There are 163 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Official Greg "the mad scientist" Roman Express

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by tohara3:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by dmax:
NC...excellent excellent


Agree. Hopefully Roman can figure out some good plays and make adjustments to get the ball to his play-makers as much as possible. We will see just how many adjustments he makes or if he is just fine running the ball most of the time.

Thanks guys...this is a great thread and interesting take as all of our offense starts with HarRoman's offensive philosophy and game-plan and then bleeds into in-game management and execution. Teams clearly have adapted to our strengths (in the passing game - VD) and WE haven't adjusted IMHO. I'm very curious to see how we adjust to a very good, aggressive, attacking defense that will not only want to take away VD but also pus tons of immediate pressure on Alex from multiple angles/spots along the DL (corner blitzes, S, ILB, OLB, DL, etc.).

GRO calls a good game. the players need to execute

I hope thats sarcasm.......
next eagles HC
John Gruden knows a thing or two about the WCO but this is an interesting take and in line with this thread. I wanted to share with you all:

Monday Night Countdown:
Mike Tirico on the Niner's offense, "What do we see on offense?"
Jon Gruden, "I don't know! A lot of different plays that I've never seen before. Different formations that, I don't think even exist in the NFL. They are even running the shovel-option that Alex Smith ran at Utah in 2004... Colin Kaepernick running the pistol-read option at Nevada, Reno...if worked for Kaepernick so why wouldn't we put it in with the 49ers? They are using all kinds of formations, all kinds of schemes to run the football but it all goes back to Frank Gore as the #1 option; but they have a million ways to run the ball."
Mike Tirico, "So it's not the passing even though the people are there to throw the ball, when you look at their receivers and Vernon Davis but they're very effective running the ball and that's why they are off to this good start..."

Good to see us getting back to Niner football...to our formula. That said, even against a horrible team last night, I wasn't happy with much of the conservative passing calls. We still only passed twice to VD for 34 yards. Only 19 passes overall. This was one of those games where, even with the bone-headed plays, we could have practiced opening up our passing game in the 3rd and 4th Q's. No Jacobs. No Moss on a single post pattern...didn't use him in the RZ/EZ. More focus on Walker. Really vanilla again, IMHO.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 30, 2012 at 12:14 PM ]
So we're 1.5 years into the 3-year installation of the WCO...or in Chucky's mind, the "I don't know!" what it is offense.

Half-way through the year, lets look at the breakdown:
Passing - we've attempted only 218 passes which is about 27 passes a game with the mass majority of those in the first half of games. In reality, with sacks, etc. we're more realistically looking at closer to only 20-23 passes a game with a 69% completion percentage. The most catches any receiver has made is 7 (Crabtree) and VD's highest mark is 5. Its typically spread out pretty evenly among Crabtree, VD, Manningham, Walker, Gore/Hunter & Williams.

Analysis: If the most catches our receivers are going to make is 7, this makes drops a critical stat and puts even more pressure on the very few opportunities these guys are going to see...to make the catches, rack up RAC yards, TD's, big-plays, etc. Last Monday, we saw these receivers make the most of their opportunities which is something they tend to do against secondaries that are very weak (GB, Bills, Cards, etc.). They truly struggle against pressing secondaries such as Seattle/Vikings/Giants. The good news is that we're 60% for the season on 1st down production of 4+ yards but we're seeing defenses the past two week gear up to stop us here big time.

Rushing - we have 239 attempts for a 5.6 yards average. Enough said. Roman is a genius here.

Overall: I do have many concerns about Roman in the passing game, the type of offense we even run...but I don't question his first down production. We have to remember that he is only 1.5 years in but it would be nice to see his receivers esp. VD & Moss targeted more and see more creative ways to get your two best receivers the ball. The speed of Manningham, Ginn, Jenkins, etc. have not been utilized and I'm STILL waiting for us to use Hunter like Sproles is used in New Orleans. James has a chance to be dynamic as well. In short, whatever offense we are, we need to do a much better job of getting your QB and playmaking in a rhythm early and come up with creative plays in the passing game like he does in the run game, IMHO. He is ultra conservative as well.

I give Roman a half-way grade of A for the run game but a C- in the passing game.
Good posts as usual NC! There are so many good things on the table for the offense that it makes me both nervous and super excited to see how they work. With Crabtree having (hopefully) a break out game, it will open up Moss, Manningham, and the rest of the guys. I believe the notion that they finally found out how to use him properly is a two way street--he may have just realized where his bread is buttered and has accepted this role with more intensity.

