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Football Outsiders Breaks Down the 49ers-Rams Game in Detail

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
I'm sorry to bring this up but just goes to show that Harbaugh can make bad decisions. I'm more worried about him switching offenses in week 12, then a play call that if properly executed by players could have worked. You call that play expecting your guys to execute them. Can't blame the coach for putting trust in the QB in critical times. That's my take.


No No No.

In that game situation, that play should never be called under any circumstance. Its so risky that you're almost better off punting on third down!

Hindsight is 20/20. If that play gains 8 yards it would have been just a footnote post game about how creative the call was. To say that "In that situation that play call should never be made" is not true. There are certainly circumstances were that call might have been appropriate. Just not in that situation and executed that poorly.

Horrible call. There is no justification for that call.

The only response I have to that is the same thing I already wrote lol sooooooo.....

It doesnt make your response any more correct. Every fan, and nfl expert in the world watching that play had a collective cheek pucker at the time of that play. The second the motioned Ginn into the backfeild i knew it was going to be a stupid call. No excuse on that one. Even if it went for a lucky touchdown, i would be saying it was a questionable call, and that we were extremely lucky it worked. That play call, in that situation, is about as bad as they get.

Well ya ofcourse "every fan and NFL expert" watching that game had a "collective cheek pucker". It was a BOTCHED play. What botched play in the history of the NFL didn't get that reaction? By the same token what touchdown play has ever been called into question. "boy that screen bubble pass out to that flat that was intercepted for a pick six sure was the right call in that situation" or "That half-back draw for a 20 yard touchdown was not the correct play call in that situation".
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
I'm sorry to bring this up but just goes to show that Harbaugh can make bad decisions. I'm more worried about him switching offenses in week 12, then a play call that if properly executed by players could have worked. You call that play expecting your guys to execute them. Can't blame the coach for putting trust in the QB in critical times. That's my take.


No No No.

In that game situation, that play should never be called under any circumstance. Its so risky that you're almost better off punting on third down!

Hindsight is 20/20. If that play gains 8 yards it would have been just a footnote post game about how creative the call was. To say that "In that situation that play call should never be made" is not true. There are certainly circumstances were that call might have been appropriate. Just not in that situation and executed that poorly.

Horrible call. There is no justification for that call.

The only response I have to that is the same thing I already wrote lol sooooooo.....

It doesnt make your response any more correct. Every fan, and nfl expert in the world watching that play had a collective cheek pucker at the time of that play. The second the motioned Ginn into the backfeild i knew it was going to be a stupid call. No excuse on that one. Even if it went for a lucky touchdown, i would be saying it was a questionable call, and that we were extremely lucky it worked. That play call, in that situation, is about as bad as they get.

Well ya ofcourse "every fan and NFL expert" watching that game had a "collective cheek pucker". It was a BOTCHED play. What botched play in the history of the NFL didn't get that reaction? By the same token what touchdown play has ever been called into question. "boy that screen bubble pass out to that flat that was intercepted for a pick six sure was the right call in that situation" or "That half-back draw for a 20 yard touchdown was not the correct play call in that situation".

Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

It reminded me of the reverse in the NFCCG...
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by NCommand:
And these checks, are they from run to another run play or pass to another pass play or if the original play was a pass, he can switch it to a run and vice versa.

I ask b/c for the Rams game, it was beyond obvious the Rams would crowd the LOS and stack 8-9 guys in there (many run blitzing the A-gaps) yet no matter what CK called "kill" or "roll" we STILL just ran and ran right into a brick wall.

Does anyone know?

I don't know, I'm waiting for someone to analyze the run-blitzing that the Rams did.

But I am concerned that the loss of Kendall Hunter made the Rams cheat inside.

It was very smart game planning on their part. Everyone knows Gore is slow laterally and certainly doesn't have the speed to rush off tackle. They play a 4-3. They could ask their DE's to rush the passer and contain the edges while the two DT's can take on blockers and the LB's could exploit the A-gaps all day long. The CB's play with a cushion to ensure CK can only hit the check-downs, intermediate passes but ensure no RAC.

Ironically enough, this is the same game plan the Giants used x2, the Vikings and pretty much anyone else who plays us tight (Hawks) and is in the game until the end and/or beats us. The difference is that the Giants/Hawks will actually play more aggressively at the LOS and pound our receivers with their secondary. But same difference.

We're also a terrible ad lib team...and generally run the same outlet plays every time. The Rams even had a spy for CK just in case.

