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Week 3: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, can't be proven.

But I can show you pics and clips of a QB actually making plays. Alex doesn't eff up, but he won't make things happen either, which is why it's so hard to prove unless you are watching it and see "it" not happening when the design doesn't work.

What?

He said that Alex left "SO MANY plays on the field.... Minnesota left (some) of those other receivers wide open."

If there were wide open receivers, I'd like to see it on the coaches film because from what I've heard, there were not many. It'd be nice to see some pics of those guys because IMO our play calling was well below even average, and had way too many short or intermediate routes by almost every player. If Alex was the one at fault, It'd be nice to get confirmation. Right now I put the blame on the game plan because it was just so mediocre.

Yeah, I don't agree with leaving open receivers. Every QB does that and no QB sees every open receiver. I'm not going to blame Alex for that. I just get frustrated that he's the most mobile QB that's too much a pocket QB. I don't know how to say it but that's how I'm gonna say it.
[ Edited by Joecool on Sep 25, 2012 at 2:16 PM ]
I wish we would have gone deep a few more times. I know Harrison Smith was a 1st round pick but he is still a rookie. At FS wasn't a backup in... Jamaca Sanford or something? Should have picked on them and even the Vikings fans were saying he sucks and were surprised we didn't go after him. I know that's Alex's game and it works but I would still like to open it up some. One thing you notice though is our OL has gotten better but we still don't see any of those plays like with other teams where the QB has all day. They need to stick with their blocks until the end of the play. I think we need to use Manningham more, guy is quick as heck. More Moss... (more 3 wrs sets). Need to open it up a bit while still establishing the run... more quick throws/slants (especially to crabtree/manningham)
[ Edited by Gore_21 on Sep 25, 2012 at 2:18 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yeah, I don't agree with leaving open receivers. Every QB does that and no QB sees every open receiver. I'm not going to blame Alex for that. I just get frustrated that he's the most mobile QB that's too much a pocket QB. I don't know how to say it but that's how I'm gonna say it.

You keep saying Alex is at fault for not going outside the boundaries of the game design, but IMO when the game design itself is horrid, like I thought it was on Sunday, the boundaries are too narrow even for the most elite quarterback to try and break. The play calling was horrendous and by far the worst under Harbaugh in his entire time here.

We really need to take 3 or 4 shots down the field, not on a specifically designed deep pass for one guy, but just on a play where multiple receivers run deeper routes. That's what is starting to really piss me off about our offense. Alex CAN throw the ball deep, there's not a mental block stopping him from doing so. He has the ability and our coaching staff is just calling some s**tty ass plays IMO
[ Edited by Method on Sep 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM ]
Originally posted by Method:
You keep saying Alex is at fault for not going outside the boundaries of the game design, but IMO when the game design itself is horrid, like I thought it was on Sunday, the boundaries are too narrow even for the most elite quarterback to try and break. The play calling was horrendous and by far the worst under Harbaugh in his entire time here.

We really need to take 3 or 4 shots down the field, not on a specifically designed deep pass for one guy, but just on a play where multiple receivers run deeper routes. That's what is starting to really piss me off about our offense. Alex CAN throw the ball deep, there's not a mental block stopping him from doing so. He has the ability and our coaching staff is just calling some s**tty ass plays IMO

This all day.
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yeah, I don't agree with leaving open receivers. Every QB does that and no QB sees every open receiver. I'm not going to blame Alex for that. I just get frustrated that he's the most mobile QB that's too much a pocket QB. I don't know how to say it but that's how I'm gonna say it.

You keep saying Alex is at fault for not going outside the boundaries of the game design, but IMO when the game design itself is horrid, like I thought it was on Sunday, the boundaries are too narrow even for the most elite quarterback to try and break. The play calling was horrendous and by far the worst under Harbaugh in his entire time here.

We really need to take 3 or 4 shots down the field, not on a specifically designed deep pass for one guy, but just on a play where multiple receivers run deeper routes. That's what is starting to really piss me off about our offense. Alex CAN throw the ball deep, there's not a mental block stopping him from doing so. He has the ability and our coaching staff is just calling some s**tty ass plays IMO

But we did have 3 or 4 deep plays called. One incomplete to Moss, one Alex didn't throw which was open...which is fine...one complete to Vernon and one called to Miller circle like we did last year but MIN defended it.

MIN had to deal with the same thing. We weren't going to give them deep stuff AND we stuffed AP. The difference was Ponder making plays off the scramble or buying that little extra second and then letting it go.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yeah, I don't agree with leaving open receivers. Every QB does that and no QB sees every open receiver. I'm not going to blame Alex for that. I just get frustrated that he's the most mobile QB that's too much a pocket QB. I don't know how to say it but that's how I'm gonna say it.

You keep saying Alex is at fault for not going outside the boundaries of the game design, but IMO when the game design itself is horrid, like I thought it was on Sunday, the boundaries are too narrow even for the most elite quarterback to try and break. The play calling was horrendous and by far the worst under Harbaugh in his entire time here.

