What keeps the offense from begin elite

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
So the throw is all that gave the db prime position not the fact our receivers weren't trying to go after a pass, weren't fighting for position on the ball. Like I said before its the whole offense that's holding themselves back not any single player. If you want to keep believing our receivers are fine alex is the problem and the rediculous comment about our o line being one of the best in the league yet we still had 40+ sacks. Go ahead and keep telling yourself that. But until our whole offense gets on the same page we will remain the team that win 75% of our games because of our defense or special teams.

The OL personnel has improved but the sacks haven't. The WR personnel may improve but their production won't. The QB, only when it is Alex, is the least responsible for offensive production...unless it's Shaun Hill or someone because then we don't get big plays because he can't throw it far.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by walker807:
Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

If Braylon Edwards would have worked out at a level similar to his role with the Jets, he, along with a healthy Joshua Morgan would have had a huge impact on the offense.

Yes and we will probably get Morgan back. Still don't want to spend 7 mil for a FA unless they are going to be good for 100 catches which isn't likely in this offense which means we can draft one instead.

Would rather have Fleener. Crabs and Morgan are good for 60-80 catches but Delanie is not good for 400-600 yards and redzone threat. Fleener would give us that.

Wallace is the only FA that I would spend money on. Other than that, Fleener with one of the speedy smurfs like Joe Adams would suit me just fine.

I am a big Jimmy Graham fan, also influenced by what Gronkowski did. Both of those guys changed the dynamic of their team in less than two years. Brees and Brady would often just toss up it up and they would make the catch easily over the smaller DB. Graham, in particular, with his BB skills is declared "open" just lining up at the LOS. I see Fleener doing the same thing. Along with Vernon Davis, the combination of size and speed would be fun to watch.

You lost me joe, I never said Alex is the "least responsable" for offensive production. I said its the whole offense that's responsable. What annoys me is the people who try to single it out to one players fault. For gods sake its a 14-4 season with the NFC championship being hosted in san fran. If you would have told anyone that was going to happen at the beginning of the season people would have laughed at you. Every player on the offense has there flaws, hell every player on the team have there flaws that have cost us points, games. I just don't understand the need to try to point blame at one player for there flaws and totally ignore anothers, or dismiss the fact that another players flaws hurt us just as much.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
You lost me joe, I never said Alex is the "least responsable" for offensive production. I said its the whole offense that's responsable. What annoys me is the people who try to single it out to one players fault. For gods sake its a 14-4 season with the NFC championship being hosted in san fran. If you would have told anyone that was going to happen at the beginning of the season people would have laughed at you. Every player on the offense has there flaws, hell every player on the team have there flaws that have cost us points, games. I just don't understand the need to try to point blame at one player for there flaws and totally ignore anothers, or dismiss the fact that another players flaws hurt us just as much.

I see us being 14-4 from our pathetic 2010 season for us to easily max out with only 10 wins in 2012. If our offense plays in 2012 like it did in 2011, we won't be winning 13 games.

In all purposes, I flame Alex when someone wants to flame our WR talent and that it can't improve but say Alex can improve which makes him better than average. In reality, I want to acquire a player that accentuates Alex's strengths because we KNOW he can throw in between the hashes and the corner routes. I would rather upgrade Delanie because we KNOW it will pay off. We don't know if a deep threat will pay off because Alex has not shown that the sideline deep ball is his strength, mentally and in terms of accuracy. We don't know if he is willing to "throw it up" to a covered player no matter how tall he is. He even threw a flat jump ball to Braylon one game where Braylon ended up turning for the catch too early due to the trajectory of the ball. I am questioning Alex's mentality to throw a lob pass and trust his receiver. When he did, it was inside (due to miscommunication) and was perfect placement for the opponent.

I'm not saying he can't do it. I'm questioning whether he trusts himself to do it.

