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49er/Minn Coaches Film Pass Offense Analysis

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Thanks to Whomeam for posting the video.

This is my first analysis here. I know other guys do it, but I just had to do one since they released the coaches film.

First half. We spread them out. We were actually very effective. Moss had some key mistakes. Our receivers were not open the majority of the time. There were two questionable check downs, but the coverage was there to warrant them.

The over throw to Moss is on Smith.

Just to get it out of the way:
Ponder's TD Run.The best view is at 24:11. Ponder drops back. Sets his feet, pump fakes. It takes a full second for the pocket to start collapsing from the edges. Soap gets pushed out of the middle to his left, leaving a wide open lane up the middle. Great read, but he had enough time to make it. Good play.

First Offensive Drive
1. Pass to Delanie was a designed screen. Both WRs were blocking before the ball was thrown.
2. Real good pass to Davis who had a guy on his outside shoulder. Smith put it right on his inside shoulder where only he could catch it for a first down.
3. The first drop by Moss should have been caught.
4. On Alex's sack when he rolled out and braced himself for the sack, he had immediate pressure, avoided the first sack, no receiver was open. The sack was inconsequential, it was 3rd down and we punted anyway. Had he thrown it away we would have gained 2 yards. As he was rolling, he crept back up to the LOS.

Second Drive

1. Alex makes a good hot route read. Has immediate pressure right up the middle, throws it quick to Moss on an inside seam, Moss doesn't really attempt to catch it. Looks like the ball got there before Moss was ready for it. Alex looked immediately. Looks like a miscue on Moss.
2. Alex's slip. Moss was the read and the only guy open. Problem is, Moss doesn't look back until it's too late. He gets into the zone, and as he's turning around, a LB steps into the bottom of the zone. Pressure comes from the left side, Alex rolls and slips.
3. Boone still makes me laugh, although Gore might have gotten a lot more on the play. On second look, there was a Viking right there with the right angle, but Boone's shove seems to have thrown Gore into a different angle and velocity. He actually helped on the play.
4. at 16:42 in the video on the check down when Davis looks open, Smith is reads left, middle, check down. DB has WR covered, LB has Davis covered. As Smith goes to his check down, the linebacker pulls off, making it look like Davis is open. No other WR is open until Smith reads his check down.
5. Good throw to Moss on an out before he make his cut.
6. 18:00 Overthrow to Moss. I'm on the fence. Moss makes a great double move. Beats his defender flat out. Did he take the wrong angle? Smith has enough time gets hit just after the throw. It looks like it was just over thrown. But Moss has been making mistakes all day up to this point. Final verdict: Overthrown.

Third Drive

1. Smith's next rollout. He has Davis on a drag who is the only man open, but gets pressure when Jared Allen beats Staley. Smith avoids the sack. Davis ends up with two defenders just behind him, Alex tucks it and gains those yards anyway. Manningham is directly behind on of the defenders, and the throw would have been possible, but there's also a DB right behind him. Alex would have had to float it over a defender and risk the DB being able to make a play.
2. Checkdown to Crabs 28:27. It looks like Manningham makes a good move and gets open, but the DB on Walker slides off into the zone in front of Manningham, and the safety is just over the top. Alex could have made a bullet pass, but the DB could have made a lay on it.
3. 29:24 Quasi-Sack/Throwaway. Jared Allen just makes a damn good play after beating Staley again. Allen beats Staley to the outside, leaving a huge hole up the middle. Right side of the line is holding up fine. Alex starts running up the middle just like Ponder did, Allen manages to just barely grab him. Would have been a huge gain had Staley been able to hold half a second longer.
4. 29:50 Allen beats Staley again BAD. Staley gets beat so bad, he falls down. No receivers are open. Quick pass to Davis for a short gain.
5. Field goal blocked. They pushed EVERYONE back 5 yards.

Second half tomorrow.

Great stuff!!!!!!!

Naturally the Alex-haters would never watch the game again, (if they even watch at all) objectively like this so I really appreciate all the analysis people are doing now! It makes for some great debates and highlights the REAL concerns...like Staley...someone I've been highlighting for quite a while now. Not b/c I have a personal agenda against him...just that in reviewing the "tape" he stands out to me as a big issue. Alex actually saved him from another sack like you pointed out and maybe more. It also highlights how Alex straightened out his mechanics AND is still just a bit off with some of the newer WR additions (which is to be expected). It will get better, no doubt. Eventually, hopefully, like Crabtree so far this year, Moss and Manningham will be on the same page with Alex like VD is w/o question.

are you for real? Watch the first offensive play of the game. Play action roll out and smith passes to a covered crabs for minimul gain and misses a wide open moss in tbe middle of the field for 10-15 yards. It got worse from there. He missed a s**t load of mid range plays and went with the short s**t, even when we were down.

