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Why do you guys think our offense looked lame?

Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by verb1der:
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

It's a new age offense and folks need to have a little patience in it like they had with Alex! There's some bumps for sure, but ultimately Kaep is 3-1, so something's gotta be working.

is it wise to be implementing an installation phase in the middle of a season with a team that went to the NFCCG the year before?

Definitely not wise, but really gutsy. Look, I don't want to incite anything here, but the Giants reminded us in Week 6, that last year's 49ers team is not going anywhere this year! And apparently 49ers coaching staff took notice and felt they need to do something more.
Originally posted by RishikeshA:
The offense is evolving, all the pieces are in place with the possible exception of a burner at wide-out. The major question the team faces on the playoff road is if the passing attack can carry the load as defenses gear up to slow the running game down. Manningham is an integral part of the offense.

Have needed that of years. Perhaps Jenkins can fill that need.

Also, Kaepernick's inexperience in the pocket and in checking out of plays.

Penalties, penalties, penalties. No well-coached team should be having this many penalties.

Harbaugh/Roman relying too much on gimmicks and formations rather than execution.
Thanks NC--nice set of points to ponder! I have wanted a more open offense but we have a house of mirrors history here in SF. We have had a number of offensive styles over the years that could be quite effective if it were maintained for a few years...but they weren't.

McCarthy--more traditional WCO. Multiple WRs, with a solid running game, spreading the field and keeping the defense honest through diversity in play calling.

Turner--digit system, multiple WRs sets with one back. A bit more vertical in nature than the WCO and we see SD using the system with mixed results.

Martz--no TE, get the QB killed, multiple WRs times more WRs and an all purpose back. Smith was out for Martz' time with the team but maybe it was good for his health that he was.

Raye--1970's cutting edge offense with traditional sets and plays to be found on old Atari football games. QB friendly and interesting if called with some imagination or if the play caller didn't have to be awakened between downs.

Roman--Jumbo version of three yards and a cloud of dust. If two three hundred and fifty pound guys were good in a four foot space--why not add three more? The offense incorporates WCO, Spread, Pistol and the Woody Hayes Ohio State offense from the late sixties...all at the same time, moving from one to another with grace of a pregnant gazelle. Will they get all working seemlessly, or will they discover having all the plans means no plan.

This is posted with tongue in cheek but it is confusing to try and figure what direction the team is going offensively. It appears they want defenses to think they can use any play ever invented at any time...if it confuses the defense more than their own players...all will be good...sorta.
Originally posted by verb1der:
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

It's a new age offense and folks need to have a little patience in it like they had with Alex! There's some bumps for sure, but ultimately Kaep is 3-1, so something's gotta be working.

My pleasure! You may be onto something in that we are in the middle of a transition to a new type of offense...a less predictable one as Bellicheck alluded to b/c of his versatility.

I'm not ready to make that claim quite yet. I haven't seen anything to contrary to what we ran before with Alex and the production is about the same, as are the W's. I'm guessing it's more to do with Roman and who he's game planning for week-to-week...and new talent added to that equation (e.g. college kid like James).

As to the versatility piece...my preference, if we are going to a younger, more athletic QB with a cannon arm, I want to see some WCO plays with 3, 5 & 7-step drops and versatility WITHIN the passing game. That added element of pocket presence, escapability and scrambling ability, I only want to see utilized to create a more effective passing game...not running game. We already have that with Gore, James, etc. and clearly it is our strength. It's the passing game that needs to be elevated above the play of Alex's (former offense) to truly strike fear of "balance" and "unpredictability" in a DC's mind.

Otherwise, and we're seeing this already, playoff teams will just gear up to stop the run (which includes CK) and not worry too much about a sub 200-yard passing game and maybe 1 throwing TD. Teams already know we're going ultra conservative in the RZ. Teams are already seeing the pre snap problems, penalties, him being coached "down" with every passing game, etc. Keep everything in front.

One could even make the argument that the element of James was the scariest thing for the Dolphins DC. Why? B/c if James could run off tackle, suddenly, that opens up our #1 weapon in Gore inside and...no irony here...CK on his TD run off tackle (of which the defense pinched inside trying to defend Gore).

I'm not saying we shouldn't use CK and his legs as a weapon once in a while...it's another added weapon. But the focus for him, as a young QB should be on perfecting a passing game and utilizing all of our weapons (e.g. this speaks more to Roman and the 3-headed monster who contribute to the game plan each week).

CK's talents, IMHO, should be used, like Steve Young, to help increase our passing game...to compliment our running game, our defense and our special teams. Nothing is more difficult to defend than a well-oiled and balanced machine (team)!
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 13, 2012 at 6:06 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Thanks NC--nice set of points to ponder! I have wanted a more open offense but we have a house of mirrors history here in SF. We have had a number of offensive styles over the years that could be quite effective if it were maintained for a few years...but they weren't.

McCarthy--more traditional WCO. Multiple WRs, with a solid running game, spreading the field and keeping the defense honest through diversity in play calling.

