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Smith, Tolzien thread. Yet again

Originally posted by drakan:
everyone agrees that Harbaugh took a huge gamble benching Smith. Will his gamble pay off? We'll find out tomorrow night.

It already has.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

Kaep was horrible against Seattle and struggled against the Rams (which have an underated defense). The Bears have a good defense but at the time, there was limited tape on Kaep and it was believed that Alex would start. The other Ds have been middle of the pack. In the end, I think the bigger problem is Roman and not the QB.




made by qnhan
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Originally posted by THEB:
English im tellin ya man, just make an unmoderated, no holds barred QB thread. That way all the junk stays in there and you dont have to worry about it anymore. People can talk all the crap they want there.

Its obvious that people still want to talk about Smith Vs. Kaep, and threads will just keep getting closed. In stead of forcing the discussion (fighting) out, why not just supply a place for it?

Bad idea based on the assumption that the stuff will stay in there. It never stays in one spot. English is right, the river of slime is real and when s**t hits the fan, " who you gonna call?"
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

so basically your rebuttal is that Smith doesn't pass your eye test.

Not just mine. Like I said, we will see how much he commands in trade or free agency if we let him go. Smart coaches don't bench a top 10 QB, especially one that isn't old. Unless Harbaugh is an idiot.

Don't forget, the game to game stats show Alex as inconsistent.

you still don't get the NFL qb stats do you.

Every qb has a bad game thrown in here and there. Kaep has had bad games, Brady, Rodgers, Manning and all the rest to boot. We can all pick apart any given game.

But the NFL qb stats averge these things out for a reason. A qb rating is a reflection of the overall level of performance, period. Its not your eye test or bias, its real life data which is not subject to bias.

Some don't want to give him credit were credit is do so so be it but lets not redifine what the qb rating is telling us.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by Jtninerfan210:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Difficulty of throw couldn't possibly have any affect on that, right? Stats don't always translate which is why he is on the bench. A team that has WRs get wide open More times than not would thrive with Alex. He's also not a very WR friendly QB so the team must have top middle of the field targets.

Good grief! Now we are accounting for difficulty of the throws and the size of the window he threw into!!!!???? Hey AS has a higher redzone td % than Kaep, but that doesn't count because Kaep makes plays outside the redzone thus he's better <-- so seems to go the "logic" of some.

JoeCool is the staple of the Zone. It's best not to touch his posts, but more like admiration from afar for his anti-Smith affinity.



I am seriously a believer of stats translating to production on the field. Alex Smith's stats do not translate to production on the field. Then when you actually watch him play, you realize there are some things he is not doing which explains it. The All 22 footage caught a lot of Alex's short-comings.

Also, if he is so efficient, so accurate,...then why was he sooo inconsistent from game to game?
I've watched every Niner game for the last 10+ years so I can tell you that I've seen all of our QBs in that time span have shortcomings on the field. Through all of AS's time in the last few years he has been consistent when it comes to diagnosing what the defense is doing and taking what they give him. Why are people so enamored with a gunslinger type of QB when a consistent smart QB can win? I'm a Niner guy through and through and I tend to back up any player wearing our teams colors...this is why I don't get the hatred for the fella. It's pretty sad joecool that you will try to find anything and everything to nitpick AS over, yet I can almost guarantee you that if we lose tomorrow because of Kaep you will avoid placing blame at his feet.

Can you explain how this math works, subtraction by addition? The team has succeeded in subtracting our identity and strongest asset (The inconvenient truth) so as to add a new wrinkle with Kaep. If anyone can explain how that's even logical I wouldn't be so frustrated with this team since after the Bears game. And anyone with a minimal football IQ could see that Kaep was going to have a fine 1st couple of games simply because he's a baller, and because the defenses hadn't gained footage of him yet.

What is our identity anyways? Are we a smash mouth team anymore, because I don't think that we are. I get the feeling that we are trying to be more like a prolific high flying Saints type of team rather than what has been a proven formula for us. I remember how excited I was watching our team come out in a million and 1 formations each week running exotic shifts and motions so as to gain the edge. Now I'm literally cussing out the tv everytime I see that damn shotgun read option crap!!!
Originally posted by drakan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

so basically your rebuttal is that Smith doesn't pass your eye test.

kaerpnick desnt pass my smell test
Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by drakan:
everyone agrees that Harbaugh took a huge gamble benching Smith. Will his gamble pay off? We'll find out tomorrow night.

It already has.

if you think so then you need higher standards
[ Edited by hofer36 on Jan 11, 2013 at 8:07 PM ]
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

Kaep was horrible against Seattle and struggled against the Rams (which have an underated defense). The Bears have a good defense but at the time, there was limited tape on Kaep and it was believed that Alex would start. The other Ds have been middle of the pack. In the end, I think the bigger problem is Roman and not the QB.

kaepernick didnt do anything vs gianst defense either
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Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

Kaep was horrible against Seattle and struggled against the Rams (which have an underated defense). The Bears have a good defense but at the time, there was limited tape on Kaep and it was believed that Alex would start. The other Ds have been middle of the pack. In the end, I think the bigger problem is Roman and not the QB.

kaepernick didnt do anything vs gianst defense either

Which Giants defense??

