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Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Me too! I liked Tyms...only prototypical WCO WR we had!

...and the only "fade guy" we would have next year if/when Moss moves on

It's funny b/c I was thinking back to the old days of the WCO vs. HarBaalke's current team. I don't know if we have a single prototypical WCO player on this team!
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
They signed L Davis a bit late to start right away in the preseason games but they likely know what he is capable of doing. Wouldn't be surprised if he replaced Boone at the first sign of injury by Staley or A Davis. But, I'm more comfortable with this line than I was with last year. L Davis is an upgrade to either Rachal or Snyder, Kilgore has another year under his belt, A Davis and Iupati have another year of experience on a winning team, Goodwin is...Goodwin, so I see an improvement here, if not a solid line.

Add Looney for development and that helps as well. The line looked pretty dominant at times in run blocking...against first team Ds. Now--if they can keep Smith alive!

LOL...right!?

What ppl need to keep in mind is that IF Boone goes down (likely at some point playing in the box), we are screwed. We lose our starting RG and backup T in one. We can fill the starter role with L.Davis/Kilgore but who is our backup T should Staley get nicked up (which has been perpetual over the years)? So it's not just the idea that we would have to change 2/5th of the OL if a T goes down, it's a depth issue as well. The talent is certainly better though. A ton is riding on the health of Boone/Brooks/A.Smith. A ton! It looks the Baalke is aware of this naturally and is working the phones at least for another OLB. This roster is not complete yet!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Me too! I liked Tyms...only prototypical WCO WR we had!

...and the only "fade guy" we would have next year if/when Moss moves on

It's funny b/c I was thinking back to the old days of the WCO vs. HarBaalke's current team. I don't know if we have a single prototypical WCO player on this team!

Yeah, I miss seeing our WRs break a tackle and turn a short pass into a long gain. Crab doesn't have the height, but he has those orangutan arms, and he seems like our only WR who is strong enough to break a tackle, though KW was dragging some guys around last week.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Me too! I liked Tyms...only prototypical WCO WR we had!

...and the only "fade guy" we would have next year if/when Moss moves on

It's funny b/c I was thinking back to the old days of the WCO vs. HarBaalke's current team. I don't know if we have a single prototypical WCO player on this team!

I've been noticing this as well and wonder what Walsh would have thought about the beefy line, fast WRs who are not zone smart, and a group of QBs who are better athletes than QBs at this point. Smith is capable of being a Walsh type QB (extremely efficient hitting the short routes), as is Tolzien, but I wonder about CK? A lot of this is trust and touch, as has been mentioned over the years, so if they can have this WR group together for the year I would bet the short game will greatly improve.

Crabtree seems to be the one real WCO receiver and I hope he shines this year. Williams and Jenkins might be as well but we don't know that right now.

NC--I do think it takes time to develop WCO players so perhaps Harbaugh is just taking the best athletes he can and working on their games as he can? Or do you think he is just not a real WCO guy?
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Me too! I liked Tyms...only prototypical WCO WR we had!

...and the only "fade guy" we would have next year if/when Moss moves on

It's funny b/c I was thinking back to the old days of the WCO vs. HarBaalke's current team. I don't know if we have a single prototypical WCO player on this team!

Yeah, I miss seeing our WRs break a tackle and turn a short pass into a long gain. Crab doesn't have the height, but he has those orangutan arms, and he seems like our only WR who is strong enough to break a tackle, though KW was dragging some guys around last week.

LMAO!!!! Yeah, when was the last time we threw a real slant or post pattern? Had a Roger Craig-like RB? A big physical WR who could out muscle a DB and dominate at the LOS and take one to the house (excellent blocker) all in one package, an OL that could sweep, a pass-to-set-up-the-run mentality, etc. Maybe this year we'll see year 2 of 3 of the WCO installation but I don't know if we have those types of players to execute.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
I'm worried about being so light on OT's. I get that Boone can swing out to tackle (his natural spot) but when he does that, it means one injury changes 2/5ths of the alignment, where as having a back-up tackle would be 1/5th change.

