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Official Greg "the mad scientist" Roman Express

I pretty much knew we wouldn't see the Bill Walsh version of the offense. I'm actually waiting to see what was run at Stanford and what you still see to this day. I like Delanie Walker but he probably isn't sure handed enough for them to run those 2 and 3 TE sets. I just would like to see more done to get the ball into the hands of our playmakers.
Originally posted by sfout:
That CUTE bulls**t pissed me off so bad. Just run down hill, don't put your team at risk of a TFL or a fumble(see the rain slicked fumble on that toss sweep last year).

Seriously our coaches biggest coaching flaw that I will never get used to is Roman's inability to go basic when its the right call to do so, its like he has to do something unique and he continually picks horrific situations to do it. Even that Toss Sweep to Gore earlier in the game pissed me off and that one worked.

Agreed, throughout this thread, that toss sweep left WITH Gore rarely works and almost always ends in loss yardage esp. on 1st downs. But my God, you do NOT do that on 4th down and esp, when you are trying to get yardage and ball alignment for a game-winning FG. Horrific call. It lost us three yards and that was the difference in Akers kick. That's all Roman. I truly wonder if Alex was in there, he would have checked it off (kill it) or if that play allowed for that option.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by sfout:
That CUTE bulls**t pissed me off so bad. Just run down hill, don't put your team at risk of a TFL or a fumble(see the rain slicked fumble on that toss sweep last year).

Seriously our coaches biggest coaching flaw that I will never get used to is Roman's inability to go basic when its the right call to do so, its like he has to do something unique and he continually picks horrific situations to do it. Even that Toss Sweep to Gore earlier in the game pissed me off and that one worked.

Agreed, throughout this thread, that toss sweep left WITH Gore rarely works and almost always ends in loss yardage esp. on 1st downs. But my God, you do NOT do that on 4th down and esp, when you are trying to get yardage and ball alignment for a game-winning FG. Horrific call. It lost us three yards and that was the difference in Akers kick. That's all Roman. I truly wonder if Alex was in there, he would have checked it off (kill it) or if that play allowed for that option.

This was an example why many of us have been concerned about play calling all year long. NC has been on target with this as have others. It's not so bad to run into a stacked line when you are playing field position because the worst thing that usually happens is turning Lee loose to pin the opposition back, or in this case making the game winning field goal.

If they had wanted to be cute I would have preferred sending CK on an option...throw the ball away if no one is wide open.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by sfout:
That CUTE bulls**t pissed me off so bad. Just run down hill, don't put your team at risk of a TFL or a fumble(see the rain slicked fumble on that toss sweep last year).

Seriously our coaches biggest coaching flaw that I will never get used to is Roman's inability to go basic when its the right call to do so, its like he has to do something unique and he continually picks horrific situations to do it. Even that Toss Sweep to Gore earlier in the game pissed me off and that one worked.

Agreed, throughout this thread, that toss sweep left WITH Gore rarely works and almost always ends in loss yardage esp. on 1st downs. But my God, you do NOT do that on 4th down and esp, when you are trying to get yardage and ball alignment for a game-winning FG. Horrific call. It lost us three yards and that was the difference in Akers kick. That's all Roman. I truly wonder if Alex was in there, he would have checked it off (kill it) or if that play allowed for that option.

When I seen Romans name in the headlines of this thread I immediately thought of everything you just wrote in your post. Almost word for word.
  • sfout
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed, throughout this thread, that toss sweep left WITH Gore rarely works and almost always ends in loss yardage esp. on 1st downs. But my God, you do NOT do that on 4th down and esp, when you are trying to get yardage and ball alignment for a game-winning FG. Horrific call. It lost us three yards and that was the difference in Akers kick. That's all Roman. I truly wonder if Alex was in there, he would have checked it off (kill it) or if that play allowed for that option.

I'd like to think Alex would've done that but seriously, the next call after that was a run of the gut and it got us back those 3-4 yards, had we just done that for both plays it would've theoretically netted us a +6 yards gained(1st play lost 3, second play gained 3 so the 2nd play had been the result of both runs) maybe more, maybe less but again theoretically a 41 yard attempt becomes a 36 yard attempt.
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed, throughout this thread, that toss sweep left WITH Gore rarely works and almost always ends in loss yardage esp. on 1st downs. But my God, you do NOT do that on 4th down and esp, when you are trying to get yardage and ball alignment for a game-winning FG. Horrific call. It lost us three yards and that was the difference in Akers kick. That's all Roman. I truly wonder if Alex was in there, he would have checked it off (kill it) or if that play allowed for that option.

I'd like to think Alex would've done that but seriously, the next call after that was a run of the gut and it got us back those 3-4 yards, had we just done that for both plays it would've theoretically netted us a +6 yards gained(1st play lost 3, second play gained 3 so the 2nd play had been the result of both runs) maybe more, maybe less but again theoretically a 41 yard attempt becomes a 36 yard attempt.