Turner--digit system, multiple WRs sets with one back. A bit more vertical in nature than the WCO and we see SD using the system with mixed results.

Martz--no TE, get the QB killed, multiple WRs times more WRs and an all purpose back. Smith was out for Martz' time with the team but maybe it was good for his health that he was.

Raye--1970's cutting edge offense with traditional sets and plays to be found on old Atari football games. QB friendly and interesting if called with some imagination or if the play caller didn't have to be awakened between downs.

Roman--Jumbo version of three yards and a cloud of dust. If two three hundred and fifty pound guys were good in a four foot space--why not add three more? The offense incorporates WCO, Spread, Pistol and the Woody Hayes Ohio State offense from the late sixties...all at the same time, moving from one to another with grace of a pregnant gazelle. Will they get all working seemlessly, or will they discover having all the plans means no plan.

This is posted with tongue in cheek but it is confusing to try and figure what direction the team is going offensively. It appears they want defenses to think they can use any play ever invented at any time...if it confuses the defense more than their own players...all will be good...sorta.

Nice summary of each offense...and makes me shake my head. As to Roman's offense, Chucky said it best, "I don't know what the heck it is..." In short, it sure isn't a WCO! Is it a revolutional offense? Stay tuned...but if it is, we've got a long long ways to go to master it and get to a level where it is hitting on all cylinders.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

It's a new age offense and folks need to have a little patience in it like they had with Alex! There's some bumps for sure, but ultimately Kaep is 3-1, so something's gotta be working.

My pleasure! You may be onto something in that we are in the middle of a transition to a new type of offense...a less predictable one as Bellicheck alluded too b/c of his versatility.

I'm not ready to make that claim quite yet. I haven't seen anything to contrary to what we ran before with Alex and the production is about the same, as are the W's. I'm guessing it's more to do with Roman and who he's game planning from week-to-week.

As to the versatility piece...my preference, if we are going to a younger, more athletic QB with a cannon arm, I want to see some WCO plays with 3, 5 & 7-step drops and versatility WITHIN the passing game. That added element of pocket presence, escapability and scrambling ability, I only want to see utilized to create a more effective passing game...not running game. We already have that with Gore, James, etc. and clearly is our strength. It's the passing game that needs to be elevated above the play of Alex's to truly strike fear of "balance" and "unpredictability" in a DC's mind.

Otherwise, and we're seeing this already, playoff teams will just gear up to stop the run (which includes CK) and not worry too much about a sub 200-yard passing game and maybe 1 throwing TD. Teams already know we're going ultra conservative in the RZ. Teams are already seeing the pre snap problems, penalties, him being coached "down" with every passing game, etc.

One could even make the argument that the element of James was the scariest thing for the Dolphins DC. Why? B/c if James could run off tackle, suddenly, that open up our #1 weapon in Gore inside and...no irony here...CK on his TD run off tackle (who pinched inside trying to defend Gore).

I'm not saying we shouldn't use CK and his legs as a weapon once in a while...it's another added weapon. But the focus for him, as a young QB should be on perfecting a passing game and utilizing all of our weapons. His talents, IMHO, should be used, like Steve Young, to help increase our passing game...to compliment our running game, our defense and our special teams. Nothing is more difficult to defend than a well-oiled and balanced machine (team)!

I sure hope he can in a couple days and for the next few weeks, because we were still running one read passing plays last week against dolphins. Most plays out of the pistol that were passing were one read targets, just ridiculous at the pro level, i firmly believe we need an OC in next year that has extensive NFL knowledge and experience, maybe we just have one bad passing game but two mediocre QB's, but honestly if a player isn't coached to do something they really wont do it unless they are truly great, a QB isn't going to go out and call his own plays against coaches orders a lot and such, so we really need direction on offense, it was very hit and miss under Alex, and now we have more option college type plays with kaep(which i personally really do not like, beat em the NFL way, WCO/ power run mix) and have Kaep learning new things in the fire probably.

To the young guy's credit he has only had one game where he cost us with horrible mistakes and has made little short slant throws etc nicely, but since the bears game nothing new has been brought, and nothing explosive aside from that couple runs either, there have been a couple nice passes that due to great arm strength got to Crabs in between defenders which i like, but if this is how we are going to play, just bring back the guy who is an expert at playing like this. Hell we may need to bring him back anyway if we don't get off the mat against NE and SEA.
Maybe we were using it so much because we knew we had the Patriots on the horizon and Harbaugh was practicing it against the Fins
  • vaden
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Originally posted by verb1der:
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

Yeah, they scored the same amount of points vs. the Giants as we did in the playoffs. Yet Alex continues to be lambasted for that while RG3 was praised to high heaven after that game (nevermind his fumble miraculously being recovered for a TD), with little credit given to the Redskins' superb defense.
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote:
Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Belichick-considers-Kaepernicks-impact?blockID=813067&feedID=3352

If you ask me, I think this QB drama has completely overshadowed the fact that the 49ers offense has evolved right before our eyes. It's innovating, in similar ways Kyle Shannahan is doing with RG3. It's just not as fluid because they're installing at mid-season, but it's going to get better!

