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49ers/ Giants and Cowboys/Giants. Anybody see why our receivers couldn't get open?

The DBs holding was a topic discussed at length on the radio here in the DFW area.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Does it make you happy to mock other posters? If so, why?

Why? Probably a very insecure person in life :-(
Originally posted by dcsham:
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
Originally posted by dcsham:
You reviewed "game films"?


why is that funny

Because nobody but the teams have "game films" for Christ sake, which are totally different from the TV views that you, I, and anyone else have access to.
actually thats false
I said it all during the Sea game, their DB's were holding all day
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
I reviewed both game films and one thing stood out like a sore thumb. The Giants may have a great passrush, but their DBs hold like glue...as in there shoulda been a lot more holding calls. I noted our WRs and TEs had a heckuva time getting open, but on many, many plays, there was outright holding. Guess what in the Cowboys/Giants game? Same thing. I didn't read about Coach H complaining to the league, but I hope he gives a heads up to the refs the next time we see the Giants....and we will. They have the art of bumping and holding down to a tee. Or they just outright held without a bump. Until I reviewed the Cowboy/NYG game, I hadn't noticed it. But those guys are serious holders. Haven't watched tape of other Giants games, but I think they are pushing the "hold" to the point of cheating. Cowboys WRs had a similar problem for same reason.

In fairness, that isn't why we lost. We lost on bad game planning, bad coaching, both O and D. I don't think Harbaugh, Roman or Fangio gave our guys a chance to win against NY, and that is on them. But the holds were blatant.

We had a similar issur against SEA.

Our WRs are speed guys and not very strong. Guys like Ginn, Manningham, KW and Moss can get punked by bigger corners.

Same thing in Dallas, Austin, Ogletree are pretty small so Witten caught like 18 passes and if not him, then Bryant was getting open, because he is very physical.

The only WR we have with some power is Crabs.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Nov 3, 2012 at 12:47 PM ]
Pad is the new cossell
[ Edited by 49AllTheTime on Nov 3, 2012 at 12:55 PM ]
Originally posted by SFTifoso:
1. Some of us played/coached football, and it's hard to just "turn off" that football mentality. Not every 49er fan is a drunken buffoon, with a football IQ of 2.

2. What someone does with their time is nobodies business. Everybody's situation is different. I could easily point out several things in your life that I would find absolutely boring, and vice versa.

On the main topic: This is why we should run the ball on these guys, or call run-like plays (screens, quick passes, reversers etc.). The first two series of the game showed that we can. Make their DBs irrelevant, and chew the heck out of the clock. Next time we play it will be a completely different story. No more Kap, no more cute plays, and no more stupid game plans. 13-9, and we go to the SB.

I also think if we would put Crabtree or Manningham in motion that would help us the next time we play teams that want to hold and play more physical at the line.
Originally posted by dcsham:
Because nobody but the teams have "game films" for Christ sake, which are totally different from the TV views that you, I, and anyone else have access to.

Wrong. Completely.

I've watched the coaches film of every game this year.
Originally posted by dcsham:
The relavence is that nobody...no NFL rewind subscribers...nobody...in the general public has access to "game film". Maybe parts of it, maybe certain plays, but not every play and every angle that NFL coaches have. I guess he was just trying to make a point which may or may not be relevant.

They show both relevant angles in the coaches film released. You don't need more than what they give you. You can see every player from QB birds eye view or from side view... what more do you need? It's low def, that's the only downside.
[ Edited by Evilgenius on Nov 3, 2012 at 1:40 PM ]
Originally posted by Evilgenius:
They show both relevant angles in the coaches film released. You don't need more than what they give you. You can see every player from QB birds eye view or from side view... what more do you need? It's low def, that's the only downside.

So not only is Pasodoc not wrong, but his critic is wrong? Hmm...funny how that works especially when people are trying to put someone down. Poetic justice?