Bingo!
Originally posted by 49erswillbeback:
When I seen Romans name in the headlines of this thread I immediately thought of everything you just wrote in your post. Almost word for word.

I don't know what I'm more impressed by... 1) that you READ everything I have been writing about or 2) you remembered everything I wrote about.

Either way, I'm impressed and appreciate your time!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by sfout:
That CUTE bulls**t pissed me off so bad. Just run down hill, don't put your team at risk of a TFL or a fumble(see the rain slicked fumble on that toss sweep last year).

Seriously our coaches biggest coaching flaw that I will never get used to is Roman's inability to go basic when its the right call to do so, its like he has to do something unique and he continually picks horrific situations to do it. Even that Toss Sweep to Gore earlier in the game pissed me off and that one worked.

Agreed, throughout this thread, that toss sweep left WITH Gore rarely works and almost always ends in loss yardage esp. on 1st downs. But my God, you do NOT do that on 4th down and esp, when you are trying to get yardage and ball alignment for a game-winning FG. Horrific call. It lost us three yards and that was the difference in Akers kick. That's all Roman. I truly wonder if Alex was in there, he would have checked it off (kill it) or if that play allowed for that option.

I think we outthought ourselves. I'm sure we were thinking that they were thinking to load the middle to not allow us to get closer. We were probably hoping to gash them for a 10 yarder on that toss hoping they would crash down.
Originally posted by Joecool:
I think we outthought ourselves. I'm sure we were thinking that they were thinking to load the middle to not allow us to get closer. We were probably hoping to gash them for a 10 yarder on that toss hoping they would crash down.

We are doing too much and too little at the same time. This isn't the first time it seems like we overthought a decision. Greg Roman make simple decisions complicated and doesn't do enough to get the ball into the hands of the playmakers on this team. Its a recipe that will usually lead to us beating to mediocre to bad teams (with some unnecessary struggling every now and again) and losing to the good ones.
Put it this way...the Rams had ONE small receiver with a shattered collar bone who hadn't played in 3 weeks and the Rams OC got him the ball every other play (it seemed) and moved him around all over the field to create mismatches and when they found one (Rogers) they continued to exploit it. They even ran a 3 TE set overloaded on one side of the line.

Now, for the 4th week in a row with guys such as Crabtree, Moss, Hunter, Manningham in the passing game our OC, even after a bye-week, can't find a single way to get VD the ball? Seriously?

Why is Roman getting a free pass? That's all I ask!
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 12, 2012 at 4:23 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Put it this way...the Rams had ONE small receiver with a shattered collar bone who hadn't played in 3 weeks and the Rams OC got him the ball every other play (it seemed) and moved him around all over the field to create mismatches and when they found one (Rogers) they continued to exploit it. They even ran a 3 TE set overloaded on one side of the line.

Now, for the 4th week in a row with guys such as Crabtree, Moss, Hunter, Manningham in the passing game our OC, even after a bye-week, can't find a single way to get VD the ball? Seriously?

Why is Roman getting a free pass? That's all I ask!

I agree

How can you not design plays to get your best offensive weapon the ball.
Vernon has been open...we have seen the game film...just because he might not have been open enough for Alex doesn't matter. And if the coaching staff want to say that teams are taking DRASTIC measures to take him away....well its not working every play because he has gotten open.

edit- don't get me wrong.. Roman gets the blame for some of our calls and how he's using our players... he needs to use Hunter more often for certain plays.

It seemed like after Alex got hurt, they also chose to not use Hunter for the rest of the game... he seemed to get like one carry. On some of those plays we do with Kaep and Gore, we need Hunter back there instead...especially if we are going to call toss plays as well.
[ Edited by Afrikan on Nov 12, 2012 at 4:46 PM ]
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Vernon has been open...we have seen the game film...just because he might not have been open enough for Alex doesn't matter. And if the coaching staff want to say that teams are taking DRASTIC measures to take him away....well its not working every play because he has gotten open.

edit- don't get me wrong.. Roman gets the blame for some of our calls and how he's using our players... he needs to use Hunter more often for certain plays.

It seemed like after Alex got hurt, they also chose to not use Hunter for the rest of the game... he seemed to get like one carry. On some of those plays we do with Kaep and Gore, we need Hunter back there instead...especially if we are going to call toss plays as well.

