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Will the offensive line hold back the 49ers offense this season?

Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by niners420:
I thought FINALLY after last year people would stop putting any stock whatsoever in preseason performance. Otherwise Thomas Clayton would be the next Jim Brown. Remember our OL in last year's preseason opener vs. New Orleans? It looked like we couldn't block a pop warner team. Yet when the regular season rolled around, Staley was a pro bowl starter and All Pro, our youngsters in Iupati/Davis took a nice step forward and should again this year with their first real offseason. Goodwin is rock solid and our RG play can't possibly be worse than last year.
they were terrible for 3/4 of the year last year

Is there data for how many times did the O-Line get blitzed?

wondering if the terrible play was due to not picking up the blitz or we just sucked even on a 3 or 4 man rush
[ Edited by 49AllTheTime on Aug 23, 2012 at 11:21 AM ]
Originally posted by cciowa:
they were terrible for 3/4 of the year last year

No chance. Considering that after Morgan went down early and Crabtree was our only NFL caliber WR for most of the year, defenses were able to really stack the box so the fact that we were still able to have an outstanding ground game speaks volumes to the OL's play.

As for sacks, we allowed 44 but there is WAY more that goes into sacks than just how good the pass pro was (after all, it's not like Brett Swain and Joe Hastings burn defenses all the time and get open super fast lol). Plus, 20 of the 44 sacks we allowed came in 3 games (all where Rachal played, including Ravens game where we had zero time to prepare). So in 13 of the 16 games we only allowed 24 sacks which is outstanding.
[ Edited by niners420 on Aug 23, 2012 at 11:43 AM ]
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Er... Not at all saying you can tell from preseason to regular season, but our OL was not at all as wonderful as you described it to be.. at least not in most of the away games and about a half to a third of the overall games. Now some weeks, they were solid... but others, far less so. Goodwin was pretty awful for the first quarter of the season... and for the whole season, was graded as a bottom 5 C in the league... right next to a bottom 3 RG in Snyder.

I do think they will be better this season though... and that they were not awesome or awful in these two prior preseason games.

Goodwin wasn't that bad. Wasn't he a first team alternate to the pro bowl too?
Originally posted by niners420:
Goodwin wasn't that bad. Wasn't he a first team alternate to the pro bowl too?

Don't know.. and I agree he wasn't bottom 3 bad... but he wasn't good.
Originally posted by niners420:
Originally posted by cciowa:
they were terrible for 3/4 of the year last year

No chance. Considering that after Morgan went down early and Crabtree was our only NFL caliber WR for most of the year, defenses were able to really stack the box so the fact that we were still able to have an outstanding ground game speaks volumes to the OL's play.

As for sacks, we allowed 44 but there is WAY more that goes into sacks than just how good the pass pro was (after all, it's not like Brett Swain and Joe Hastings burn defenses all the time and get open super fast lol). Plus, 20 of the 44 sacks we allowed came in 3 games (all where Rachal played, including Ravens game where we had zero time to prepare). So in 13 of the 16 games we only allowed 24 sacks which is outstanding.

True and I think we highlighted that last year there were many factors that played into sacks (play calling, no WR's who can get separation, no deep threat, no off season, new coaches/scheme, QB learning new system, poor pre snap reads, etc.).

But this OL also lead the league in pressures under 3 seconds. To me, THAT is critical b/c Alex is very mobile himself and probably avoided another 44 sacks on his own.

So now, fast forward to the present...first drive in pre season in a real-game-like scenario and the Texans only rushed more than 4 guys 2 times (two delayed 5th rusher) and POUNDED Alex again. So it goes well above just a pre season game.

It comes down to watching film objectively and seeing the exact same issues we had last year and an issue that could easily keep us from making the playoffs no matter what new weapons we have on the outside.

We, of all organizations should know, for a WCO (in particular), everything starts/ends with the OL esp. in pass protection.
[ Edited by NCommand on Aug 23, 2012 at 12:38 PM ]
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
As figured, not a single person who says the OL is fine or who blames Alex has anything to add other than a blanket statement.

Still waiting for some objective film review. Anyone?
I know this is not what you were asking for NC but just wanted to say i am in your corner when it comes to the OL. i go by sacks allowed. we were in the top tier in the nfl in that last year. from what i can tell they have done nothing but sign davis and draft a rookie with a broken foot to fix things. i am very concerned. now sorry and i hope someone answers you

This is why I just stop reading after, "If Alex..." or "It's fine..." re: the OL b/c clearly these ppl have not done their homework nor could they provide any substance to a real concern. We all know who they are...the Alex haters (some in disguise) or the baby posters (b/c they make "blanket" statements) and assume all will be fine. No doubt we have talent...lots of it, even on the OL. But until I see any real, consistent play by them, it will be hard to envision this team a champion.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
As figured, not a single person who says the OL is fine or who blames Alex has anything to add other than a blanket statement.