We really need to take 3 or 4 shots down the field, not on a specifically designed deep pass for one guy, but just on a play where multiple receivers run deeper routes. That's what is starting to really piss me off about our offense. Alex CAN throw the ball deep, there's not a mental block stopping him from doing so. He has the ability and our coaching staff is just calling some s**tty ass plays IMO

But we did have 3 or 4 deep plays called. One incomplete to Moss, one Alex didn't throw which was open...which is fine...one complete to Vernon and one called to Miller circle like we did last year but MIN defended it.

MIN had to deal with the same thing. We weren't going to give them deep stuff AND we stuffed AP. The difference was Ponder making plays off the scramble or buying that little extra second and then letting it go.

That I can kinda agree with.

Ponder outplayed Alex in this game. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is more a statement tho on how well Ponder played than how badly Alex did.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
That I can kinda agree with.

Ponder outplayed Alex in this game. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is more a statement tho on how well Ponder played than how badly Alex did.

Yep. Ponder played remarkably well... got lucky in the end with that Whitner pick 6... but really well. Even Vikes fans were rather surprised. Our D was outschemed... that much is clear..
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
That I can kinda agree with.

Ponder outplayed Alex in this game. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is more a statement tho on how well Ponder played than how badly Alex did.

Yep. Ponder played remarkably well... got lucky in the end with that Whitner pick 6... but really well. Even Vikes fans were rather surprised. Our D was outschemed... that much is clear..

In all honesty, he got lucky on the TE one-handed blanketed TD. But gotta give him props for having the balls to throw it.

If we play them again, Ponder will not play well, AT ALL. Our defense will have a plan for his mobility. I think that surprised us more than anything.
[ Edited by Joecool on Sep 25, 2012 at 2:39 PM ]
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, can't be proven.

But I can show you pics and clips of a QB actually making plays. Alex doesn't eff up, but he won't make things happen either, which is why it's so hard to prove unless you are watching it and see "it" not happening when the design doesn't work.

What?

He said that Alex left "SO MANY plays on the field.... Minnesota left (some) of those other receivers wide open (because Alex couldn't see them)."

If there were wide open receivers, I'd like to see it on the coaches film because from what I've heard, there were not many. It'd be nice to see some pics of those guys because IMO our play calling was well below even average, and had way too many short or intermediate routes by almost every player. If Alex was the one at fault, It'd be nice to get confirmation. Right now I put the blame on the game plan because it was just so mediocre.

Pretty much this, every time the offense stalled was when there was a pass play that was very limited and if it didn't work as planned then there really wasn't anywhere for him to go, like the roll out on 3rd down after the 94 yard return by Williams to start the 3rd Q. Terribly play call.

Alex was actually pretty accurate in this game up until the middle of the 4th, he made alot of clutch 3rd down conversions after gaining little on the ground, and he was 21 of 27 before the Gore fumble, after which point the wheels just seemed to fall off the offense. Not to say Alex carries no blame because he does, but I thought the playcalling stalled out the drives much more than just Alex not coming through. He had a lot of pressure in this game too.

There has been very little attempt at deep shots down the field, and the fact that Moss has been on the sidelines demonstrates that it's by design. I don't know if they're waiting to add that element or what but they need to start because Moss has been getting separation and defenses are giving him alot of cushion when he's in.
[ Edited by KowboyKiller on Sep 25, 2012 at 2:44 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
That I can kinda agree with.

Ponder outplayed Alex in this game. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is more a statement tho on how well Ponder played than how badly Alex did.

Yep. Ponder played remarkably well... got lucky in the end with that Whitner pick 6... but really well. Even Vikes fans were rather surprised. Our D was outschemed... that much is clear..

In all honesty, he got lucky on the TE one-handed blanketed TD. But gotta give him props for having the balls to throw it.

If we play them again, Ponder will not play well, AT ALL. Our defense will have a plan for his mobility. I think that surprised us more than anything.

I think you're right about being surprised. He just kept escaping and making great passes downfield. That run for the TD really was a surprise. I don't hink the Niners thought he could run that fast.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
That I can kinda agree with.

Ponder outplayed Alex in this game. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is more a statement tho on how well Ponder played than how badly Alex did.

Yep. Ponder played remarkably well... got lucky in the end with that Whitner pick 6... but really well. Even Vikes fans were rather surprised. Our D was outschemed... that much is clear..

In all honesty, he got lucky on the TE one-handed blanketed TD. But gotta give him props for having the balls to throw it.

If we play them again, Ponder will not play well, AT ALL. Our defense will have a plan for his mobility. I think that surprised us more than anything.

I think you're right about being surprised. He just kept escaping and making great passes downfield. That run for the TD really was a surprise. I don't hink the Niners thought he could run that fast.

Yeah! And that one scramble with Aldon chasing him. I though for sure Aldon was going to shoot at him and wrangle him in with those arms but Ponder effen separated. No way he has that game twice. We will keep him in the pocket and collapse it forcing him to make crowded reads.
[ Edited by Joecool on Sep 25, 2012 at 2:49 PM ]
My thoughts after the game...

1) Minnesota played 49er type football and beat us and deserved that win; Turnovers on offense and not being able to create any on defense hurt us..

