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Week 16: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by susweel:
Im not gonna over analyze this game Im just gonna say they wanted it more than our guys did.

Ditto. Starting Alex over Kaep would have made zero difference. The final score still would have been the final score.

The only problem I have with Marvin's review is this one line: "The Niners had better find a way to beat that team in Seattle or they are going to be thorn in our collective sides for years to come."

CORRECTION: Marvin, they ARE a thorn in our collective sides. They have already arrived. They will continue to be a thorn for quite some time. The 80's team had to battle it out with the Reams for division supremacy. This time, in this decade, it's the Hags. It's about time Seattle got themselves a team. Those folks up north have waited long enough.

Not true, Alex Smith has played in Seattle many times and he has played well in Seattle, the crowd played a part in this game, and Kaep has never played in Seattle vs the Seahawks and was not ready for what he was in for. To say is made ZERO difference makes zero sense.

The defense did play poor and Seattle played very well on both sides of the ball, I feel we would have had a better chance of winning one or maybe both of these games with Alex Smith at QB.

The problem is I think we had a better chance to win with Kaep as QB vs NE and the Bears.

I've seen Alex play some fairly horrific football in Seattle. The season opener from two years ago comes to mind.

But we've all seen Alex play some pretty horrific football. He improved vastly under Harbaugh, no doubt about that.

I just don't think his starting the game would have made one iota of difference. As Marvin pointed out in his review, there were many reasons why we lost that game. Mistakes by the QB wasn't one of them.

agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.
getting too cute by Roman may have cost the Niners the bye. The pitch fumble in the Rams game defines it better than anything. If you have the game won--don't be foolish.

In the Seattle game, Seattle has a fast D, the Niners needed to play smash mouth and wear them down and rely on the defense. I don't think the defense was up to it however. Seattle no longer has their immobile QB but Russell Wilson. You have to give Seattle credit in that regard, they have found a gem, a difference maker at QB.
The NFC west is going to be a very tough division for years to come. You have to keep getting better and the Niners in 2012 did not get better. Neither did Arizona. Seattle and the Rams got better. In 2013--we shall see.
Originally posted by 49erJim:
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by susweel:
Im not gonna over analyze this game Im just gonna say they wanted it more than our guys did.

Ditto. Starting Alex over Kaep would have made zero difference. The final score still would have been the final score.

The only problem I have with Marvin's review is this one line: "The Niners had better find a way to beat that team in Seattle or they are going to be thorn in our collective sides for years to come."

CORRECTION: Marvin, they ARE a thorn in our collective sides. They have already arrived. They will continue to be a thorn for quite some time. The 80's team had to battle it out with the Reams for division supremacy. This time, in this decade, it's the Hags. It's about time Seattle got themselves a team. Those folks up north have waited long enough.

Not true, Alex Smith has played in Seattle many times and he has played well in Seattle, the crowd played a part in this game, and Kaep has never played in Seattle vs the Seahawks and was not ready for what he was in for. To say is made ZERO difference makes zero sense.

The defense did play poor and Seattle played very well on both sides of the ball, I feel we would have had a better chance of winning one or maybe both of these games with Alex Smith at QB.

The problem is I think we had a better chance to win with Kaep as QB vs NE and the Bears.

I've seen Alex play some fairly horrific football in Seattle. The season opener from two years ago comes to mind.

But we've all seen Alex play some pretty horrific football. He improved vastly under Harbaugh, no doubt about that.

I just don't think his starting the game would have made one iota of difference. As Marvin pointed out in his review, there were many reasons why we lost that game. Mistakes by the QB wasn't one of them.

agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.
Yeah, after rewatching it, it was horrific performance, one of the worst from any QB of ours I've ever seen. I've explained his play ad nauseum already, so I won't go back there again, but it's good to see others actually analyzed his performance and saw that it was not good.

That said, I hope Kap recovers for playoff time. We really need him to step up if we're going to win the superbowl.
Originally posted by SJniner7:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by SJniner7:
I don't get why they are using this pistol crap so much. Did we use all of that in the Chicago game? I remember a very traditional looking ground and pound offense in that game, but now we are using this crap that is not working.

Taking advantage of Kaep's talent. But the good defenses around the NFL aren't cooperating.

Am I wrong here though, the pistol seems very easy to defend with the "spy" linebackers. Our offense against the Bears did not utilize the pistol at all, and we were extremely well balanced and successful.

Roman added the pistol to the offense repertoire because of Kaep's talent in conjunction with the regular offense. Like you, I don't think it's working like they thought it would. And like the WildKaep earlier in the year, it just ended up looking like a wasted play.
Originally posted by 49erJim:
agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

lol you blaming our players getting hit on the QB. Come on man players get hit all the time you cant blame the QB for that. VD had no reason to jump for that ball, and manningham was just a bad low hit. Those plays happen every game.
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I agree with much of what you say, but I disagree about the difference being at QB.

Whether it was Alex or CK would not have mattered in the last game as long as the offensive game plan relied on presnap shifts and motion, and throwing the ball instead of running it.

