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we gave up 44 sacks

Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Sign Carl Nicks form the Saints. He's one of the main reasons Brees gets all those yards.


Why Not? If it wasn't for the that line he would'nt have all that time to throw like he does. He's was a probowler the last 2 years and a first team all-pro this year at a postion (RG) that we have had a hard time filling for several years.

Edit: he plays LG not RG. My bad!
[ Edited by Ramp19smoker on Mar 9, 2012 at 12:53 AM ]
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Sign Carl Nicks form the Saints. He's one of the main reasons Brees gets all those yards.


Why Not? If it wasn't for the that line he would'nt have all that time to throw like he does.

Drew Brees has some of the best footwork that the NFL has ever seen. The speed at which he gets into his drop backs is almost unmatched by anyone. Its not like he has forever to throw the ball. His quick feet, release and decision making is why he throws for all those yards and isnt sacked a ton.
Originally posted by HearstFan:
For a couple of games I watched NFL rewind purposefully to see how the OL did on blitzes. THEY WERE HORRIBLE. Even in the Saints playoff game, DB blitzes were declared by the DB lining up basically on the line of scrimmage, and the blocking left them unaccounted for. So I thought, No OL would do that habitually or on purpose. So the OL must have assumed the play design was for a quick throw. WRONG. At least as far as I could tell, the receivers were not breaking routes quick to get throws. Even GORE, he would whiff on blocks or release into patterns without ever looking back as the blitz blew up the play. In some cases, a receiver never even looked back for a throw until a rusher was already sacking Smith!

This is NOT a defense of Smith. (As a matter of fact, I hope Smith had the balls to go to the sideline and ask "What the f**k. We can't game plan for this somehow!" But you know he doesn't do that, he keeps his mouth shut.)

But in reality, IMHO, this failure falls squarely on the OL/RB/TE coaching AND the OC. Now, the only exception for that statement would be if the coaching knew the talent was so bad that trying to do more would result in even bigger problems. (I will say, that despite ASnyder being an upgrade over Rachel, he was often whiffing on his blocks).

Good post..
Originally posted by 12b6demurrer:

Wow, can't remember Alex ever even having half of that amount of time on a play. Same with Brees... one reason for these QBs success is they have enough time to sit in the pocket and eventually someone will get open. Very few QBs (like Roethlisberger) can have bad lines and succeed. He does it by making people miss and breaking tackles and keeping the play alive but he also takes a beating. Don't want to turn this into an Alex praising thread because he has a long ways to go but that's one thing he has gotten tremendously better at is avoiding sacks and scrambling. He isn't as hesitant as he use to be but still at times he could run but doesn't. Then again I have seen a lot of times Alex makes a nice move and escapes a tackler but there are 3 other guys there waiting for him. I would have no problem paying Nicks or even Grubbs top money if it meant losing Carlos Rogers. Making him to LG and Iupati to RG or even keeping it the same and moving Nicks to RG makes everyone on the line instantly better. Staley, Goodwin, Davis, Iupati would all benefit from Nicks.
[ Edited by Gore_21 on Mar 9, 2012 at 12:29 AM ]
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Sign Carl Nicks form the Saints. He's one of the main reasons Brees gets all those yards.


Why Not? If it wasn't for the that line he would'nt have all that time to throw like he does.

Drew Brees has some of the best footwork that the NFL has ever seen. The speed at which he gets into his drop backs is almost unmatched by anyone. Its not like he has forever to throw the ball. His quick feet, release and decision making is why he throws for all those yards and isnt sacked a ton.

I know Brees has great footwork, a quick release, and is a great QB but he would not have broken the NFL record for passing yards without that line and Nicks is multiple pro bowler and key player on that line. I don't care how good his footwork is he never would have broken that record behind the Niners line. The Saints line only gave up 24 sacks, tied for the second-fewest in the NFL and has 3 pro bowlers in Nicks, Evans, and Bushrod. His pro bowl line is the main reason he doesn't get sacked not his footwork (which does help but not the main reason)! Give Smith that line (we all know his line gave up 44 sacks most in the NFL) and he wouldn't be at Brees level and wouldn't break the Passing yards record but he would look much better and I wouldn't be suprised if he made the pro bowl.
[ Edited by Ramp19smoker on Mar 9, 2012 at 12:57 AM ]
  • mike
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,827
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Why Not? If it wasn't for the that line he would'nt have all that time to throw like he does.

Brees is also one of the best in the league at eluding a lot of sacks with his feet or by ditching the ball really quickly(out of bounds or to whomever he sees), and defenses can't just blitz him without opening up holes in the secondary. We solved this by getting pressure on him with just 4 and keeping the rest in coverage but many teams can't do that successfully. In that game any other QB takes 2 or 3 more sacks easily, and quite a few more during the reg season.

Alex Smith does need to get better at eluding sacks(sensing pressure and just moving to get the half a second necessary to throw instead of taking hits), but this debate of "QB vs 'the situation'" does have some sort of middle ground. If we had another big WR target he wouldn't have to hold the ball as long. If we had nicks we would solidify the line and give Alex more time to make multiple reads. If we have all of this then there are no more "alexcuses".