San Francisco Giants or New York Giants cause he didn't play against any of them.
[ Edited by Kolohe on Jan 11, 2013 at 11:48 PM ]
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

Kaep was horrible against Seattle and struggled against the Rams (which have an underated defense). The Bears have a good defense but at the time, there was limited tape on Kaep and it was believed that Alex would start. The other Ds have been middle of the pack. In the end, I think the bigger problem is Roman and not the QB.

kaepernick didnt do anything vs gianst defense either

Which Giants defense??

San Francisco Giants or New York Giants cause he didn't play against any of them.

Don't remember all the 3rd and long situations he created? That is convenient.
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Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by drakan:
W-L Record
Alex Smith 6-2
Colin Kaepernick 5-2-1

Completion Percentage
Alex Smith 70.2%
Colin Kaepernick 62.4%

Average Yards per Game
Alex Smith: 207
Colin Kaepernick: 215

Both had the same receivers to work with. Since you're insinuating that Smith only makes easy passes while Kaepernick is launching bombs downfield. Why bother with the difficult passes when you can just make easy completions since both yield pretty much the same result.

They don't yield the same results. Smith's game has been inconsistent game to game. His game has also vastly dropped off when he's played better defenses. Like I said, the stats will not show why Colin is more dangerous to a top ranked defense. Top ranked defenses have eaten Alex alive more often...but in the past it was blamed on the WR's. It's because he won't make that downfield throw to an NFL open receiver. Versus the better defenses, all you're going to get is tight windows.

And then this comes all back to the "he's limited" conclusion. He can pretty up all the stats for you, but his on-field play is limited.

Kaep was horrible against Seattle and struggled against the Rams (which have an underated defense). The Bears have a good defense but at the time, there was limited tape on Kaep and it was believed that Alex would start. The other Ds have been middle of the pack. In the end, I think the bigger problem is Roman and not the QB.

kaepernick didnt do anything vs gianst defense either

Which Giants defense??

San Francisco Giants or New York Giants cause he didn't play against any of them.

Don't remember all the 3rd and long situations he created? That is convenient.

When??

Seriously I'm confused.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
So what happened to the last thread? Do you guys just delete it entirely where it can't be read anymore?

If you saw Ghostbusters, you will recall the river of red slime which was causing negativity and all the rest of it.

Like them, we have to carefully secure the Alex Smith threads to spare us all from the pulsing waves of negative emotion and evil which throbs from it. Stuff has a half life of 3 billion years, give or take, and all the Alex Smith threads have to be contained in psychically charged areas for that time. In 3 billion years they can be deleted. If we did it before then, the negative energy would destroy the Webzone and possibly the entire planet.

the only salve is ring # 6... can u do it, Jim and C3PO? .......... nothing else... will... suffice.
Originally posted by Jtninerfan210:
I've watched every Niner game for the last 10+ years so I can tell you that I've seen all of our QBs in that time span have shortcomings on the field. Through all of AS's time in the last few years he has been consistent when it comes to diagnosing what the defense is doing and taking what they give him. Why are people so enamored with a gunslinger type of QB when a consistent smart QB can win? I'm a Niner guy through and through and I tend to back up any player wearing our teams colors...this is why I don't get the hatred for the fella. It's pretty sad joecool that you will try to find anything and everything to nitpick AS over, yet I can almost guarantee you that if we lose tomorrow because of Kaep you will avoid placing blame at his feet.

Can you explain how this math works, subtraction by addition? The team has succeeded in subtracting our identity and strongest asset (The inconvenient truth) so as to add a new wrinkle with Kaep. If anyone can explain how that's even logical I wouldn't be so frustrated with this team since after the Bears game. And anyone with a minimal football IQ could see that Kaep was going to have a fine 1st couple of games simply because he's a baller, and because the defenses hadn't gained footage of him yet.

What is our identity anyways? Are we a smash mouth team anymore, because I don't think that we are. I get the feeling that we are trying to be more like a prolific high flying Saints type of team rather than what has been a proven formula for us. I remember how excited I was watching our team come out in a million and 1 formations each week running exotic shifts and motions so as to gain the edge. Now I'm literally cussing out the tv everytime I see that damn shotgun read option crap!!!


How is Smith more consistent? His lowest three QB ratings were 43.1, 74.5, 78.1. Kaep's lowest three QB ratings were 72.0, 83.9, 84.7.

And look at who's more consistent by quarter...

Kaep QB rating:
1st Quarter 106.3
2nd Quarter 85.2
3rd Quarter 108.4
4th Quarter 98.8

Smith QB rating:
1st Quarter 99.1
2nd Quarter 109.6
3rd Quarter 122.7
4th Quarter 67.4

Kaep takes fewer sacks, fewer INT's, fewer turnovers, more YPG, more YPP, has a higher QBR, equal in touchdowns scored (both running and passing), is a far better runner, with a far better arm, with better accuracy, and he has been more consistent. Smith has the QB rating by a couple points and completion %, both of these stats are helped by the fact that he takes more sacks and doesn't attempt difficult throws.

With almost every conceivable stat, Kaep is better. With every physical attribute, Kaep is better. With team chemistry, we see Kaep laughing it up with his players on the sideline like we have rarely seen with Smith.

And how many times have you seen us do the read option the last few games? We have almost removed it entirely. We have probably done more audibles, shifts, and exotic formations with Kaep than with Smith.
[ Edited by BrianGO on Jan 12, 2013 at 3:28 AM ]