Been my worry from the very beginning...guess Person wasn't the answer; thought we'd pick up a veteran T at least once they decided Boone was the best option at RG over Davis. Scary...same with OLB where all three guys have been injured at some point already.
So let's assume that they move L. Davis in to start at RG, making Boone the swing tackle. Does that make everyone's concerns go away?

Remember last year, when they had Snyder starting at Center all preseason? Boone's better than Snyder, but not sure they're ready to start him at RG in real games.

Been a hot topic all off season. Breaking down the game tape, naturally saw lots of issues with Boone/Davis on that right side. I thought having a veteran monster of Davis starting at RG next to Davis would be much better for now. The real issue is that the coaching staff would not give Boone a real shot to compete at T with Staley/Davis and we all love Boone as he has earned a real shot...but only RG was "open." Still, I think Boone has more upside at T than Staley/Davis and he has trained his entire career to be a T until this off season.

Back to your original question, yes, I think that would make everyone happier b/c we would have a stud back up at T either way and someone REALLY pushing Staley/Davis (who need it), a veteran pro bowler who's playing with fire and at the lowest weight of his career at RG (and all the experience to help Goodwin/David on the right side) and you've got a good backup in G/C in Kilgore (and you could have developed a player like Slowey at C). That would have been my solution from the beginning.

If Boone doesn't pan out at RG though at least he has earned G experience and we already know he can play T so that's a win/win. He does look stronger in the run game than Snyder and we know he is built for pass protection but it will take him a long time to learn the nuances playing in the box next to Goodwin/Davis (naturally). But to me, if you are willing to let him develop at G, why not let him develop as a starter at T where he is a much more natural fit?

Good points, all of them...I think I can sleep better now! Boone is too good to sit on the bench, but having him as swing tackle, while Davis and Davis build continuity, might be the answer.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The NFL is full of former SF TEs. KR is just the lastest...is he as good as Pascoe? I trust the team made good decisions, but they are getting to the point where some of their releases will be painful. The most pain may come on STs where they have lost several key contributors and arguably there two most valuable in Jones and Costanzo.

As far as their two openings on PS are concerned they may be waiting for guys to make up their minds. Wish Owusu could have been signed but...oh well!


Edit: Forgot to mention that coaching and scheme may have made some of these guys look better than they actually are.

A big,big win for Jones, Rueland and Byham as they will both be on NFL rosters this yr.
[ Edited by franklinfan on Sep 2, 2012 at 11:09 AM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Me too! I liked Tyms...only prototypical WCO WR we had!

...and the only "fade guy" we would have next year if/when Moss moves on

It's funny b/c I was thinking back to the old days of the WCO vs. HarBaalke's current team. I don't know if we have a single prototypical WCO player on this team!

I've been noticing this as well and wonder what Walsh would have thought about the beefy line, fast WRs who are not zone smart, and a group of QBs who are better athletes than QBs at this point. Smith is capable of being a Walsh type QB (extremely efficient hitting the short routes), as is Tolzien, but I wonder about CK? A lot of this is trust and touch, as has been mentioned over the years, so if they can have this WR group together for the year I would bet the short game will greatly improve.

Crabtree seems to be the one real WCO receiver and I hope he shines this year. Williams and Jenkins might be as well but we don't know that right now.

NC--I do think it takes time to develop WCO players so perhaps Harbaugh is just taking the best athletes he can and working on their games as he can? Or do you think he is just not a real WCO guy?

Bill Walsh was a smart football man, he came from the old school of big o-line, fast receivers and monster running backs who work between the tackles. He came to SF with a weak roster and developed a system to utilize what he had. Bob Mcitrick was the O-line coach, and favored smaller more athletic O-linemen. As for athletic QB's who could use their legs to beat you, Bill saw this as the next step in offense, he brought Steve Young to the team to be exactly that, a mobile QB who was a threat to run.

Bill seemed to favor guys who were generalists instead of specialist, at least on offense. It seemed like back in those days, everyone on the team from including full backs and running backs were a threat to catch, and all of his backs could run the off-tackle, the sweep, and counter. This is where I think we deviate from Walsh more than our massive o-line. As great as Frank Gore is, he is not a Bill Walsh RB, not that Bill would cut him, but Gore is at his best as an I formation, isolation power runner, probably the best of that breed. Frank, doesn't run the sweep, or play the screen game the way Bill liked, and as a receiver out of the back field he is not a threat.