But to the OP, I believe the receivers need to use picks and other methods to be open more often. They have no doubt been working on this but it seemed to work better against Arizona. The NYG and Seattle play a more aggressive coverage and the receivers need to be able to find a way to get by the DBs quickly. NYGs have good pass rushers as well so that confounds our offense. The running game becomes much more important in these games because you need to slow down the rush.

I truly believe they should wait until the playoffs and then use a spread offense to open holes for the RBs and to allow for three WR sets. Quick routes with the WRs, RB in the flat and VD blocking and then releasing underneath would be so much fun against the Giants. Or it would completely fail and we lose...guess I'll leave it up to Harbaugh and Roman!
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Nov 3, 2012 at 2:02 PM ]
romo threw for 430 yards (and 4 picks)

but his wrs were getting open

that or he was taking chances
Originally posted by Evilgenius:
Originally posted by dcsham:
The relavence is that nobody...no NFL rewind subscribers...nobody...in the general public has access to "game film". Maybe parts of it, maybe certain plays, but not every play and every angle that NFL coaches have. I guess he was just trying to make a point which may or may not be relevant.

They show both relevant angles in the coaches film released. You don't need more than what they give you. You can see every player from QB birds eye view or from side view... what more do you need? It's low def, that's the only downside.

I suggest you read my earlier post.
Ncommand and dtg, both make excellent points. Let's face it, the Giants are getting away with murder on DB/LB/CB holding, and there are ways to counter it. Personally, I think it makes for a less interesting game if the refs allow NYG to hold all the time and basically don't call it. Take it to the extreme, and NO passes get caught. What kind of a game would that be?. Of all the games I have watched this yr, Giants are the worst holders by far, and it makes for great D. But is sucks for the O for opponents, no matter who they may be. I wrote this initially to mention something a lot of folks have noted....SEA also...and agree spliting everybody wide is a good way to counter that. But if I were Coach H I would write the league, make a complaint and make all refs aware that NYG hold, and do so all the time. You don't think Coughlin has taught them that? The point about our WRs not being as physical as Giants receievers, nor as physical as Witten, makes for an interesting question. How do we make our WRs more physical?

I know one way is to practice with the D holding our receivers on every pass play. Another is to make complaints to refs early and often when playing holders such as SEA, NYG, et al. Splitting WRs out is another. But the more I looked at those games the more it became obvious that the holding gives the Giants a monster advantage. Harbaugh is going to have to come up with something, like comebackers, quick hitters( 1 steppers, not 3 or 5 steps)...and there are other things the smart guys know that I don't. But to play another game against NYG with them holding sometimes every receiver is bs. More passes to Frank, Hunter, and here's one you haven't heard in awhile...backfield passes to LaMichael, who will have the ball long before anybody can hold him. Other than that, make #15 play every practice with guys holding him. Same for Mario, #84, and even Vernon, who got a bunch of holds. Practice playing against a holding team, because we are going to see more of it. Heck , anybody that looked at either cowboys/giants or 9ers/NYG saw holding done by experts. Before we play them again, Harbaugh has to come up with something to check that . Wide splits, RB passes, quick hitters....they all work. But no two ways about it, NYG just flat azz stymied our guys. We gotta find an answer to that.
Pasodoc--a way to counter the holding is to pass early and make the holding stand out so that they have to call it. The trouble with this is that it runs contrary to the offensive philosophy Harbaugh has instilled. The other problem is that there are more opportunities for interceptions as the QB has to release the ball with the DB holding the receiver...no separation.

This has been used as a criticism of Smith this year...he doesn't throw the ball unless the receivers are open. Yeah, that's the game they play, but they may have to change that...unless the league tells the refs to call these holds. You can bet if the 9ers DBs begin to hold like this the refs will call them. I see this as part of the built in bias in favor of "elite" offenses or QBs. Not that it is a league policy but it is human nature to assume good players make good plays, while questionable players make bad plays.
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Does it make you happy to mock other posters? If so, why?

Why? Probably a very insecure person in life :-(

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