The decision to come out throwing the ball was a coaching mistake, independent of who was at QB. IMHO

I wan't it to be clear I was only saying why I think we COULD have had a better chance, not that we most definitely would have won.

I think time management is a huge issue. Harbaugh has lived off the motto of us "Imposing our will" and to me we have lost that part of our game because we have taken away the run game. We're now coming out hoping for a big play, and it's not happening. Well it did against NE, but I feel we caught them completely off guard with our vertical routes. We have our running back in shotgun formation. That's not Frank Gore.

Not saying go completely away from the pistol, but we need less of it. IMO we need to go back to jumbo sets, and pound it down their throats. At that point if the running game is getting you nowhere, you can at least play off of play action and get a better feel for what a defense is trying to do. It's what has made us successful the last year and a half and we aren't even using it that much anymore.

To me we are not good enough to be sitting here experimenting. As I said we need to go back to our bread and butter. And that was how we played with Alex. Again not saying bench Kaep cause I feel Kaep could be a lot more efficient if we actually went back to that. It would put less pressure on him and the offense as a whole.

If you go back and look at our losses everyone of them have come from them pounding the rock. It was our winning formula for a long time, and now we seem to be getting too cute.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by SJniner7:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by SJniner7:
I don't get why they are using this pistol crap so much. Did we use all of that in the Chicago game? I remember a very traditional looking ground and pound offense in that game, but now we are using this crap that is not working.

Taking advantage of Kaep's talent. But the good defenses around the NFL aren't cooperating.

Am I wrong here though, the pistol seems very easy to defend with the "spy" linebackers. Our offense against the Bears did not utilize the pistol at all, and we were extremely well balanced and successful.

Roman added the pistol to the offense repertoire because of Kaep's talent in conjunction with the regular offense. Like you, I don't think it's working like they thought it would. And like the WildKaep earlier in the year, it just ended up looking like a wasted play.
The pistol is a college offense all college offenses are easy to defend. They are gimmicks that work once in a while if used that way but we are now running it as our base. Why? Last year we passed out of the jumbo package a couple of times and it worked. We also ran the fly sweep about once a game and it worked. Why because teams did not really game plan for those Gimmick plays now they are game planning for the Pistol and it is easy to stop our power running game that is try to run a read option. Gore averaged 6 yards per carry out of our base through Chicago he is averaging much less since with a year long average that has dropped 1.2 yards per carry to 4.8. When is the last time you saw a trap or Fb lead with a wham block from Walker. In the Pistol we have too many 2 receiver routes.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I agree with much of what you say, but I disagree about the difference being at QB.

Whether it was Alex or CK would not have mattered in the last game as long as the offensive game plan relied on presnap shifts and motion, and throwing the ball instead of running it.

The decision to come out throwing the ball was a coaching mistake, independent of who was at QB. IMHO

I wan't it to be clear I was only saying why I think we COULD have had a better chance, not that we most definitely would have won.

I think time management is a huge issue. Harbaugh has lived off the motto of us "Imposing our will" and to me we have lost that part of our game because we have taken away the run game. We're now coming out hoping for a big play, and it's not happening. Well it did against NE, but I feel we caught them completely off guard with our vertical routes. We have our running back in shotgun formation. That's not Frank Gore.

Not saying go completely away from the pistol, but we need less of it. IMO we need to go back to jumbo sets, and pound it down their throats. At that point if the running game is getting you nowhere, you can at least play off of play action and get a better feel for what a defense is trying to do. It's what has made us successful the last year and a half and we aren't even using it that much anymore.

To me we are not good enough to be sitting here experimenting. As I said we need to go back to our bread and butter. And that was how we played with Alex. Again not saying bench Kaep cause I feel Kaep could be a lot more efficient if we actually went back to that. It would put less pressure on him and the offense as a whole.

If you go back and look at our losses everyone of them have come from them pounding the rock. It was our winning formula for a long time, and now we seem to be getting too cute.
I agree, time management is a huge issue. Alex Smith had his share of problems with it when he was in there.

Really, you make some good points, but your argument about the QBs confuses the issue.

I'd really like to see them go to the 15 play opening script that Bill Walsh invented. It would eliminate the clock management issue, at least to start with. The QB would know the script, and wouldn't have to wait for the call from the OC.

And scripting out those first 15 plays allows the OC, QB, HC, QB coach, etc., to mentally rehearse the offensive game plan ahead of time and tweak it to take advantage of the other team's weaknesses. Not sure it would have mattered in the last game, but it wouldn't have hurt and might have helped.

Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

lol you blaming our players getting hit on the QB. Come on man players get hit all the time you cant blame the QB for that. VD had no reason to jump for that ball, and manningham was just a bad low hit. Those plays happen every game.


are you kaepernick's agent or attorney?
[ Edited by hofer36 on Dec 26, 2012 at 12:15 PM ]
Originally posted by 49erJim:
Disagree with you Marvin, Alex Smith would have had a better game vs the Rams and vs the Seahawks. The 49ers would have won one of those games with Alex Smith as QB. He knows both teams way better then Kaep and plays very well in Seattle. This is what happens when you screw around late in the season with the QB's. Jimmy H is not perfect he's made mistakes and this one was huge. We win one of those games and were the 2nd seed, now we need some help to make the 2nd seed.


i think smith vs seattle might not have equated to a win but i think the niners play a different game offensively with him, the pace of the game is slower and the score is much closer than it was
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

lol you blaming our players getting hit on the QB. Come on man players get hit all the time you cant blame the QB for that. VD had no reason to jump for that ball, and manningham was just a bad low hit. Those plays happen every game.
Actually Collingsworth blamed Kap too.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

lol you blaming our players getting hit on the QB. Come on man players get hit all the time you cant blame the QB for that. VD had no reason to jump for that ball, and manningham was just a bad low hit. Those plays happen every game.
The ball needed to get to VD faster. I dont blame Keap for the injury, it wasn't an "error" per se but watching the game with my father in law, who played TE in college thought the same thing.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

lol you blaming our players getting hit on the QB. Come on man players get hit all the time you cant blame the QB for that. VD had no reason to jump for that ball, and manningham was just a bad low hit. Those plays happen every game.
The ball needed to get to VD faster. I dont blame Keap for the injury, it wasn't an "error" per se but watching the game with my father in law, who played TE in college thought the same thing.

Agreed. Davis was wide open, the ball just took too long getting there. Floated the ball pretty badly.
Originally posted by 49erJim:
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by susweel:
Im not gonna over analyze this game Im just gonna say they wanted it more than our guys did.

Ditto. Starting Alex over Kaep would have made zero difference. The final score still would have been the final score.

The only problem I have with Marvin's review is this one line: "The Niners had better find a way to beat that team in Seattle or they are going to be thorn in our collective sides for years to come."

CORRECTION: Marvin, they ARE a thorn in our collective sides. They have already arrived. They will continue to be a thorn for quite some time. The 80's team had to battle it out with the Reams for division supremacy. This time, in this decade, it's the Hags. It's about time Seattle got themselves a team. Those folks up north have waited long enough.

Not true, Alex Smith has played in Seattle many times and he has played well in Seattle, the crowd played a part in this game, and Kaep has never played in Seattle vs the Seahawks and was not ready for what he was in for. To say is made ZERO difference makes zero sense.

The defense did play poor and Seattle played very well on both sides of the ball, I feel we would have had a better chance of winning one or maybe both of these games with Alex Smith at QB.

The problem is I think we had a better chance to win with Kaep as QB vs NE and the Bears.

I've seen Alex play some fairly horrific football in Seattle. The season opener from two years ago comes to mind.

But we've all seen Alex play some pretty horrific football. He improved vastly under Harbaugh, no doubt about that.

I just don't think his starting the game would have made one iota of difference. As Marvin pointed out in his review, there were many reasons why we lost that game. Mistakes by the QB wasn't one of them.

agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

I haven't rewatched the game Jim, so I'll have to go with your assessment of how badly CK7 played. If you claim he did, then he did and we'll leave it at that.

But he wasn't to blame for those long TD drives. He wasn't to blame for Marshawn leaving cleat marks on our defense. And he certainly wasn't to blame for a blocked field goal that led to a Seahawks TD.

Those three quick scores took away the best weapon CK7 has: the run game. He was forced to pass early and often and that's never a good sign, for any QB, experience or no experience.

Could he have played better? Based on your assessment after watching the game again, I'll believe you on that point. He probably could have.

But it wouldn't have changed the outcome, Jim. Marshawn still would have left cleat marks on the defense. Fangio still would have been forced to play his safeties close to the line, leaving one-on-one coverage that Seattle's QB exploited all night long. You can make the claim that Alex would have played better, and you might be right.

But it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game. Kaep didn't lose it. He certainly didn't do anything to win it. But you can't lay this one at his feet. Far too many other things went wrong on this night.
Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by 49erJim:
agree with most of your post but to say that Mistakes by the QB was not one of the reasons we lost that game is wrong. I have watched the game over as well and if you rewatch the game you will see that Kaep had a very very bad game.

He was almost picked off 2 times in the endzone, and a few other times as well, he almost got VD killed and did end up getting Mario killed and over for the season. Very bad lead passes and late passes all night long.

I could go on and on about other plays from our QB play in that game but will leave it there......it was one of the worse overall games the 49ers have ever played and QB play was at the top of the list in this game.

lol you blaming our players getting hit on the QB. Come on man players get hit all the time you cant blame the QB for that. VD had no reason to jump for that ball, and manningham was just a bad low hit. Those plays happen every game.
The ball needed to get to VD faster. I dont blame Keap for the injury, it wasn't an "error" per se but watching the game with my father in law, who played TE in college thought the same thing.

Agreed. Davis was wide open, the ball just took too long getting there. Floated the ball pretty badly.
I wouldn't say badly, we all know VD has a tendency to go up when he shouldn't. Keap needs to learn when to throw a rocket or drop it in easy.