Agree with most of this...if teams are taking drastic measures to cover him underneath and over-the-top, then you counter and throw them for a loop. Like line him up as part of a 3 TE jumbo package that you THROW out of like the Rams did to us, or line him up as a WR or even in the back field, on a fly sweep, a reverse, etc. You could say the same thing about Moss and Hunter (monster screen weapon, wheel route, off tackle, between tackles, etc.) like you alluded too. And b/c VD is being covered, I'm seeing less and less calls where VD "is" primary target. In fact, VD was targeted one time in the 1st quarter of the Rams game, he was covered and Alex got sacked instantly. You have a guy like Manningham who you can use deep but we rarely do...aside from that one against the Giants, when was the last Roman called his name deep as the primary read? How are Alex and these receivers supposed to get their deep ball patterns down. Hell, Wilson can only throw one pass and it's deep but at least they call it many many times throughout the game and now he's becoming more efficient at it as are the receivers...those same receivers who dropped everything against us. As to the Alex criticism, you better be prepared to blame Kaep too then. The smart thing to do, and right thing to do, is if VD is doubled, it's to look him off and to the other WR's such as Crabtree (no coincidence here) who should be single covered. Period. Crabtree/Alex are on the same page now building trust/chemistry/timing thanks to Moss and VD pulling doubles. But this is about Roman...and IMHO, Roman needs to find ways to get VD open. Period. That's what great OC's do. And given he hasn't speaks volumes to my expectations for this offense no matter who's at the helm. The issues are still going to be there...
Before i throw mark roman (smh) totally under the bus im going to give him 3 years. But here are a couple things ive thought about when it comes to our OC.

1....he's only 1.5 years into his NFL OC experience and only 1 full off season to sharpen his trade with the tools available.
2....he kinda reminds me of mm, only with the running game (which aint all bad) but you cant play to your tendencies all the time. he sometimes calls goofy/cute plays that seam out of touch with the flow of the game and that hasnt improved much as the season has progressed.
3....he has shown an inability to create or exploit mismatches in the passing game personnel wise. Yeh yeh yeh AS is pulling the trigger but for all the exquisitely designed run plays that create an advantage our passing game is equally bleh when creating mismatches by motioning or personnel.
4....i haven't seen his stamp on the O. i know it's probably an unfair criticism but his only claim to fame at this point is the running game. Im not sure how much input he has in play design or tweaking of plays considering the rathman, harbaugh, seifert connections with the WCO....(like i said i know it's unfair, not many play books are original anymore).
Originally posted by Allx9er:
Before i throw mark roman (smh) totally under the bus im going to give him 3 years. But here are a couple things ive thought about when it comes to our OC.

1....he's only 1.5 years into his NFL OC experience and only 1 full off season to sharpen his trade with the tools available.
2....he kinda reminds me of mm, only with the running game (which aint all bad) but you cant play to your tendencies all the time. he sometimes calls goofy/cute plays that seam out of touch with the flow of the game and that hasnt improved much as the season has progressed.
3....he has shown an inability to create or exploit mismatches in the passing game personnel wise. Yeh yeh yeh AS is pulling the trigger but for all the exquisitely designed run plays that create an advantage our passing game is equally bleh when creating mismatches by motioning or personnel.
4....i haven't seen his stamp on the O. i know it's probably an unfair criticism but his only claim to fame at this point is the running game. Im not sure how much input he has in play design or tweaking of plays considering the rathman, harbaugh, seifert connections with the WCO....(like i said i know it's unfair, not many play books are original anymore).

Very nice post. I esp. agree with the first point about only 1.5 years in. I try to remind everyone of that point b/c it's not just the QB, but the RB's, OL, TE's, WR's and esp. the coaches. Some things they did in college will work in the NFL but it will only be short-lived. The NFL is all about game planning and adjusting on the fly. He's a genius at creating mismatches in the running game and playing to the strengths of the OL and RB's for the most part as well as Alex who makes the pre snap reads/decisions. Genius. And that was their bread and butter at Stanford as well documented (in this thread as well). In fact, the Rams were using our own "wham blocks" against us last game AND the 3 TE sets aligned on one side of the line (but they passed out of that formation rather than run like we do). They did a stellar job of reviewing film of Rogers getting torched by Cruz again in the slot and isolated/exploited him all game. The Rams only have two weapons, Jackson and Amendola and both had over 100 yards b/c of their OC's scheme ad individual efforts. Period. This is where Roman fails right now...we have x10 the weapons they do.

And I really like your last point about his offense. In the passing game, he seems to be stellar on 1st down calls; calls where the defense has no idea what is coming. But if we don't get 4+ yards on 1st down, and the defense can at least predict if it is a run or pass, we're especially weak. Our passing game seems to be all-or-nothing at time.

And like we talked about, we aren't really seeing him create or find ways to get the ball in his best receivers hands which is the staple of the WCO. Teams would always try to take Jerry Rice away but he'd work harder to win those individual battles off the LOS and the OC's would create new ways to get him the ball (e.g. line him up in the back field).

To your point, we do need to be patient. He continues to install package after package. When he is called out (RZ last year) he admitted it was not as much a focus as it was to that point, gaining and sustaining drives between the 20's. Eventually, we may see the deep packages installed. Hopefully some more traditional WCO plays such as the slant, post pattern, go-routes, etc.

But for now, his focus should be on building off his running game, first down production and game planning to get his talented receiver the ball (VD, Moss, Manningham, Hunter, Crabtree, etc.).