Still waiting for some objective film review. Anyone?
I know this is not what you were asking for NC but just wanted to say i am in your corner when it comes to the OL. i go by sacks allowed. we were in the top tier in the nfl in that last year. from what i can tell they have done nothing but sign davis and draft a rookie with a broken foot to fix things. i am very concerned. now sorry and i hope someone answers you

This is why I just stop reading after, "If Alex..." or "It's fine..." re: the OL b/c clearly these ppl have not done their homework nor could they provide any substance to a real concern. We all know who they are...the Alex haters (some in disguise) or the baby posters (b/c they make "blanket" statements) and assume all will be fine. No doubt we have talent...lots of it, even on the OL. But until I see any real, consistent play by them, it will be hard to envision this team a champion.

Even if Gore
Originally posted by KowboyKiller:
Even if Gore

Gire. LOL
Originally posted by NCommand:
True and I think we highlighted that last year there were many factors that played into sacks (play calling, no WR's who can get separation, no deep threat, no off season, new coaches/scheme, QB learning new system, poor pre snap reads, etc.).

But this OL also lead the league in pressures under 3 seconds. To me, THAT is critical b/c Alex is very mobile himself and probably avoided another 44 sacks on his own.

So now, fast forward to the present...first drive in pre season in a real-game-like scenario and the Texans only rushed more than 4 guys 2 times (two delayed 5th rusher) and POUNDED Alex again. So it goes well above just a pre season game.

It comes down to watching film objectively and seeing the exact same issues we had last year and an issue that could easily keep us from making the playoffs no matter what new weapons we have on the outside.

We, of all organizations should know, for a WCO (in particular), everything starts/ends with the OL esp. in pass protection.

If we led the league in pressure under 3 seconds, it's only because defenses could freely bring more guys than we had blockers because it was so easy to match guys up 1 on 1 on the outside with guys like Ginn/Williams/Swain/Hastings being the WR's outside Crabtree all year long.

And I really don't care how bad or good we look in the preseason because there couldn't be less of a correlation to how that translates to the regular season. Look at the '08 Lions. 4-0 preseason, 0-16 regular season. Look at Thomas Clayton. Look at Boobie Dixon. Look at James Jordan or Arland Bruce III. Look at how our OL looked last August vs. New Orleans. NOTHING bad that happens in preseason worries me (outside of injuries of course, just talking about performance) just like NOTHING good that happens in preseason excites me. I've learned my lesson when I thought Thomas Clayton should be fitted for a yellow jacket. When will everyone else?

Look at what the preseason is in a nutshell. 90% of the time you're watching guys that either won't wind up having an NFL career or will be an irrelevant/obscure backup or practice squad player. And even when there are starters in, they are just going through the motions and don't give a crap and are just trying to not get hurt. Throw in the complete lack of gameplanning/scheming with only the vanilla-est of play calling, and it's absolutely WORTHLESS to try and derive any insight whatsoever from preseason.
Originally posted by NCommand:
This is why I just stop reading after, "If Alex..." or "It's fine..." re: the OL b/c clearly these ppl have not done their homework nor could they provide any substance to a real concern. We all know who they are...the Alex haters (some in disguise) or the baby posters (b/c they make "blanket" statements) and assume all will be fine. No doubt we have talent...lots of it, even on the OL. But until I see any real, consistent play by them, it will be hard to envision this team a champion.

The consistent play was demonstrated by only allowing 24 sacks in our 13 non-Rachal games (despite the dearth of NFL caliber WR's, no offseason, and all those other factors we mentioned working against them) and by having a great ground game despite facing loaded boxes constantly.
Originally posted by niners420:
Originally posted by NCommand:
True and I think we highlighted that last year there were many factors that played into sacks (play calling, no WR's who can get separation, no deep threat, no off season, new coaches/scheme, QB learning new system, poor pre snap reads, etc.).

But this OL also lead the league in pressures under 3 seconds. To me, THAT is critical b/c Alex is very mobile himself and probably avoided another 44 sacks on his own.

