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QB Attribute and Intangible Chart to Measure Current and Potential QB Ratings

Originally posted by fryet:
Any rating system has flaws, but I think you end up overvaluing the head part of things when you have 3 very similar items listed separately. Also, I would disagree with your review of Alex. We agree that he is intelligent. I would also rate his Football IQ very high - he is very good at presnap reads. For decision making, he rarely throws INT plus has a high completion percentage, which indicates that he makes good decisions. Where he lacks is in playmaking ability. He chooses the safe throw, rather than throw into a tight window and risk an INT.

To put this another way. Do you think that Alex Smith doesn't see that a player is open, or do you think that he sees that the player is open, but is too afraid to throw it? One is an issue of intelligence. The other is courage or moxy.

Could be a moxie deficiency, but I think he really didn't see Randy along the back of the end zone. Pre-snap reads are more IQ than feel for the game--I think Alex was SO smart he was able to compensate for his lack of "instinct" so to speak, both with recognizing tendencies pre snap and generally having good decision making skills. But it was a learned attribute, not an intrinsic one-- he didn't instinctively do these things, he had to think about them. That split second can be the difference between a broken play turning out well and being a loss, and Alex didn't have a great track record on broken plays.

I'm not trying to knock Alex. I still really like him. I also understand what you're saying about overvaluing the "head part" so maybe you don't need 3 categories. Maybe you don't even need 2. If that's the case I would take football IQ over regular IQ, though I still think the latter can compensate for lack of the former up to a point.
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Originally posted by ninermedic:
I'm not trying to knock Alex. I still really like him. I also understand what you're saying about overvaluing the "head part" so maybe you don't need 3 categories. Maybe you don't even need 2. If that's the case I would take football IQ over regular IQ, though I still think the latter can compensate for lack of the former up to a point.
I agree that all that matters is football IQ. Regular IQ can help you get there, and maybe compensate for a lack of "instinct", but in the end, all that matters is whether you are making the correct decisions on the field.

Frank Gore could be the poster child for the difference between regular IQ and football IQ. He may be below average in intelligence, but he has a very high football IQ. Whether or not he is book smart or learns quickly has not had any impact on his ability to make great decisions on the field. In my mind, he is the smartest RB in the league.
instincts
intuition
courageous
intensely competitive
accuracy
timing,
throwing a ball with touch so it is catchable
anticipation
complete inventory of passes
quick delivery
reading defenses
mobility
feel the pass rush
ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time
http://www.sportsxchange.com/DS97/walsh/walsh2qb.htm
Originally posted by fryet:
With my rating system, here is how I would rate Alex Smith and CK:

Alex Smith:
Size/Durability - 4 - height is adequate, but he has had an above average share of injuries
Speed - 6
Elusiveness - 2 - takes too many sacks, and doesn't move well in pocket
Arm Strength - 5
Accuracy (short) - 8 (This has been an area of amazing improvement for Alex Smith)
Accuracy (long) - 3
Release Time - 6
Ball Security - 10
Playmaking Ability - 2 - he doesn't want to risk the INT so takes the safer throw, or if no one is clearly open, takes a sack
Football IQ - 10
Charisma - 5
Clutchness - 6 - we have seen it less this season, but Alex Smith won a lot of games in the 4th quarter
Work Ethic - 10
Offfield Behavior - 10
Touch - 8 - hard to grade this, but I think Alex Smith throws a catchable ball now

CK:
Size/Durability - 7 - too soon to say that he is durable
Speed - 10
Elusiveness - 8 - relies more on his speed than making people miss
Arm Strength - 10
Accuracy (short) - 8
Accuracy (long) - 8 (I tend to want to say he is 10, when comparing to Alex Smith, but Brady was better)
Release Time - 3
Ball Security - 5 (has done well with INT, but I cringe when I see him hold the ball away from his body when running)
Playmaking Ability - 7
Football IQ - 5 - impressive for a rookie, but he still has a lot to learn
Charisma - 7
Clutchness - 6 - he plays well in the 4th quarter, but I don't think he has won the game in the last 2 minutes yet
Work Ethic - 8 - maybe higher, but not quite ready to give him a 10
Offfield Behavior - 5 - no issues here, but not quite ready to call him an angel
Touch - 2 - we all know that he throws the ball hard

for the most part agree, but I would change the following for Kaep:
work ethic - 10 (i think he works harder than Smith. Reports were he's always the 1st one in the morning in the gym)
offfield behavior - 7 (sets a foundation for kids with heart diseases)
touch - 5 (still needs work, but i think his touch is not that far from Smith's)
Originally posted by fryet:
Originally posted by ninermedic:
I'm not trying to knock Alex. I still really like him. I also understand what you're saying about overvaluing the "head part" so maybe you don't need 3 categories. Maybe you don't even need 2. If that's the case I would take football IQ over regular IQ, though I still think the latter can compensate for lack of the former up to a point.
I agree that all that matters is football IQ. Regular IQ can help you get there, and maybe compensate for a lack of "instinct", but in the end, all that matters is whether you are making the correct decisions on the field.

Frank Gore could be the poster child for the difference between regular IQ and football IQ. He may be below average in intelligence, but he has a very high football IQ. Whether or not he is book smart or learns quickly has not had any impact on his ability to make great decisions on the field. In my mind, he is the smartest RB in the league.

Great example, he has an amazing knack for just "feeling" where the hole is going to open up and being there. Beyond just field vision or knowledge of play design. Very desriable attribute for an aging RB too because it can compensate for wear and tear/ eroding physical skills.
Are we assuming a median middle? Because the extremes would throw off the scaling. For example, a 5'8 quarterback compared to a 6'2 quarterback is a much larger difference than a 6'2 quarterback compared to a 6'8 quarterback.

