lot. It plays as a 4-3 but is easily jumped into and out of with our personel
Originally posted by cools:


Could we see somthing like this ala Seifert? kind of a cross between 3-4 and 4-3 without needing a true 3-4 type NT

The inside guys playing 1 and 3 tech, A.Smith as the Elephant, Willis shines with the freedom as a Wil


That's basically the defense we play right now. Our NT's are not asked to play 0 technique (over the center). Aldon moves around like the elephant.
I was thinking now with Dorsey, Carradine, Dial, and Lemeniore we have even more flexibilty up front 3/4 or 4/3 is very doable withour set of DLmen and rush LBs.
Originally posted by ninerfan1984:
I was thinking now with Dorsey, Carradine, Dial, and Lemeniore we have even more flexibilty up front 3/4 or 4/3 is very doable withour set of DLmen and rush LBs.

it's nice to have the versatility to throw different looks at a defense ...2014 is looking so bright I gotta wear shades
  • Garcia
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,427
I thought we got rid of Dorsey years ago?

Originally posted by cools:


Could we see somthing like this ala Seifert? kind of a cross between 3-4 and 4-3 without needing a true 3-4 type NT

The inside guys playing 1 and 3 tech, A.Smith as the Elephant, Willis shines with the freedom as a Wil

This defense was great. We lack the big bodied run plugger at MLB to run it. Hacksaw, Millin, Plummer, we don't have that body on the roster. I think Bowmen would eventually find himself injured trying to stuff up the middle. I would hate to see him or Willis spend to much time on the sideline.
Originally posted by Frisco69ers:
5-2-4 Front would be effective for getting extra pressure without giving up vs the pass:

Aldon Smith___Justin Smith___Glen Dorsey___Ray Mac___Ahmad Brooks

Pat Willis____________Navarro Bowman

Isn't this a little light up front?

275 + 285 + 295 + 290 + 240

If we play that a lot won't we get hurt bruised and dinged?

Like last year?
VERY interesting thread for me. That diagram closely resembles the 4-3 Under scheme that I'd been an advocate of for years. I think it could be an outstanding implementation. (meaning, the 4-3 elephant now vs the 4-3 Under that Pete Carroll employs... since we didn't necessarily focus on acquiring that 1-tech that we would badly need) Maybe we have that in Ian Williams or possibly 5th round pick Dial... but it's hard to say.

Anyway, I think we have the personnel to kick arse with this Seifert reincarnation... and I think Fangio's experience can pull off just about any scheme adjustment.

One note - We'd likely have to still use a DL like Ian W. or Dial as the 1-tech run stuffer in more obvious run situations against teams with power backs. RayMac has the versatility to play that LE spot on given situations where we want to mix in "more beef" inside at LDT.

I would regard Dorsey as the 3-tech backup at RDT that gives Justin more rest. Justin would still be "the man", and play most downs... but Dorsey could help keep Justin fresh and prolong his career.

Aldon would be the same (or better) beast as that RE/Elephant... with Carradine getting some reps to help Aldon when needed. (then Carradine bulks up through the year and next offseason to prepare for more RDT action behind Justin)

This gives our stud ILBs more room to roam free and clean up. Brooks weighs around 255 and is in great shape... much improved athleticism. He would be an excellent SLB playing closer to the line. He stuffs the run and funnels runners back inside well already, and is quicker now to handle the short zones in the pass game. (no, we don't want him running deep with TEs and RBs on seam or wheel routes though) He also has lots of looks running the arc to attack QBs.

This Seifert scheme... just like the Carroll scheme... makes it VERY hard for offenses to block the right side of the line... which happens to possess our 2 best pass rush terrors in Justin and Aldon.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
VERY interesting thread for me. That diagram closely resembles the 4-3 Under scheme that I'd been an advocate of for years. I think it could be an outstanding implementation. (meaning, the 4-3 elephant now vs the 4-3 Under that Pete Carroll employs... since we didn't necessarily focus on acquiring that 1-tech that we would badly need) Maybe we have that in Ian Williams or possibly 5th round pick Dial... but it's hard to say.