2) I am just as excited about this 2012 team then I was after wins @ GB and vs DET. I rather this loss come early on the road to a team who deserved it, move on and learn from it. Next week at NYJ will be fun to see how we respond.

3) I know a lot of you posted about Whitner being a liability in coverage against the TE, but I disagree.. Whitner is 5'10-11? Whitner is solid in all phases but he does struggle against bigger tight ends and that is expected baring his height.

4) O-Line needs to help out Alex... The quick throws Alex does out standing on and they are designed to be quick hitters, but the play action time developing plays down the field were not working because the O-Line was getting BLOWN up by Minnesota's front.

5) Watch out for the NFC West!! We are officially 1 game back in the division and you HAVE to give it up to Arizona and Seattle. While we still should be the favorite, the Cards are looking like a team that will make the playoffs and SEA just showed they can not be taken lightly, especially at home. All 3 defenses look good, really good.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
That I can kinda agree with.

Ponder outplayed Alex in this game. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is more a statement tho on how well Ponder played than how badly Alex did.

Yep. Ponder played remarkably well... got lucky in the end with that Whitner pick 6... but really well. Even Vikes fans were rather surprised. Our D was outschemed... that much is clear..

Well we had so many opportunities to shut them down. They killed us on 3rd down all day. Give credit to Ponder, but if we could've gotten a sack there, or not let a guy get open things would've been different. While I agree that we got outschemed, we also got out executed. We had our chances to make plays and we failed pretty much every chance given. We even had a f.g. blocked for bleeps sakes. Just got beat pretty badly in every category.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Gore_21:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Staley had another one too but Alex wouldn't go down; Staley's guy had his lower leg wrapped up, Alex spun, jumped out of it, hopped and threw an incompletion. Sometimes the QB can help the OL too!

Oh, yeah... big credit to alex for that... he almost had a completion 2, gore was right there but couldn't get anything on it. I was like what is alex doing but I didn't know Allen? had his leg.

Edit: And side note, how much better is the right side with an improved Davis and a competent guard next to him? That's rhetorical question. Makes you wonder if at some point with Staley locked up for many years yet if he eventually becomes the RT and Davis goes to LT. Than again Davis is much better against power rushers and Staley is better against speed. Not sure Davis could handle the speed of guys like Allen. Davis loves bull rushers and very few guys can bull rush him but if you get guys like Babin running around him that he struggles with.

Good stuff overall, G21. On that Gore pass, I really have no idea what Frank was doing... just stood there and the ball bounced like a yard in front of him. Why not take a step or two forward and.. oh I don't know... maybe catch it???

Saw that too you two. Same thing on some route running, ad-libing, etc. Guys played like they were all suffering from food poisoning! Just flat and half speed and hoping someone else makes a play.
Originally posted by KowboyKiller:
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, can't be proven.

But I can show you pics and clips of a QB actually making plays. Alex doesn't eff up, but he won't make things happen either, which is why it's so hard to prove unless you are watching it and see "it" not happening when the design doesn't work.

What?

He said that Alex left "SO MANY plays on the field.... Minnesota left (some) of those other receivers wide open (because Alex couldn't see them)."

If there were wide open receivers, I'd like to see it on the coaches film because from what I've heard, there were not many. It'd be nice to see some pics of those guys because IMO our play calling was well below even average, and had way too many short or intermediate routes by almost every player. If Alex was the one at fault, It'd be nice to get confirmation. Right now I put the blame on the game plan because it was just so mediocre.

Pretty much this, every time the offense stalled was when there was a pass play that was very limited and if it didn't work as planned then there really wasn't anywhere for him to go, like the roll out on 3rd down after the 94 yard return by Williams to start the 3rd Q. Terribly play call.

Alex was actually pretty accurate in this game up until the middle of the 4th, he made alot of clutch 3rd down conversions after gaining little on the ground, and he was 21 of 27 before the Gore fumble, after which point the wheels just seemed to fall off the offense. Not to say Alex carries no blame because he does, but I thought the playcalling stalled out the drives much more than just Alex not coming through. He had a lot of pressure in this game too.

There has been very little attempt at deep shots down the field, and the fact that Moss has been on the sidelines demonstrates that it's by design. I don't know if they're waiting to add that element or what but they need to start because Moss has been getting separation and defenses are giving him alot of cushion when he's in.

You echoed my thoughts to a T! Again, not defending Alex here. He had two early bad high passes to Moss and then corrected it for the rest of the game (guess he needed to warm up a bit but it did cost us a TD and a big gainer).

As to the rest, 21 or 27...with more dropped passes. Again, he played very very efficient and made the right reads but its the offensive design and the lack of passing options WHEN that first-hit receiving option isn't open (like in this game a bit). You can just watch the game again and when he has to move in the pocket, roll out or scramble, just look down the field. There is NOBODY. On the other side, the Vikings seemed to have a more back-yard offense where players are used to ad-libing, scrambling, bailing out early instantly, etc. It's what you'd expect from a young QB and offense; make plays with your feet and get open. Granted, these are generally all or nothing results and it usually works against you but Sunday, it worked to perfection against us and my hats off to Ponder and the Vikings.
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 25, 2012 at 3:31 PM ]