But in the end, with all the rule changes, and the conditioning changes, who knows what a young Bill Walsh would be doing, and how he would innovate. His short passing offense was the answer to the "Flex" defenses of the 70's. I like JH's ability to innovate, and use all of his personal to his advantage, let's hope he is the next "genius"
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Me too! I liked Tyms...only prototypical WCO WR we had!

...and the only "fade guy" we would have next year if/when Moss moves on

It's funny b/c I was thinking back to the old days of the WCO vs. HarBaalke's current team. I don't know if we have a single prototypical WCO player on this team!

I've been noticing this as well and wonder what Walsh would have thought about the beefy line, fast WRs who are not zone smart, and a group of QBs who are better athletes than QBs at this point. Smith is capable of being a Walsh type QB (extremely efficient hitting the short routes), as is Tolzien, but I wonder about CK? A lot of this is trust and touch, as has been mentioned over the years, so if they can have this WR group together for the year I would bet the short game will greatly improve.

Crabtree seems to be the one real WCO receiver and I hope he shines this year. Williams and Jenkins might be as well but we don't know that right now.

NC--I do think it takes time to develop WCO players so perhaps Harbaugh is just taking the best athletes he can and working on their games as he can? Or do you think he is just not a real WCO guy?

Bill Walsh was a smart football man, he came from the old school of big o-line, fast receivers and monster running backs who work between the tackles. He came to SF with a weak roster and developed a system to utilize what he had. Bob Mcitrick was the O-line coach, and favored smaller more athletic O-linemen. As for athletic QB's who could use their legs to beat you, Bill saw this as the next step in offense, he brought Steve Young to the team to be exactly that, a mobile QB who was a threat to run.

Bill seemed to favor guys who were generalists instead of specialist, at least on offense. It seemed like back in those days, everyone on the team from including full backs and running backs were a threat to catch, and all of his backs could run the off-tackle, the sweep, and counter. This is where I think we deviate from Walsh more than our massive o-line. As great as Frank Gore is, he is not a Bill Walsh RB, not that Bill would cut him, but Gore is at his best as an I formation, isolation power runner, probably the best of that breed. Frank, doesn't run the sweep, or play the screen game the way Bill liked, and as a receiver out of the back field he is not a threat.

But in the end, with all the rule changes, and the conditioning changes, who knows what a young Bill Walsh would be doing, and how he would innovate. His short passing offense was the answer to the "Flex" defenses of the 70's. I like JH's ability to innovate, and use all of his personal to his advantage, let's hope he is the next "genius"

Such a great, great post and spot on IMHO!

Could not agree more re: the RB spot...and now, just b/c OL are much bigger, it doesn't mean they can't be athletic and quick as well (heck, Staley & Davis, Miller, etc. might be in the league's best out in space on the edges blocking down field). WR to me, like the RB, is the biggest difference along with the shift in run to set up the pass philosophy. Ppl forget Rice/Taylor were the two biggest WR's in the game and just dominated small DB's with their physical play and superb RAC/blocking downfield. We have gone, small, quick, speedsters (maybe even borderline fragile). But Crabtree and Jenkins are known for their great hands. It's a different NFL now...while the NFL is going to spread offenses, we are pounding the rock and using play acton for bigger plays a few times a game. And great point about Steve Young/Kaep!
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 2, 2012 at 11:08 AM ]
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Bill Walsh was a smart football man, he came from the old school of big o-line, fast receivers and monster running backs who work between the tackles. He came to SF with a weak roster and developed a system to utilize what he had. Bob Mcitrick was the O-line coach, and favored smaller more athletic O-linemen. As for athletic QB's who could use their legs to beat you, Bill saw this as the next step in offense, he brought Steve Young to the team to be exactly that, a mobile QB who was a threat to run.

Bill seemed to favor guys who were generalists instead of specialist, at least on offense. It seemed like back in those days, everyone on the team from including full backs and running backs were a threat to catch, and all of his backs could run the off-tackle, the sweep, and counter. This is where I think we deviate from Walsh more than our massive o-line. As great as Frank Gore is, he is not a Bill Walsh RB, not that Bill would cut him, but Gore is at his best as an I formation, isolation power runner, probably the best of that breed. Frank, doesn't run the sweep, or play the screen game the way Bill liked, and as a receiver out of the back field he is not a threat.

