Better Defensive Player?

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by BrianGO:
Not only is Justin Smith far and away the best player at his position, he was the best defensive player in the league last year.

It could easily be argued that Bowman outplayed Willis last year.

In a league that values pass rush and playmaking stats, I doubt that. He didn't win DPOY, Suggs did.

As for guys within his own position, Jared Allen? 22 sacks, 8 more tackles than Smith, a safety, one more FF than Smith, an interception...So I would say he was better. Then you can look at a guy like Jean Pierre Paul with easily the most tackles at his position, 16.5 sacks, a safety, and 2 FF. (not to mention a dominant postseason)

That's just without going into guys with fewer tackles but way more sacks, guys like Babin, clemons, long and avril.

Bowman would have outplayed willis IF all that mattered was stopping the run. These days dominating the run is a luxury compared to stopping the pass. Turnovers are also key, and Bowman had zero forced fumbles compared to Willis' 4(in fewer games).

You obviously do not understand the difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE.

The nice thing about both these guys, and the rest of the team, is that they just want to contribute and win. No ego issues! I think Justin Smith would agree to play NT if he were asked. Same for Willis...cover guys deep? Sure thing! They want a ring first, glory after. Same with the offense. Moss has made it clear that he wants to leave this game with a better reputation and I hope he can maintain that attitude.

Justin Smith was the better player last year

Originally posted by Leathaface:
You obviously do not understand the difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE.

Sure I do. I'm not doubting the impact he makes to this team. In fact I said that if you're talking about the guy I think our defense could survive longer without it would be Willis. Smith holds down the fort for us and has a constant motor.

But when you're talking about the BEST guys at his position, regardless of whether or not it's a 4-3 or 3-4, you're going to pick the guys who make the most plays. Rack up tons of sacks, tackles, and forced fumbles. It's a stat league period.

Similarly you wouldn't say that the best LBs in the league aren't really the best because they're in a 3-4 which clearly favors them so we should always pick a 4-3 linebacker as the best instead. If that was the case Willis and Lewis wouldn't be considered the best. Suggs wouldn't have won DPOY.

Man thats a tough question......but I think JS beats out Willis by a very slim, almost not seen, fine line.......

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by Leathaface:
You obviously do not understand the difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE.

Sure I do. I'm not doubting the impact he makes to this team. In fact I said that if you're talking about the guy I think our defense could survive longer without it would be Willis. Smith holds down the fort for us and has a constant motor.

But when you're talking about the BEST guys at his position, regardless of whether or not it's a 4-3 or 3-4, you're going to pick the guys who make the most plays. Rack up tons of sacks, tackles, and forced fumbles. It's a stat league period.

Similarly you wouldn't say that the best LBs in the league aren't really the best because they're in a 3-4 which clearly favors them so we should always pick a 4-3 linebacker as the best instead. If that was the case Willis and Lewis wouldn't be considered the best. Suggs wouldn't have won DPOY.

just to clarify.

the best player is the player with the best stats?

Originally posted by BrianGO:
Not only is Justin Smith far and away the best player at his position, he was the best defensive player in the league last year.

It could easily be argued that Bowman outplayed Willis last year.

Lol based on what exactly? Tackle numbers? If that is what you are going off of there then there were 39 LBs who outplayed Willis last year. Bowman is a very good linebacker but Patrick Willis is the reason our linebacking corps are far and away the best in the league.

Originally posted by mike:

But when you're talking about the BEST guys at his position, regardless of whether or not it's a 4-3 or 3-4, you're going to pick the guys who make the most plays.

It doesn't work that way. You can't just say "regardless of 4-3 or 3-4" as if the difference in their roles is irrelevant. It may not be as clear-cut as the apples and oranges application of a 3-4 DE and a MLB... but the 3-4 and 4-3 DEs have to be looked upon as different fruits altogether.

Pro Football Weekly listed Justin Smith as #2 player in the entire NFL! NFL Top 100 will reveal JS will rank higher than Willis. As everyone else, I love Willis! He gets a clean shot at RBs because of JS.

Patrick Willis, but by the slimmest of margins.

Originally posted by kdogg:
Pro Football Weekly listed Justin Smith as #2 player in the entire NFL! NFL Top 100 will reveal JS will rank higher than Willis. As everyone else, I love Willis! He gets a clean shot at RBs because of JS.

tough question, but yeah, it starts in the trenches and JS is the reason our LB can runaround and make plays.

Originally posted by dtcomposer:
I tried to explain it above. Justin is a great athlete compared to me. He is a great athlete compared to Daniel Kilgore, but he isn't the best athlete at his position. At least it is debatable. Patrick Willis is a freak show. That is all I am saying.

He's easily one of the best athletes at his position (the most athletic in all of football). How many other guys weigh 280 and run a 4.6 AND can also play all day long? Peppers has the skills, not the same kind of motor or endurance also not as strong. Williams has similar baseline skills, but again the endurance isn't on the same level. Forget that fundamentally speaking Justin never makes mistakes ever.

His best passrush move is the hand slap by the way. He has come in while splitting two guys who are holding him so many times I couldn't realistically count on myself and 20 other people's hands. And he does it by knocking their arms away from him and then exploding through them putting them off balance with his power and explosion.

The only guy who has gotten more pressure on the QB the last 3 years is Demarcus Ware, a position far better suited to getting pressure than 3-4 end.

Your contention about Willis simply is not true. I have seen Willis have bad games and he has a ways to go before he'll be in the GOAT discussion (which I see some people mention here). He's made mistakes and had bad games as a Niner. Justin on the other hand has not. Our defense went to crap when Justin left the Chargers game for a reason. Patrick is a great MLB, probably the best in the league but maybe not the best LB. Justin is the best DL in the league.

It's a good problem to have.

Originally posted by Chief:
How beautiful is it that we can have this argument?

I certainly am not complaining.

Originally posted by mike:
Sure I do. I'm not doubting the impact he makes to this team. In fact I said that if you're talking about the guy I think our defense could survive longer without it would be Willis. Smith holds down the fort for us and has a constant motor.

But when you're talking about the BEST guys at his position, regardless of whether or not it's a 4-3 or 3-4, you're going to pick the guys who make the most plays. Rack up tons of sacks, tackles, and forced fumbles. It's a stat league period.

Similarly you wouldn't say that the best LBs in the league aren't really the best because they're in a 3-4 which clearly favors them so we should always pick a 4-3 linebacker as the best instead. If that was the case Willis and Lewis wouldn't be considered the best. Suggs wouldn't have won DPOY.

Every guy you mention had less combined hits, pressures and sacks than Justin did this year and also the past 3 years.

Only Ware had/has more.

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

You obviously do not understand the difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE.

Sure I do. I'm not doubting the impact he makes to this team. In fact I said that if you're talking about the guy I think our defense could survive longer without it would be Willis. Smith holds down the fort for us and has a constant motor.

But when you're talking about the BEST guys at his position, regardless of whether or not it's a 4-3 or 3-4, you're going to pick the guys who make the most plays. Rack up tons of sacks, tackles, and forced fumbles. It's a stat league period.

Similarly you wouldn't say that the best LBs in the league aren't really the best because they're in a 3-4 which clearly favors them so we should always pick a 4-3 linebacker as the best instead. If that was the case Willis and Lewis wouldn't be considered the best. Suggs wouldn't have won DPOY.

4-3 DE and 3-4 DE are different positions