Having Jacobs, Jenkins and James all on the shelf so far means we have a buffer in case of injury and some new things to throw out as the season ends. I also like the notion that, like Belicheck, they may be tinkering to see just what pieces are most viable for the playoffs.

I don't argue with your grades at all...I might give a higher grade for the passing game, but 6-2 and still kicking the tires is a nice position to be in.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Good posts as usual NC! There are so many good things on the table for the offense that it makes me both nervous and super excited to see how they work. With Crabtree having (hopefully) a break out game, it will open up Moss, Manningham, and the rest of the guys. I believe the notion that they finally found out how to use him properly is a two way street--he may have just realized where his bread is buttered and has accepted this role with more intensity.

Having Jacobs, Jenkins and James all on the shelf so far means we have a buffer in case of injury and some new things to throw out as the season ends. I also like the notion that, like Belicheck, they may be tinkering to see just what pieces are most viable for the playoffs.

I don't argue with your grades at all...I might give a higher grade for the passing game, but 6-2 and still kicking the tires is a nice position to be in.

Thanks dtg_9er!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giOfuGJ0rq0&feature=player_embedded

I hope Roman takes notes...this is epic. To how they physically timed each WR on these Go-Routes to the positioning of the DB, to the Alternate guy (TE) to the 3rd option (RB) and how it starts with the deep read and work backwards. Again, Roman runs the Anti-WCO to me and this is more evidence.

When you have deep-speed weapons such as Moss, VD & Manningham (even Ginn/Jenkins), you can run this play all day long...more proof that we don't even use VD like we should (Brent Jones) and we certainly don't use Gore/Hunter enough in the flats for the checks downs. This ONE play highlights 3 options for Smith and that is not something I see with our designed plays.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 1, 2012 at 6:59 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Thanks dtg_9er!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giOfuGJ0rq0&feature=player_embedded

I hope Roman takes notes...this is epic. To how they physically timed each WR on these Go-Routes to the positioning of the DB, to the Alternate guy (TE) to the 3rd option (RB) and how it starts with the deep read and work backwards. Again, Roman runs the Anti-WCO to me and this is more evidence.

When you have deep-speed weapons such as Moss, VD & Manningham (even Ginn/Jenkins), you can run this play all day long...more proof that we don't even use VD like we should (Brent Jones) and we certainly don't use Gore/Hunter enough in the flats for the checks downs. This ONE play highlights 3 options for Smith and that is not something I see with our designed plays.

Great video that really refutes so many anti-Smith claims! I love the fact that Walsh says--"If the DB is behind or next to the WR you go somewhere else." and that decision is made quickly so you can hit open routes. In other words, when the anti bunch claims there are open receivers just because the DB is ten yards deeper, Walsh would say don't throw the go route.

If Walsh was coaching this team he would have a blast with this receiver group. He didn't need them to be super to be Super Bowl winners. And I agree that Roman is the antithesis of BW...but perhaps those are things to come as they mature in the system.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Thanks dtg_9er!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giOfuGJ0rq0&feature=player_embedded

I hope Roman takes notes...this is epic. To how they physically timed each WR on these Go-Routes to the positioning of the DB, to the Alternate guy (TE) to the 3rd option (RB) and how it starts with the deep read and work backwards. Again, Roman runs the Anti-WCO to me and this is more evidence.

When you have deep-speed weapons such as Moss, VD & Manningham (even Ginn/Jenkins), you can run this play all day long...more proof that we don't even use VD like we should (Brent Jones) and we certainly don't use Gore/Hunter enough in the flats for the checks downs. This ONE play highlights 3 options for Smith and that is not something I see with our designed plays.

Great video that really refutes so many anti-Smith claims! I love the fact that Walsh says--"If the DB is behind or next to the WR you go somewhere else." and that decision is made quickly so you can hit open routes. In other words, when the anti bunch claims there are open receivers just because the DB is ten yards deeper, Walsh would say don't throw the go route.

If Walsh was coaching this team he would have a blast with this receiver group. He didn't need them to be super to be Super Bowl winners. And I agree that Roman is the antithesis of BW...but perhaps those are things to come as they mature in the system.

You bet, there is a 7-series of these videos and it starts with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-MfNd-SjZo&feature=relmfu

The more I watch these videos the more and more I see how Anti-WCO we really are. In fact, I genuinely struggle to find one similarity. That said, like you noted, Roman appeared to have the right idea by "watching the Bill Walsh tapes" from day 1 but that also shows you that he wasn't really running a WCO to begin with. Chucky, a WCO-guru himself, had no idea what this offense was but it was obvious the focus was on the running game and passing game was secondary.