There were many time where he was rushed. But when he had shots, he didnt take them.
He threw short.

He did some nice things as well like getting the ball out fast, so even if there was a rush, it didnt matter.

Are you for real? A designed roll out flood to the right and you want him to throw to the one guy on the field he would have to throw across his body 20 yards to reach?

Keep reaching.
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Q: On the other side of the ball, do the 49ers lack a downfield presence?

COSELL: That's a very interesting question. I watched the tape and there were not many downfield route combinations called. That really surprised me.

Looool at people trying to twist this around. The gameplan was garbage. We didn't run ANY deep routes. Our coaching staff nneeds to step it up

The lack of deep routes is really starting to hurt the team. It also seems that the routes are all the same depth on many occasions, makes it very easy to defend. Like I said before, teams are going to stack the box and defend the short stuff. If Roman/Harbaugh don't adjust the game plan to include more vertical routes with different depths then we are screwed!
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
I have to say i think your analysis on Moss is completely off for this game. He was wide open all game and only had 1 I would consider a drop. So out of the 7 targets, he only dropped 1, and caught 3, with the rest being poorly thrown balls..

Three throws to him were either overthrown or behind him. Overthrown at 5:31 left to go in the 1st quarter, where Moss is coming across the field right on 2nd and 6. Thrown behind him at 2:21 left in the 1st quarter, where Moss is lined up on the left side and runs a 10 yard slant to the inside. Overthrown at 13:15 left in the 2nd quarter, where Moss is at the goal line. I actually think Moss had a good day, but the balls just weren't thrown well enough to him.

Did you watch the coaches film? I did, and I agree with the op.

I watched the coaches film and the real game film. I really do not think that the coaches film provides enough depth perception or angle of the three plays I am talking about to the point where someone can blame Moss on those passes. The real game film gives better angles of those passes, and I stand by my earlier statement.

I agree with you on the overthrow at the pylon. But if you watch his route on his 10 yard "slant" on 2nd and 6, he's not running a slant. Nor does he look for the ball. And it is not thrown behind him, Moss hits the ball with his outstretched hand. Had the ball been thrown behind him, it would have hit a defender. Had the ball been thrown any further ahead of him, a defender would have picked it. There was a very small window for Alex to throw into. It could have been a little lower, but it definitely doesn't look behind him. I can't find a link to the actual game footage. If you have one, I'll look there also.

It's in the Niner Talk section called "Vikings Game in 720p" or something along those lines.
If you guys are speaking of the crossing route that glanced off of Moss' hands? Then my POV is that Moss turned a rounded drag route into a sharp 90 degree angle..

IF he would have continued his rounded route to be standing more on the 45 yard line (where the OTHER tipped Viking horn was on the mid-field logo)? Perfect pass, easy catch... He also had time to adjust to the pass mid-flight... instead he chose to leave his feet and stretch out for the pass.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Are you for real? A designed roll out flood to the right and you want him to throw to the one guy on the field he would have to throw across his body 20 yards to reach?

Keep reaching.

He can do it in Madden!
Originally posted by oldman9er:
If you guys are speaking of the crossing route that glanced off of Moss' hands? Then my POV is that Moss turned a rounded drag route into a sharp 90 degree angle..

IF he would have continued his rounded route to be standing more on the 45 yard line (where the OTHER tipped Viking horn was on the mid-field logo)? Perfect pass, easy catch... He also had time to adjust to the pass mid-flight... instead he chose to leave his feet and stretch out for the pass.

No, it's the hot read during the first quarter. We were 2nd and 6, Alex makes an adjustment, immediately looks for Moss at the snap. The route was one of three: A badly run slant, a slant curl, or an inside seam. On the TV, the ball looks like it was thrown behind Moss, but watching the coaches film, the ball looks like it was in front of him thrown in a tight spot, could have been a little lower, but Moss doesn't look ready for it, throws his left hand up and knocks it down.

Fixed
[ Edited by mkmasn on Sep 27, 2012 at 4:29 PM ]
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
I have to say i think your analysis on Moss is completely off for this game. He was wide open all game and only had 1 I would consider a drop. So out of the 7 targets, he only dropped 1, and caught 3, with the rest being poorly thrown balls..

Three throws to him were either overthrown or behind him. Overthrown at 5:31 left to go in the 1st quarter, where Moss is coming across the field right on 2nd and 6. Thrown behind him at 2:21 left in the 1st quarter, where Moss is lined up on the left side and runs a 10 yard slant to the inside. Overthrown at 13:15 left in the 2nd quarter, where Moss is at the goal line. I actually think Moss had a good day, but the balls just weren't thrown well enough to him.