Anyway, I think we have the personnel to kick arse with this Seifert reincarnation... and I think Fangio's experience can pull off just about any scheme adjustment.

One note - We'd likely have to still use a DL like Ian W. or Dial as the 1-tech run stuffer in more obvious run situations against teams with power backs. RayMac has the versatility to play that LE spot on given situations where we want to mix in "more beef" inside at LDT.

I would regard Dorsey as the 3-tech backup at RDT that gives Justin more rest. Justin would still be "the man", and play most downs... but Dorsey could help keep Justin fresh and prolong his career.

Aldon would be the same (or better) beast as that RE/Elephant... with Carradine getting some reps to help Aldon when needed. (then Carradine bulks up through the year and next offseason to prepare for more RDT action behind Justin)

This gives our stud ILBs more room to roam free and clean up. Brooks weighs around 255 and is in great shape... much improved athleticism. He would be an excellent SLB playing closer to the line. He stuffs the run and funnels runners back inside well already, and is quicker now to handle the short zones in the pass game. (no, we don't want him running deep with TEs and RBs on seam or wheel routes though) He also has lots of looks running the arc to attack QBs.

This Seifert scheme... just like the Carroll scheme... makes it VERY hard for offenses to block the right side of the line... which happens to possess our 2 best pass rush terrors in Justin and Aldon.


How do you see the snap tallies breaking down with our new personnel? I worry that any configuration that puts the Smiths over 700-800 will result in the same effects as last year.

You didn't mention Lemonier. Don't you see him as a more natural fill in for Aldon than Carradine?
  • DVDA
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,332
I'm not sure if you're serious when you say we ran the 4-3 as the nickel and 4-2 as the dime. The 4-3 is not a nickel defense. The nickel is a defense with 5 defensive backs on the field. It's most commonly a 4-2-5, but could also be a 3-3-5, 2-4-5, or 1-5-5. The dime has one more defensive back on the field. It's most commonly a 4-1-6, but could also be a 3-2-6, 2-3-6, or 1-4-6.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
How do you see the snap tallies breaking down with our new personnel? I worry that any configuration that puts the Smiths over 700-800 will result in the same effects as last year.

You didn't mention Lemonier. Don't you see him as a more natural fill in for Aldon than Carradine?

I think you nailed it down fairly well... have not given that a ton of thought, but yeah, Ray and Justin had over 1000 snaps a piece... that has to go down a bit. 700-800 should be fine. Those guys are work-out warriors and in great shape for that.

Lemonier is an interesting guy in the mold of a baby Brooks. He is athletic... can run the arc well... and can come in at DE every now and then in our obvious pass downs. Lem just needs to improve on his run contain. Brooks also had over a thousand snaps... way too many. My hope is that our offense can be more dynamic with putting up points that we don't feel so pressed into that stubborness of 1000+ snaps for these guys.
Obviously who we play will dictate the type of scheme but clearly we finally have some real depth and like-players. For instance:
  • Lemonier is a clone of Brooks - I have little doubt Lemonier will be Brooks' SAM backup and spell him this year there.
  • Dial is an ideal LDE for McDonald
  • Carradine is an ideal RDE/OLB for both Justin and Aldon (more Justin)
  • Dorsey may be able to play better than Sopoaga (more versatile with more potential) and we're hoping Williams is even better than RJF. And don't forget Lamar Divens who's 6'3" 340 pounds (like Ice)

I think there is a strong rotation you can now provide for the DL and OLB's. It lends to various combinations and personnel packages/flexibility now. For instance:
Seattle - power running team with a mobile QB always looking for the deep ball. They loved to run left right at Justin/Aldon.
Formations - Here is a lineup where you may use a bigger NT like Divens to occupy two gaps while also allowing McDonald to shoot gaps on the left side and move Doresy to RDT coupled with Justin (RDE). Then on passing downs, you could bring in Lemonier for Brooks (SAM), Dial for McDonald (LDE), Dorsey (NT), Carradine (RDT) and Aldon (WILL) to contain Wilson and get after him under 3 seconds.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 1, 2013 at 9:53 AM ]
Originally posted by Garcia:
I thought we got rid of Dorsey years ago?


That pic makes me sick!