Without Hunter, Gore will continue to get beat up inside and teams will continue to exploit us in this same manner UNLESS Roman pulls his head out of his azz! There are a ton of WCO plays to combat this. But as much as I've watched Roman's offense, I continue to refer to it as the Anti-WCO overall.
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
I'm sorry to bring this up but just goes to show that Harbaugh can make bad decisions. I'm more worried about him switching offenses in week 12, then a play call that if properly executed by players could have worked. You call that play expecting your guys to execute them. Can't blame the coach for putting trust in the QB in critical times. That's my take.


No No No.

In that game situation, that play should never be called under any circumstance. Its so risky that you're almost better off punting on third down!

Hindsight is 20/20. If that play gains 8 yards it would have been just a footnote post game about how creative the call was. To say that "In that situation that play call should never be made" is not true. There are certainly circumstances were that call might have been appropriate. Just not in that situation and executed that poorly.

Horrible call. There is no justification for that call.

The only response I have to that is the same thing I already wrote lol sooooooo.....

It doesnt make your response any more correct. Every fan, and nfl expert in the world watching that play had a collective cheek pucker at the time of that play. The second the motioned Ginn into the backfeild i knew it was going to be a stupid call. No excuse on that one. Even if it went for a lucky touchdown, i would be saying it was a questionable call, and that we were extremely lucky it worked. That play call, in that situation, is about as bad as they get.

Well ya ofcourse "every fan and NFL expert" watching that game had a "collective cheek pucker". It was a BOTCHED play. What botched play in the history of the NFL didn't get that reaction? By the same token what touchdown play has ever been called into question. "boy that screen bubble pass out to that flat that was intercepted for a pick six sure was the right call in that situation" or "That half-back draw for a 20 yard touchdown was not the correct play call in that situation".

Kaep had the option to keep the ball and run it himself. It was questionable call that was badly executed. Plain and simple.

"I just pitched it high, it's my fault all the way," Kaepernick said. "I was trying to make a play. I should have played it safe. I should have just kept it, let the clock run, let our punter get on the field, let our defense play."

Indeed, San Francisco's defense played brilliantly, allowing just two field goals. The Rams' defense accounted for 10 points on a safety and the ill-conceived pitch play Harbaugh wishes he could get back.

"I gave up those points that were on the scoreboard for the Rams," Kaepernick said. "That's 100 percent my fault

At least he's man enough to admit his mistakes. Let hope he learns from them.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

So basically we should only trust his personnel decisions but not his play calls?
[ Edited by paperplanemedia on Dec 4, 2012 at 2:00 PM ]
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

It reminded me of the reverse in the NFCCG...

I hated how Kyle Williams was fielding punts from the very beginning. I was yelling at the TV telling them to make a change...Delanie Walker, anyone but Williams!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by NCommand:
And these checks, are they from run to another run play or pass to another pass play or if the original play was a pass, he can switch it to a run and vice versa.

I ask b/c for the Rams game, it was beyond obvious the Rams would crowd the LOS and stack 8-9 guys in there (many run blitzing the A-gaps) yet no matter what CK called "kill" or "roll" we STILL just ran and ran right into a brick wall.

Does anyone know?

I don't know, I'm waiting for someone to analyze the run-blitzing that the Rams did.

But I am concerned that the loss of Kendall Hunter made the Rams cheat inside.

It was very smart game planning on their part. Everyone knows Gore is slow laterally and certainly doesn't have the speed to rush off tackle. They play a 4-3. They could ask their DE's to rush the passer and contain the edges while the two DT's can take on blockers and the LB's could exploit the A-gaps all day long. The CB's play with a cushion to ensure CK can only hit the check-downs, intermediate passes but ensure no RAC.

Ironically enough, this is the same game plan the Giants used x2, the Vikings and pretty much anyone else who plays us tight (Hawks) and is in the game until the end and/or beats us. The difference is that the Giants/Hawks will actually play more aggressively at the LOS and pound our receivers with their secondary. But same difference.

We're also a terrible ad lib team...and generally run the same outlet plays every time. The Rams even had a spy for CK just in case.

Without Hunter, Gore will continue to get beat up inside and teams will continue to exploit us in this same manner UNLESS Roman pulls his head out of his azz! There are a ton of WCO plays to combat this. But as much as I've watched Roman's offense, I continue to refer to it as the Anti-WCO overall.