So now, fast forward to the present...first drive in pre season in a real-game-like scenario and the Texans only rushed more than 4 guys 2 times (two delayed 5th rusher) and POUNDED Alex again. So it goes well above just a pre season game.

It comes down to watching film objectively and seeing the exact same issues we had last year and an issue that could easily keep us from making the playoffs no matter what new weapons we have on the outside.

We, of all organizations should know, for a WCO (in particular), everything starts/ends with the OL esp. in pass protection.

If we led the league in pressure under 3 seconds, it's only because defenses could freely bring more guys than we had blockers because it was so easy to match guys up 1 on 1 on the outside with guys like Ginn/Williams/Swain/Hastings being the WR's outside Crabtree all year long.

And I really don't care how bad or good we look in the preseason because there couldn't be less of a correlation to how that translates to the regular season. Look at the '08 Lions. 4-0 preseason, 0-16 regular season. Look at Thomas Clayton. Look at Boobie Dixon. Look at James Jordan or Arland Bruce III. Look at how our OL looked last August vs. New Orleans. NOTHING bad that happens in preseason worries me (outside of injuries of course, just talking about performance) just like NOTHING good that happens in preseason excites me. I've learned my lesson when I thought Thomas Clayton should be fitted for a yellow jacket. When will everyone else?

Look at what the preseason is in a nutshell. 90% of the time you're watching guys that either won't wind up having an NFL career or will be an irrelevant/obscure backup or practice squad player. And even when there are starters in, they are just going through the motions and don't give a crap and are just trying to not get hurt. Throw in the complete lack of gameplanning/scheming with only the vanilla-est of play calling, and it's absolutely WORTHLESS to try and derive any insight whatsoever from preseason.

I agree with most everything you said...only difference is we're seeing a clear pattern here that extends beyond one pre season drive against a good defense (that didn't even have Watts) and simple 4 man pressures. And more importantly, whether the OL is in to it or not, your STARTING QB is taking a pounding and should he go down with another shoulder destruction b/c of an OL, the year is over before it starts. So I don't buy it. I never bought the pre season stars as well but then again, we had horrendous coaches back then and who knows how the aforementioned would be playing if they were on our team today. But I digress...consistent pattern = cause for concern whether its all on the OL or a strong combination of things. The point is...the problem still clearly exists.
Originally posted by niners420:
The consistent play was demonstrated by only allowing 24 sacks in our 13 non-Rachal games (despite the dearth of NFL caliber WR's, no offseason, and all those other factors we mentioned working against them) and by having a great ground game despite facing loaded boxes constantly.

So what's the excuse now then?
Originally posted by NCommand:
So what's the excuse now then?

Preseason. Just like I wasn't worried after the NO game last August even though our OL looked bad enough to make Kentwan Balmer look like Bryant Young.
Originally posted by niners420:
Originally posted by NCommand:
So what's the excuse now then?

Preseason. Just like I wasn't worried after the NO game last August even though our OL looked bad enough to make Kentwan Balmer look like Bryant Young.

LOL. So now we had Moss, Manningham, a healthy Crabtee, LML, Hunter lighting it up, Miller is a stud, VD, etc...and Alex was getting killed against simple 4 and 5 man rushes. But since it is pre season, we'll just dismiss the obvious pattern here.

In the end, I seriously hope you are right and we can just dismiss it all and this OL is going to pass protect like a campion and run block even better than last year! Cheers
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Originally posted by niners420:
Originally posted by NCommand:
So what's the excuse now then?

Preseason. Just like I wasn't worried after the NO game last August even though our OL looked bad enough to make Kentwan Balmer look like Bryant Young.

You're right in that you can't take preseason statistics in a vacuum and just cite them for reference. And the win or the loss is irrelevant. But to say that preseason games don't matter at all is also at the other extreme of the same argument. When the first team offense and defense are battling you can make judgements about how the team is playing. You can evaluate footwork and technique. What do you think coaches look at when they evaluate film? You think they just chuck all the preseason film out of the window? No - they take a look at how a player performs against his competition.

This is what I did with the offensive line. I've maintained they are an average line with the potential to be a great line if the right side continues to develop. If not, the right side of the line will be a real liability and indeed hold the offense back. I'm not comparing a 2nd string RG RG playing against a 1st string DT or DE. It's starter vs starter and on a couple plays, the line either didn't communicate or missed a basic stunt. Those kinds of problems, if they continue into the regular season, will doom the offense. New WRs are great, but if you only have 2.5 seconds to develop a route then the new toys are useless.