If this is a true WCO, it takes at least 3 years to implement it and that is if you have all the right personnel growing together d/t the precise timing and chemistry needed between QB/Receiver. We are 1.5 years in...
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 1, 2012 at 7:17 AM ]
My impression of G-Ro is that his passing game offense is attached to the running game, which I think he knows more about with creativity, than the passing game. But I could be very wrong in this regard because G-Ro may be the careful, deliberate type, so he's taking small, sure steps in the passing offense for the purpose of letting his guys learn, operate, and improved with lesser mistakes.

I don't think we can judge G-Ro's passing attack fully halfway through the season and compare it to Walsh's full implementation of his WCO passing offense.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Nov 1, 2012 at 7:20 AM ]
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
My impression of G-Ro is that his passing game offense is attached to the running game, which I think he knows more about with creativity, than the passing game. But I could be very wrong in this regard because G-Ro may be the careful, deliberate type, so he's taking small, sure steps in the passing offense for the purpose of letting his guys learn, operate, and improved with lesser mistakes.

I don't think we can judge G-Ro's passing attack fully halfway through the season and compare it to Walsh's full implementation of his WCO passing offense.

Agreed...although, 1.5 years we should see WCO basic principals in the passing game and right now, I don't see those.
You may never see a HC more involved in the development/coaching of a QB again like we saw with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana. Aside from "pumping him up" do we ever see Jim Harbaugh coaching up Alex Smith on the sidelines, drawing up plays, talking about what he sees, where they can attack, etc.? There needs to be constant two-way communication and right now, it appears more one-sided. A play comes down from Roman to Rathman to Alex.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 1, 2012 at 11:23 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
WCO basic principals: Notes
Part 1 - "To me football is an art form...it's a science but it's an art form. The pass offense was high percentage, timed passing. The same system of football being refined continually. That's the essence of coaching - isolating skills that are needed in the game of football and finding the best drills to teach those skills. " ~ BW

You may never see a HC more involved in the development/coaching of a QB again like we saw with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana. Aside from "pumping him up" do we ever see Jim Harbaugh coaching up Alex Smith on the sidelines, drawing up plays, talking about what he sees, where they can attack, etc.? There needs to be constant two-way communication and right now, it appears more one-sided. A play comes down from Roman to Rathman to Alex.

Yeah, not sure how much focus Jim can put on his QB in-game. Jim just has a lot on his plate.. or chooses to put a lot on his plate.. during each game.

At least, that's the way it seems to me. I think Alex gets the adequate input that he needs though... just more throughout the week than during a game. Alex is a vet, so I don't think he needs that much attention during a game from his HC.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Yeah, not sure how much focus Jim can put on his QB in-game. Jim just has a lot on his plate.. or chooses to put a lot on his plate.. during each game.

At least, that's the way it seems to me. I think Alex gets the adequate input that he needs though... just more throughout the week than during a game. Alex is a vet, so I don't think he needs that much attention during a game from his HC.

You may be right but with other QB's they are usually on the bench reviewing snap-shot pictures and communicating back to the OC. Maybe that is happening and I've missed it or it isn't needed b/c Roman has a bird's eye view from the box, etc.

I certainly don't see the WCO teaching mechanics in Alex from his footwork to arch of the throw, timing, etc. Instead, he goes to L.A. for that?
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 1, 2012 at 7:44 AM ]
mac--you are correct about Harbaugh concentrating elsewhere, but Chryst has handles the in game attention, giving Smith and CK photos of each play in each drive and going over the mistakes/good plays. I do notice Harbuagh asking Smith what he saw on various plays when he comes off the field...particularly when a pass goes awry.
Originally posted by NCommand:
You may be right but with other QB's they are usually on the bench reviewing snap-shot pictures and communicating back to the OC. Maybe that is happening and I've missed it or it isn't needed b/c Roman has a bird's eye view from the box, etc.

I certainly don't see the WCO teaching mechanics in Alex from his footwork to arch of the throw, timing, etc. Instead, he goes to L.A. for that?

Can't think of any specific examples.. but I have at times definitely seen Alex going over plays/pics with the OC/QB coach (and even Ck7 close and paying attention) on the sideline. Never seen them sitting on a bench doing it though, like I have other teams.
...