LMJ baby. TBH don't have a clue if the guy will be any good, but he does have similar skill sets to Hunter as far as speed and quickness go. Also would like to see what Jacobs can do. The guy can be an absolute beast at times. Don't see why we don't power run with him more often.
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

So basically we should only trust his personnel decisions but not his play calls?

I never said that ever. It was a horrible call.

That is all i have said. I have also said he needs to take a more hands on approach with roman and the play calling.

TBH, Harbaughs body of work in the NFL is too small to even be able to claim anything as far as his personnel decisions, or how he would fare as far as play calling from the sideline is concerned. The Jury is still out on Harbaugh. He had a great season last year, and a pretty damn good start this year. But alot of people here who were claming he as the best HC since Bill Walsh have severly jumped the gun. He is in his second year as HC.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

No attempt to sugar coat has been made. I am simply pointing out that the fact that everyone and their dog is making the play call to be alot worse than it acttually was. I find your claim that just the pre-snap formation and the fact Ginn was motioning out of it spelled doomed play all over it to be a slight stretch of the truth.
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

It reminded me of the reverse in the NFCCG...

I hated how Kyle Williams was fielding punts from the very beginning. I was yelling at the TV telling them to make a change...Delanie Walker, anyone but Williams!

To be fare, he hadnt touched a punt in longer than a year and a half when they put him back there. I put that more on coaching and personel decisions than i ever did on Williams. Williams looked pretty solid early this season before they pulled him for Ginn when he had the offseason to work on it. They should have went with Williams and never looked back this season.
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

No attempt to sugar coat has been made. I am simply pointing out that the fact that everyone and their dog is making the play call to be alot worse than it acttually was. I find your claim that just the pre-snap formation and the fact Ginn was motioning out of it spelled doomed play all over it to be a slight stretch of the truth.

Not a stretch in the slightest on the questionable formation and personnel decision, and no, people aren't making it out to be worse than it was. It was as bad as they get.

Also Ginn in any offensive formation, where the play is designed to go his way is a bad choice. Ginn has no buisness being on the field with the offense. Ever. Been that way for years.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Anyone that knows football and formations, had a collective pucker before the ball was snapped. Ginn motioned into the backfield.

Not only was the call questionable, but the personel on the field in that situation as questionable.

Look i like Harbaugh, but that play was one of the worst possible plays you can call in that situation. It was awful, there is no sugar coating it.

It reminded me of the reverse in the NFCCG...

I hated how Kyle Williams was fielding punts from the very beginning. I was yelling at the TV telling them to make a change...Delanie Walker, anyone but Williams!

To be fare, he hadnt touched a punt in longer than a year and a half when they put him back there. I put that more on coaching and personel decisions than i ever did on Williams. Williams looked pretty solid early this season before they pulled him for Ginn when he had the offseason to work on it. They should have went with Williams and never looked back this season.

Yeah, that's who I was yelling at (the coaches).
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Thats why i have been saying Harbaugh needs to take a more hands on approach to play calling instead of bickering with officials all game. I love his passion for the game, but its time to take a more hands on approach to his offense. This is not the first game of the Harbaugh/roman era where roman has made a questionable call and Harbaugh failed to veto it.

Roman has been the most brilliant OC in the NFL at times this year - observers of the NFL and fans of other teams have said so. "Perfectly-called run plays", for example. "More play call variety than anyone".

Wrong. The diverse run formations are a product of the play book. Not play calling. His actual game planning and play calling have been mediocre at time's. The diversity comes from being able to make adjustments at the line. I dont know if they are limiting Kaep in this regard, or if he is just not as efficient at finding the correct call at the LOS as Smith.

Just because he has the most diverse playbook in the NFL doesnt mean he is using it right.

Wasn't going to bring it up, but yeah I wonder this myself. How much of this offense is done through adjustments at the line? Many times we see these big runs or even big pass plays are due in part to a "kill, Kill" or "let it roll". I'm just really not sure if this is a big part of the offense or not. Should Kaep. be making more adjustments? Or like you say, is he not given the freedom too?

And these checks, are they from run to another run play or pass to another pass play or if the original play was a pass, he can switch it to a run and vice versa.

I ask b/c for the Rams game, it was beyond obvious the Rams would crowd the LOS and stack 8-9 guys in there (many run blitzing the A-gaps) yet no matter what CK called "kill" or "roll" we STILL just ran and ran right into a brick wall.

Does anyone know?

Both more than likely.