But in the end, with all the rule changes, and the conditioning changes, who knows what a young Bill Walsh would be doing, and how he would innovate. His short passing offense was the answer to the "Flex" defenses of the 70's. I like JH's ability to innovate, and use all of his personal to his advantage, let's hope he is the next "genius"

I think that Harbaugh is doing a lot of what Walsh did, in a very different league. In a passing league, roadgrading OLineman are less valuable, and are thereby easier to obtain. RBs (other than 4-5 elite ones) are considered to be easy replaceable, and therefore cheap. With defenses going light and quick, the power ground attack plays against league trends to take advantage of weaknesses in the general trend. While I still wish we had receivers that could go up and get the ball, it seems like they are stockpiling quick, smaller guys (again counter to the current league trend). My hope is that they can create enough space for those guys to be dangerous.

Wouldn't it be crazy if phase 2 was already in place? Use the 2 TE power game to smash through the league for a couple of years. When th NFL follows that success and copies that emphasis, forcing defenses to get bigger, you already have CK and LMJ ready to run the spread option, while putting the ball in the air all over the field to a bunch of lightning fast jitterbugs (KW, AJ, NaPalm, Ham). You catch the league napping AGAIN, and continue to take advantage of the adjustments that defenses MUST make, in order to match up against the dominating league trend. Of course, it could be that none of this happens, but what if?

(edit: I don't think BW was ever against mobile QBs. Montana ran for a lot of 1st downs, too.)
[ Edited by WRATHman44 on Sep 2, 2012 at 11:13 AM ]
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Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Yeah, I miss seeing our WRs break a tackle and turn a short pass into a long gain. Crab doesn't have the height, but he has those orangutan arms, and he seems like our only WR who is strong enough to break a tackle, though KW was dragging some guys around last week.

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Bill Walsh was a smart football man, he came from the old school of big o-line, fast receivers and monster running backs who work between the tackles. He came to SF with a weak roster and developed a system to utilize what he had. Bob Mcitrick was the O-line coach, and favored smaller more athletic O-linemen. As for athletic QB's who could use their legs to beat you, Bill saw this as the next step in offense, he brought Steve Young to the team to be exactly that, a mobile QB who was a threat to run.

Bill seemed to favor guys who were generalists instead of specialist, at least on offense. It seemed like back in those days, everyone on the team from including full backs and running backs were a threat to catch, and all of his backs could run the off-tackle, the sweep, and counter. This is where I think we deviate from Walsh more than our massive o-line. As great as Frank Gore is, he is not a Bill Walsh RB, not that Bill would cut him, but Gore is at his best as an I formation, isolation power runner, probably the best of that breed. Frank, doesn't run the sweep, or play the screen game the way Bill liked, and as a receiver out of the back field he is not a threat.

But in the end, with all the rule changes, and the conditioning changes, who knows what a young Bill Walsh would be doing, and how he would innovate. His short passing offense was the answer to the "Flex" defenses of the 70's. I like JH's ability to innovate, and use all of his personal to his advantage, let's hope he is the next "genius"

Agree with most but not the size of the linemen. Walsh placed a priority on players who could move nimbly, have endurance, play two or more positions and who were intelligent...not that Iupati and A Davis aren't quick, but they have had difficulty with quick DLmen. Perhaps it is a development issue rather than talent, but it is harder to change direction when you are 40-60 pounds heavier (they are 6'5" which makes a difference). Walsh did try the Bubba experiment and had to constantly keep on him to reduce his weight for quickness...he was very tall as well and compared to Davis & Iupati he was light. He chose his blockers for endurance over power so that they could dominate in the second halves of games.

His running backs were chosen for dual use and most were very fine receivers. It wasn't just Craig but all his RBs could catch...or they didn't last long. Didn't like one dimensional players--if you had a RB in the backfield who couldn't catch the D didn't have to worry about that dimension. Gore isn't a terrible receiver but I agree with you that he isn't a BW type.