Size - 3 -- Relatively, not much historical correlation. Of course any extreme (5'10 or 6'10, for example) completely adjusts the importance of an attribute.
Speed - 2 -- I don't see any historical reason to think speed is a NECESSARY trait for a quarterback, although it can be a huge bonus if you have it.
Agility - 3 -- Same as above. For example, Tom Brady has horrible speed and agility, but is EXCELLENT at avoiding a pass rush with his feet.
Arm Strength - 6 -- Historically not that important. Of course, like everything else above it helps to have it.
Accuracy - 10 -- Here comes the problem with the scaling. IMO, accuracy is far more important than all the stats above combined. Is this only going to count for 10 "points"?
Release Time - 8 -- Really helps a quarterback out a lot.
Decision Making - 7 -- A worse decision can be mitigated with a superior throw.
Ball Security - 4 -- I assume this means fumbling, etc, and not interceptions?
Playmaking Ability - 10 -- To me, this is what football is all about.
Football IQ - 1 -- Isn't this redundant to decision making?
Intelligence - 1 -- Decision making? Who cares how "smart" you are if you make perfect football decisions? Again, it seems redundant.
Leadership - 7 -- Important, but not everything.
Clutchness - 10 -- This is important.
Attitude - 1 -- Isn't this redundant to leadership?
Work Ethic - 1 -- If you are the laziest person in the world, but have 10's in every other stat, who cares? Assuming you actually show up to play the games of course.

I think "pocket presence" and the ability the throw "while moving" (not necessarily while running) are extremely important, but they are difficult to scientifically define. Also, there is no "vision" attribute; the ability for a quarterback to actually read the field. You have to be able to know what's going on before you can make a decision. Perhaps you can call it "perception".
[ Edited by BrianGO on Dec 22, 2012 at 3:57 AM ]
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Originally posted by BrianGO:
Are we assuming a median middle? Because the extremes would throw off the scaling. For example, a 5'8 quarterback compared to a 6'2 quarterback is a much larger difference than a 6'2 quarterback compared to a 6'8 quarterback.

Size - 3 -- Relatively, not much historical correlation. Of course any extreme (5'10 or 6'10, for example) completely adjusts the importance of an attribute.
Speed - 2 -- I don't see any historical reason to think speed is a NECESSARY trait for a quarterback, although it can be a huge bonus if you have it.
Agility - 3 -- Same as above. For example, Tom Brady has horrible speed and agility, but is EXCELLENT at avoiding a pass rush with his feet.
Arm Strength - 6 -- Historically not that important. Of course, like everything else above it helps to have it.
Accuracy - 10 -- Here comes the problem with the scaling. IMO, accuracy is far more important than all the stats above combined. Is this only going to count for 10 "points"?
Release Time - 8 -- Really helps a quarterback out a lot.
Decision Making - 7 -- A worse decision can be mitigated with a superior throw.
Ball Security - 4 -- I assume this means fumbling, etc, and not interceptions?
Playmaking Ability - 10 -- To me, this is what football is all about.
Football IQ - 1 -- Isn't this redundant to decision making?
Intelligence - 1 -- Decision making? Who cares how "smart" you are if you make perfect football decisions? Again, it seems redundant.
Leadership - 7 -- Important, but not everything.
Clutchness - 10 -- This is important.
Attitude - 1 -- Isn't this redundant to leadership?
Work Ethic - 1 -- If you are the laziest person in the world, but have 10's in every other stat, who cares? Assuming you actually show up to play the games of course.

I think "pocket presence" and the ability the throw "while moving" (not necessarily while running) are extremely important, but they are difficult to scientifically define. Also, there is no "vision" attribute; the ability for a quarterback to actually read the field. You have to be able to know what's going on before you can make a decision. Perhaps you can call it "perception".

Excellent points. I think breaking accuracy down into long-accuracy, short-accuracy, and touch will give added importance to the category as fryet suggested.
Interesting post BUT I just don't have the time to stay w/it.
I was thinking about doing one of these but comparing QB's to cars.

Kap's like as Dodge Viper, fast as heck, and helluva performance car but still raw.
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Originally posted by HaiGuise:
I was thinking about doing one of these but comparing QB's to cars.

Kap's like as Dodge Viper, fast as heck, and helluva performance car but still raw.

That shall be the final comparison after all grades are in. You can be in charge of that if you'd like.
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Okay, so far I've taken both Fryet and Brian's suggestions and updated the original post. Please let me know any other changes before we move forward to rating QB's. Maybe we can do a mock, where a number of posters draft a starting QB from each team and rate them. Let me know if that idea interests anyone.
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I've also tried to apply weight to each category in parenthesis at the end of their descriptions. This should be closer. Still looking for more feedback before we get started.
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So here's the list so far with the importance multiplier.

Length (x2)
Durability (x6)
Speed (x3)
Agility (x3)
Arm Strength (x7)
Accuracy (short-medium) (x10)
Accuracy (deep) (x7)
Touch (x3)
Vision (x7)
Pocket Presence (x6)
Release Time (x8)
Ball Security (x4)
Playmaking Ability (x9)
Decision Making/Intelligence/Football IQ (x10)
Leadership/charisma/attitude (x9)
Clutchness (x10)
Work Ethic (x8)
[ Edited by AmpLee on Dec 22, 2012 at 1:53 PM ]
You can't measure Kaep's intangibles because they are off the charts
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[ Edited by AmpLee on Dec 22, 2012 at 12:33 PM ]