The offense might seem boring to the average viewer but there is a method to the madness!

This might be the best post i have seen in the webzone in 6weeks. Great observation!
The answer is many reasons:

1. Regardless of who is at QB, Harbaugh/Roman have him in handcuffs.
2. Change of QBs means ironing out getting the plays in on time and all the timing is off. WR's not used to CKs velocity and ability to throw the ball when they are only slightly open.
3. Losing Hunter and Williams hurts.
4. We still have slow WRs that take a lot of time to get open.
5. Our offensive line while talented individually may be one of the worst at pass blocking as a unit.
6. We do not keep opposing defenses on their heals. Our offensive play calling is bland. How about an occasional screen pass or a 40 yard pass play? Only long pass completed that I can remember is the Kyle Williams play against the Bears.
7. Playbook filled full of Alex Smith type "game manager" plays....not CK plays (aside from some designed runs which I like).

Whatever the reason, it's FRUSTRATING and there is a lot of pressure on Harbaugh to fix it.
[ Edited by pete98146 on Dec 13, 2012 at 7:13 PM ]
Originally posted by pete98146:
The answer is many reasons:

1. Regardless of who is at QB, Harbaugh/Roman have him in handcuffs.
2. Change of QBs means ironing out getting the plays in on time and all the timing is off. WR's not used to CKs velocity and ability to throw the ball when they are only slightly open.
3. Losing Hunter and Williams hurts.
4. We still have slow WRs that take a lot of time to get open.
5. Our offensive line while talented individually may be one of the worst at pass blocking as a unit.
6. We do not keep opposing defenses on their heals. Our offensive play calling is bland. How about an occasional screen pass or a 40 yard pass play? Only long pass completed that I can remember is the Kyle Williams play against the Bears.
7. Playbook filled full of Alex Smith type "game manager" plays....not CK plays (aside from some designed runs which I like).

Whatever the reason, it's FRUSTRATING and there is a lot of pressure on Harbaugh to fix it.

I agree it is so frustrating it hurts sometimes, but its funny because it doesn't seem like there is much pressure on Harbaugh to fix it, the media doesn't ask him questions like "why does the offense stall at any adversity, or running plays are called the majority of Red Zone plays."

Even if he does get asked serious questions like that after a win especially he seems to shrug it off and imply there are many ways to win, which i agree, but if we dont evolve and become more potent we will just get figured out more and more and rely on a defense to win everything for us.

Its kind of sad because even the D players make comments like "We know who has to win this game." Because under Jim while i love winning it has been the D mostly contributing the load IMO. SOme days the O wakes up and def does its part, but often we win the defensive type games where our O doesnt score more than 20-24 and we hold teams to probably an average of 14 or so i think. Someone needs to pressure Harbaugh IMO, to get someone with more of an NFL pedigree to run the offense or at least infuse it with some fresh blood. One can dream i guess, i love winning but if we could just halfway match the intensity the D brings we would be a lot better.
So we were supposed to be explosive and now people are ok with boring? People are funny around these parts. I guess it's one way to admit they were wrong without admitting it.
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
So we were supposed to be explosive and now people are ok with boring? People are funny around these parts. I guess it's one way to admit they were wrong without admitting it.


Not ok with boring!!!!!!!!!!! I hope Harbaugh learns a lesson or two watching us play the Patriots. Can't rely solely on the defense and your kicker to win ball games.
Originally posted by jcashen87:
I agree it is so frustrating it hurts sometimes, but its funny because it doesn't seem like there is much pressure on Harbaugh to fix it, the media doesn't ask him questions like "why does the offense stall at any adversity, or running plays are called the majority of Red Zone plays."

Even if he does get asked serious questions like that after a win especially he seems to shrug it off and imply there are many ways to win, which i agree, but if we dont evolve and become more potent we will just get figured out more and more and rely on a defense to win everything for us.

Its kind of sad because even the D players make comments like "We know who has to win this game." Because under Jim while i love winning it has been the D mostly contributing the load IMO. SOme days the O wakes up and def does its part, but often we win the defensive type games where our O doesnt score more than 20-24 and we hold teams to probably an average of 14 or so i think. Someone needs to pressure Harbaugh IMO, to get someone with more of an NFL pedigree to run the offense or at least infuse it with some fresh blood. One can dream i guess, i love winning but if we could just halfway match the intensity the D brings we would be a lot better.

Maybe our QB is limited? The offense has regressed to a college style offense that our guy is familiar to. Unfortunately we're finding out the hard way why no one else is running this style of offense in the NFL.
[ Edited by paperplanemedia on Dec 13, 2012 at 8:16 PM ]
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

^^THIS^^
Bill is a defensive minded coach too. He knows it's not going to be easy defending the Niner's offense.