More than likely Roman makes a pair of calls. At the LOS the QB has a choice between those two calls weather two runs, a pass/run, or to passes.

But each of those calls have adjustments based on what the WR's, Olineman, and QB's see. So there is still even alot of variance between the two play calls. Routes based on coverage, blocking schemes based on Dline gap placement etc.

Its been said ROman usually gives them a pass play and a run play to choose from, i wish we had someone out there that could call any play as an audible at any time instead of just killing one or letting it roll with the other. There may be times where different audibles are called, i think against the Rams i heard CK say something like "Black 59 razor" not those words but a play call at the line other than kill kill.

But i have to agree with Ncommand, in this game many times i saw CK saying let it roll or kill when they crowded the line, we ran on almost all of them i can remember through stretches that i remember, im not saying its CK's fault, but it just kept pissing me off when we would still run when there was 8 or sometimes 9 in the box.

These are situations where even though i have been Critical of ALex in the past i feel he does well in, getting to the right run play is something he is great at, passing ehh not so much all the time. In the BEars game i saw CK kill it into a pass play on several of the big gainers, but haven't seen that proficiency since.

I think we honestly have an inconsistency problem at OC/Playcalling, and that we dont have the trust to put the QB out there and let him dictate more than just two playcalls.
Originally posted by jcashen87:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Thats why i have been saying Harbaugh needs to take a more hands on approach to play calling instead of bickering with officials all game. I love his passion for the game, but its time to take a more hands on approach to his offense. This is not the first game of the Harbaugh/roman era where roman has made a questionable call and Harbaugh failed to veto it.

Roman has been the most brilliant OC in the NFL at times this year - observers of the NFL and fans of other teams have said so. "Perfectly-called run plays", for example. "More play call variety than anyone".

Wrong. The diverse run formations are a product of the play book. Not play calling. His actual game planning and play calling have been mediocre at time's. The diversity comes from being able to make adjustments at the line. I dont know if they are limiting Kaep in this regard, or if he is just not as efficient at finding the correct call at the LOS as Smith.

Just because he has the most diverse playbook in the NFL doesnt mean he is using it right.

Wasn't going to bring it up, but yeah I wonder this myself. How much of this offense is done through adjustments at the line? Many times we see these big runs or even big pass plays are due in part to a "kill, Kill" or "let it roll". I'm just really not sure if this is a big part of the offense or not. Should Kaep. be making more adjustments? Or like you say, is he not given the freedom too?

And these checks, are they from run to another run play or pass to another pass play or if the original play was a pass, he can switch it to a run and vice versa.

I ask b/c for the Rams game, it was beyond obvious the Rams would crowd the LOS and stack 8-9 guys in there (many run blitzing the A-gaps) yet no matter what CK called "kill" or "roll" we STILL just ran and ran right into a brick wall.

Does anyone know?

Both more than likely.

More than likely Roman makes a pair of calls. At the LOS the QB has a choice between those two calls weather two runs, a pass/run, or to passes.

But each of those calls have adjustments based on what the WR's, Olineman, and QB's see. So there is still even alot of variance between the two play calls. Routes based on coverage, blocking schemes based on Dline gap placement etc.

Its been said ROman usually gives them a pass play and a run play to choose from, i wish we had someone out there that could call any play as an audible at any time instead of just killing one or letting it roll with the other. There may be times where different audibles are called, i think against the Rams i heard CK say something like "Black 59 razor" not those words but a play call at the line other than kill kill.

But i have to agree with Ncommand, in this game many times i saw CK saying let it roll or kill when they crowded the line, we ran on almost all of them i can remember through stretches that i remember, im not saying its CK's fault, but it just kept pissing me off when we would still run when there was 8 or sometimes 9 in the box.

These are situations where even though i have been Critical of ALex in the past i feel he does well in, getting to the right run play is something he is great at, passing ehh not so much all the time. In the BEars game i saw CK kill it into a pass play on several of the big gainers, but haven't seen that proficiency since.

I think we honestly have an inconsistency problem at OC/Playcalling, and that we dont have the trust to put the QB out there and let him dictate more than just two playcalls.

Yea i dunno what the issue is. Like i mentioned, i did notice Gore helping kaep get the correct call against the bears. Since then it seems like there has been less versatility to the play calls at the LOS.

Like i said i dont know if they are purposely handicapping Kaep to try to protect him, or if he is simply not making the correct adjustments at the LOS. Probably a little of both.