Did you watch the coaches film? I did, and I agree with the op.

I watched the coaches film and the real game film. I really do not think that the coaches film provides enough depth perception or angle of the three plays I am talking about to the point where someone can blame Moss on those passes. The real game film gives better angles of those passes, and I stand by my earlier statement.

I agree with you on the overthrow at the pylon. But if you watch his route on his 10 yard "slant" on 2nd and 6, he's not running a slant. Nor does he look for the ball. And it is not thrown behind him, Moss hits the ball with his outstretched hand. Had the ball been thrown behind him, it would have hit a defender. Had the ball been thrown any further ahead of him, a defender would have picked it. There was a very small window for Alex to throw into. It could have been a little lower, but it definitely doesn't look behind him. I can't find a link to the actual game footage. If you have one, I'll look there also.

It's in the Niner Talk section called "Vikings Game in 720p" or something along those lines.

Ok, watched it on the 720p link. Same thing. Moss puts his left hand out in front of him and hits it. Moss was not ready for the ball. It's at 23:32 in the video. Moss doesn't even has his head turned until the ball is out of Smith's hand. Smith read immediate pressure and got his just after the throw. Sorry, That's on Moss. That was double coverage. One Vike on Moss' back shoulder the whole way because of the inside move, one Vike in the Zone Moss got into when the ball hit him. That was a pretty good throw.
[ Edited by mkmasn on Sep 27, 2012 at 4:21 PM ]
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
If you guys are speaking of the crossing route that glanced off of Moss' hands? Then my POV is that Moss turned a rounded drag route into a sharp 90 degree angle..

IF he would have continued his rounded route to be standing more on the 45 yard line (where the OTHER tipped Viking horn was on the mid-field logo)? Perfect pass, easy catch... He also had time to adjust to the pass mid-flight... instead he chose to leave his feet and stretch out for the pass.

No, it's the hot read during the second quarter. We were 2nd and 6, Alex makes an adjustment, immediately looks for Moss at the snap. The route was one of three: A badly run slant, a slant curl, or an inside seam. On the TV, the ball looks like it was thrown behind Moss, but watching the coaches film, the ball looks like it was in front of him thrown in a tight spot, could have been a little lower, but Moss doesn't look ready for it, throws his left hand up and knocks it down.

Well now I am really confused to what play you are speaking of, lolz... I see no play in the 2nd that describes the play you are talking about.

( not pushing for you to pin it down better... only if you are so inclined )
It seems that objective posters say that Moss was not sharp and Smith missed a few. The anti-crew (predictably) either say Moss was right, though they don't really know what right is, or they quote Cosell to knock Smith.

Now knowing that it took VD a half a year to get comfortable in the offense, even though he and Alex had always been in sync, why wouldn't most people assume Moss is having some difficulty adjusting to the offense? Because it doesn't fit their POV? And a couple of people have already asked by most of the really solid game analysis is done by people who appreciate Smith.

Why would one assume Moss is at fault? He has been used in a very limited way so far this year and has not been as productive as Crabtree or even Manningham. He has been out of football for a year and is rusty. On the other hand, Smith has a very decent QBR, has looked really good the first two games and then had a low average game against Minn. Cosell began to back track a little after the first two games but now, after a loss, he feels it's fine to go back on the attack. Yuck!
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
If you guys are speaking of the crossing route that glanced off of Moss' hands? Then my POV is that Moss turned a rounded drag route into a sharp 90 degree angle..

IF he would have continued his rounded route to be standing more on the 45 yard line (where the OTHER tipped Viking horn was on the mid-field logo)? Perfect pass, easy catch... He also had time to adjust to the pass mid-flight... instead he chose to leave his feet and stretch out for the pass.

No, it's the hot read during the second quarter. We were 2nd and 6, Alex makes an adjustment, immediately looks for Moss at the snap. The route was one of three: A badly run slant, a slant curl, or an inside seam. On the TV, the ball looks like it was thrown behind Moss, but watching the coaches film, the ball looks like it was in front of him thrown in a tight spot, could have been a little lower, but Moss doesn't look ready for it, throws his left hand up and knocks it down.

Well now I am really confused to what play you are speaking of, lolz... I see no play in the 2nd that describes the play you are talking about.

( not pushing for you to pin it down better... only if you are so inclined )

Sorry... in the first quarter.

On the 720p link at 23:32 or 2:22 game time.

On your notes:
"2nd and 4 at SF 41 A.Smith pass incomplete short left to R.Moss [J.Brinkley].
ILB blitz came in free... Frank Gore badly missed on the blitz pickup... clearly Alex's accuracy was affected by that LB and the ball sailed beyond Moss and the DBs in the area."
I have a meeting to go to now, but when I get home I should be able to watch the second half. Should be up about midnight or so.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
If you guys are speaking of the crossing route that glanced off of Moss' hands? Then my POV is that Moss turned a rounded drag route into a sharp 90 degree angle..