WR is another place where Harbaugh and Walsh do not match. Walsh always had great possession guys who could find open areas when plays broke down and who were in sync with the QB. He wanted to find speedsters who could also be possession guys but seldom did. To me, Crabtree would be ideal for this but he doesn't seem to want this role. Williams works the middle even though he is quite light. It seems to be a desire plus endurance issue and Rice mastered the position. Could run all day and take a pounding...plus he had another gear with the ball in his hands. TEs were also used to stretch the field and find the open center when Ds keyed on the outside or run. This has been missing on the 9ers for several years and VD just isn't that type of TE.

Edit--I do not mean to imply that Harbaugh would not be more similar if he could find the talent, nor did Walsh force his concepts on players but rather used their talents to the fullest.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Sep 2, 2012 at 1:54 PM ]
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Same here cc, I am terrified of what happens if Ginn and guys like Kyle Williams go down. I wouldn't feel great or good with Jenkins, James or even Cox back there.



Maybe Jenkins WILL be a better WR, but right now Ginn is the better WR and won't be inactive just to get the 1st rd pick out there. Jenkins isn't ready, he needs to show more in practice and be mentored more by Moss.

I disagree that Ginn is a better, or even good WR. I think Harbaugh and his staff build Ginn up because they know he is going to be active on gamedays as the returner. If they only activate 4-5 WR, there is a good chance they will need to use him in a game, and a guy w/a history of the dropsies needs to have his confidence high (compare w/what Harbaugh has been saying about Alex and Crabtree, other "shy guys" who seem to benefit from public support from the staff). As to your earlier point that AJ hasn't proven that he is better, I thought he looked more natural and sudden as a route runner, and I think he will prove to have elite hands, once he stops overthinking the game. He can't really prove that he is better w/out playing time.
Totally agree! IMO, Ginn is a horrible WR, after 6 seasons in the league that much obvious. Ginn has one thing on A.J. and that's in the return game but nowhere near the WR A.J. is. You are spot on about him over thinking the game. I also think the fact that he came into camp ill-prepared for JH's camp slowed his camp and preseason as well. But he got a lot better and from what I saw was the much better polished WR than most on our roster, including Ginn. What the kid needs is reps, and if he gets them I have no doubt that he'll be starting by the bye week, in my opinion.
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Same here cc, I am terrified of what happens if Ginn and guys like Kyle Williams go down. I wouldn't feel great or good with Jenkins, James or even Cox back there.



Maybe Jenkins WILL be a better WR, but right now Ginn is the better WR and won't be inactive just to get the 1st rd pick out there. Jenkins isn't ready, he needs to show more in practice and be mentored more by Moss.

I disagree that Ginn is a better, or even good WR. I think Harbaugh and his staff build Ginn up because they know he is going to be active on gamedays as the returner. If they only activate 4-5 WR, there is a good chance they will need to use him in a game, and a guy w/a history of the dropsies needs to have his confidence high (compare w/what Harbaugh has been saying about Alex and Crabtree, other "shy guys" who seem to benefit from public support from the staff). As to your earlier point that AJ hasn't proven that he is better, I thought he looked more natural and sudden as a route runner, and I think he will prove to have elite hands, once he stops overthinking the game. He can't really prove that he is better w/out playing time.
Totally agree! IMO, Ginn is a horrible WR, after 6 seasons in the league that much obvious. Ginn has one thing on A.J. and that's in the return game but nowhere near the WR A.J. is. You are spot on about him over thinking the game. I also think the fact that he came into camp ill-prepared for JH's camp slowed his camp and preseason as well. But he got a lot better and from what I saw was the much better polished WR than most on our roster, including Ginn. What the kid needs is reps, and if he gets them I have no doubt that he'll be starting by the bye week, in my opinion.

Starting? Seriously? Over Moss, Manningham or Crabtree? I doubt that happens this year. What happens with Kyle Williams? I love AJ as a WR, but he isn't among the top 4 WRs, he is the 6th WR right now, if he wasn't a 1st rd pick, he wouldn't of made the team. He showed very little in preseason, and when he did it was against backup DBs. When he does stuff Moss and Manningham has done against 1st team DBs, then I will call him a Top 2 WR on this team, till then he doesn't get in. Maiocco already said 4 WRs active(Including Ginn) on game days.