Yet there will always be the thought that a QB either gets the job done or he doesn't. People hate when blame goes toward other positions like WR or OL. It's a complex ying yang thing where you don't really ever know whose "fault" it is. My bet is it's a bit of both. Alex clearly is not brees in the pocket, someone breaks through that line he's too busy trying to figure out who's open to even slightly notice a guy bull rushing him. He'll hang on to the ball and take a hit way too often. But at the same time our o-line needs to be better. Iupati had an uncharacteristic off year, Staley and he had problems working together in the beginning of the year, Goodwin was a brand new center and took time to adjust, Snyder/Rachal/Davis all got blown up at one time or another.

Would I want Nicks? If we can't get a high profile WR I think this is a fine option. The only way you get Smith to throw deep is if he gets some time and confidence in the line. So since we're getting a deep/redzone target in the draft we need the time to throw to him. The only issue may be when we try to resign the rest of the line, will be hard as hell to keep everyone if we pay too much for nicks.
And I like to touch myself at night! What's new?
matt miller just ranked snyder as the worst starting RG in the league =/

i say get ben grubbs....tell anthony davis to man the f*** up...bulk up beeler!
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Sign Carl Nicks form the Saints. He's one of the main reasons Brees gets all those yards.


Why Not? If it wasn't for the that line he would'nt have all that time to throw like he does. He's was a probowler the last 2 years and a first team all-pro this year at a postion (RG) that we have had a hard time filling for several years.

Edit: he plays LG not RG. My bad!
Because in order to sign him we have to make him the highest paid Guard EVER!!! lol Besides i'd rather resign our guys, and build with the draft, rather then spend all the cap on one guy.
Originally posted by mike:
Originally posted by Ramp19smoker:
Why Not? If it wasn't for the that line he would'nt have all that time to throw like he does.

Brees is also one of the best in the league at eluding a lot of sacks with his feet or by ditching the ball really quickly(out of bounds or to whomever he sees), and defenses can't just blitz him without opening up holes in the secondary. We solved this by getting pressure on him with just 4 and keeping the rest in coverage but many teams can't do that successfully. In that game any other QB takes 2 or 3 more sacks easily, and quite a few more during the reg season.

Alex Smith does need to get better at eluding sacks(sensing pressure and just moving to get the half a second necessary to throw instead of taking hits), but this debate of "QB vs 'the situation'" does have some sort of middle ground. If we had another big WR target he wouldn't have to hold the ball as long. If we had nicks we would solidify the line and give Alex more time to make multiple reads. If we have all of this then there are no more "alexcuses".

Yet there will always be the thought that a QB either gets the job done or he doesn't. People hate when blame goes toward other positions like WR or OL. It's a complex ying yang thing where you don't really ever know whose "fault" it is. My bet is it's a bit of both. Alex clearly is not brees in the pocket, someone breaks through that line he's too busy trying to figure out who's open to even slightly notice a guy bull rushing him. He'll hang on to the ball and take a hit way too often. But at the same time our o-line needs to be better. Iupati had an uncharacteristic off year, Staley and he had problems working together in the beginning of the year, Goodwin was a brand new center and took time to adjust, Snyder/Rachal/Davis all got blown up at one time or another.

Would I want Nicks? If we can't get a high profile WR I think this is a fine option. The only way you get Smith to throw deep is if he gets some time and confidence in the line. So since we're getting a deep/redzone target in the draft we need the time to throw to him. The only issue may be when we try to resign the rest of the line, will be hard as hell to keep everyone if we pay too much for nicks.

Good point but i think the line should be priority. A deep threat WR will not have time to get open unless the line is improved. If the line doesn't improve in some way or another we will ahve alot of the same problems wven if we sign a high profile WR. We need to fix the line first. As Bill Walsh has said, the receiver is the last part of putting together an offense. A good analogyis like in baseball you don't get the closer until your rotation is set.
double post
[ Edited by Ramp19smoker on Mar 9, 2012 at 1:29 AM ]
triple post
[ Edited by Ramp19smoker on Mar 9, 2012 at 1:30 AM ]
  • mike
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,827
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Because in order to sign him we have to make him the highest paid Guard EVER!!! lol Besides i'd rather resign our guys, and build with the draft, rather then spend all the cap on one guy.

Yeah that makes sense, and what sorta sucks is somehow all of these teams with strong OL's get these gem OL picks like Nicks(4th rounder)... Why can't we find guys like him in the 4th?? lol. We have more 1st rounders in our line than most of these great o-lines.

Snyder honestly is pretty bad, it's just that he looked decent compared to Rachal. If we could get someone better whether through the draft or a lower priced FA it would be ideal compared to resigning snyder and hoping kilgore is enough competition.
quadruple post
[ Edited by Ramp19smoker on Mar 9, 2012 at 1:31 AM ]
Don't know why my last reply posted so many times. MY bad!
[ Edited by Ramp19smoker on Mar 9, 2012 at 1:12 AM ]