IF he would have continued his rounded route to be standing more on the 45 yard line (where the OTHER tipped Viking horn was on the mid-field logo)? Perfect pass, easy catch... He also had time to adjust to the pass mid-flight... instead he chose to leave his feet and stretch out for the pass.

No, it's the hot read during the second quarter. We were 2nd and 6, Alex makes an adjustment, immediately looks for Moss at the snap. The route was one of three: A badly run slant, a slant curl, or an inside seam. On the TV, the ball looks like it was thrown behind Moss, but watching the coaches film, the ball looks like it was in front of him thrown in a tight spot, could have been a little lower, but Moss doesn't look ready for it, throws his left hand up and knocks it down.

Well now I am really confused to what play you are speaking of, lolz... I see no play in the 2nd that describes the play you are talking about.

( not pushing for you to pin it down better... only if you are so inclined )

Sorry... in the first quarter.

On the 720p link at 23:32 or 2:22 game time.

On your notes:
"2nd and 4 at SF 41 A.Smith pass incomplete short left to R.Moss [J.Brinkley].
ILB blitz came in free... Frank Gore badly missed on the blitz pickup... clearly Alex's accuracy was affected by that LB and the ball sailed beyond Moss and the DBs in the area."

Alex needs to make that throw
after further review, time out.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Sorry... in the first quarter.

On the 720p link at 23:32 or 2:22 game time.

On your notes:
"2nd and 4 at SF 41 A.Smith pass incomplete short left to R.Moss [J.Brinkley].
ILB blitz came in free... Frank Gore badly missed on the blitz pickup... clearly Alex's accuracy was affected by that LB and the ball sailed beyond Moss and the DBs in the area."

Yay! Now we are on the same page! Wow... Alex really gets blasted by the blitz LB... how is this guy still healthy???

On the TV, yeah.. the throw looks way high and slightly behind Moss... I suspect that Moss was gonna stop his route into a curl at the end. The ball was well on its way before Moss even turns to locate it. Either Alex's throw was intended for an inside seam (and Randy was confused as to the assigned route) or Alex was to throw at the end of Moss' curl but had to unload it due to the blitz LB.

That's all I can make of it..

Oh, and we need to DITCH the zone blocking... our OGs suck at them. Look at Iupati turned to the left to help Staley (when he didn't need help) and allow that blitz LB right into his gap to blast Alex.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
I have to say i think your analysis on Moss is completely off for this game. He was wide open all game and only had 1 I would consider a drop. So out of the 7 targets, he only dropped 1, and caught 3, with the rest being poorly thrown balls..

Three throws to him were either overthrown or behind him. Overthrown at 5:31 left to go in the 1st quarter, where Moss is coming across the field right on 2nd and 6. Thrown behind him at 2:21 left in the 1st quarter, where Moss is lined up on the left side and runs a 10 yard slant to the inside. Overthrown at 13:15 left in the 2nd quarter, where Moss is at the goal line. I actually think Moss had a good day, but the balls just weren't thrown well enough to him.

Did you watch the coaches film? I did, and I agree with the op.

I watched the coaches film and the real game film. I really do not think that the coaches film provides enough depth perception or angle of the three plays I am talking about to the point where someone can blame Moss on those passes. The real game film gives better angles of those passes, and I stand by my earlier statement.

I agree with you on the overthrow at the pylon. But if you watch his route on his 10 yard "slant" on 2nd and 6, he's not running a slant. Nor does he look for the ball. And it is not thrown behind him, Moss hits the ball with his outstretched hand. Had the ball been thrown behind him, it would have hit a defender. Had the ball been thrown any further ahead of him, a defender would have picked it. There was a very small window for Alex to throw into. It could have been a little lower, but it definitely doesn't look behind him. I can't find a link to the actual game footage. If you have one, I'll look there also.

It's in the Niner Talk section called "Vikings Game in 720p" or something along those lines.

Ok, watched it on the 720p link. Same thing. Moss puts his left hand out in front of him and hits it. Moss was not ready for the ball. It's at 23:32 in the video. Moss doesn't even has his head turned until the ball is out of Smith's hand. Smith read immediate pressure and got his just after the throw. Sorry, That's on Moss. That was double coverage. One Vike on Moss' back shoulder the whole way because of the inside move, one Vike in the Zone Moss got into when the ball hit him. That was a pretty good throw.

Ok so it's either a poorly placed ball or its bad route running on Moss. Agree to disagree then.
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