I think he trusts himself to do it, but like I've said before I'm not sure if he trusts his receivers to catch those types of passes everytime. Most people are saying we need wr talent for multiple reasons. The top one to me anyways is we have no depth worth anything, we lost braylon, swain and hastings are practice squaders, and there is a possibility Morgan or Ginn don't return, it is very apparent we need talent in our WR core. Don't believe me? Think about this. If we end up in the situation we need to fill 3-4 receiver slots are you comfortable filling those absences with draftees and no name receivers as backups to crabtree and kyle or would you like to upgrade some talent it may push crabs to the #2 or even slot but then we can have some depth were comfortable with. In the case we get a TE like fleener in the draft chances are delanie isn't going anywhere he's to adverse of talent to just dispose of, whether you like his size or not.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I think he trusts himself to do it, but like I've said before I'm not sure if he trusts his receivers to catch those types of passes everytime. Most people are saying we need wr talent for multiple reasons. The top one to me anyways is we have no depth worth anything, we lost braylon, swain and hastings are practice squaders, and there is a possibility Morgan or Ginn don't return, it is very apparent we need talent in our WR core. Don't believe me? Think about this. If we end up in the situation we need to fill 3-4 receiver slots are you comfortable filling those absences with draftees and no name receivers as backups to crabtree and kyle or would you like to upgrade some talent it may push crabs to the #2 or even slot but then we can have some depth were comfortable with. In the case we get a TE like fleener in the draft chances are delanie isn't going anywhere he's to adverse of talent to just dispose of, whether you like his size or not.

What we need to do is replace the FA/injured by either resigning them or waiting for them to get healthy. As for talent, Morgan and Crabs have talent. We are not going to get that elite receiver. We may get a 6'4 guy through the draft but even that's highly unlikely at the WR spot and if we do, the guy is not going to produce in 2012 which means Alex will need to trust himself.
I still don't believe the not trusting WR's because he literally stared at open receivers and did not throw it. That's not trusting a receiver, that's not trusting himself.

Ok first and foremost free agents are never a guarenteed sign, 1 other team has already expressed interest in morgan so he is not for sure a niner.

Second do not just rely on 2 receivers to be the talent, because injuries happen. If crabtree injures his foot again now what would we do. There goes our top talent benched for a few games.

And probably most important keep in mind we may need to fill 3-4 receiver spots not just 1 so unless you want to use almost all of our draft picks on receivers we have to pick up someone in free agency. And while there available and other then RG the most important position we need filled we need to get a talented receiver.

On the trust issue, its a combination of both trust in himself and also trust in your team mates. If you watched your receivers drop as many passes that were thrown on the numbers, when their wide open, in stride, way to many occasions then there should have been. And I'm not talking about bad passes either alex threw some great passes that our receivers just flat out dropped, don't you think your trust in the receivers would be a little tattered? They dropped a lot of passes, a couple times stopped running halfway through plays, and a few times just let the secondary engulf them without a fight. I don't know about you but I loose trust in my drivers if I even hear them grind the gears because there professionals and should know better then making such simple mistakes. But who knows maybe alex is like a mentally challenged individual on the field and stares to long into space.

I am in partial agreement on the trust issue. The reason I say "partial" is because I am quite certain that Harbaugh realized from the beginning that the defense would be exceptional but the offense would be sketchy. (The STs were a bit of a surprise even though hopes were high due to Seely's rep.) However one defines "sketchy" is pretty much an individual perspective because JH will never discuss it. My take is that he felt that if the offense could just avoid killer mistakes they could have a somewhat better than .500 season. Harbaugh said he felt Alex Smith would be a winner from the start but the fact they went after Plax and then Edwards clearly showed he did not have the same confidence in the WRs as he did the QB.

So, from the start he was not going to put the offense in a "must win" situation with so many new things in place. The result, play calls were very safe. Looking back they were probably unnecessarily safe but that is hindsight.

Now we come to the chicken/egg part where no one knows whether the trust issue was that Smith didn't trust the WRs or JH didn't trust Smith, and we will never know. The closest we will get to an answer is what we will see in September. I am not worried about bringing in new receivers and the time frame to learn the system. Given how much the team learned in such a short period of time last summer, I am fully confident that Harbaugh will have whoever it is, be it rookies or FAs, up to a reasonable speed to be productive by game one.

Oh, I know Harbaugh has said it takes 2 or 3 years to fully learn the system but that is just smoke to prevent overly optimistic expectations. He and his staff proved this season that it doesn't take all that long to become effective. Given a couple of WRs and RG, I am confident Smith will turn it loose just as he did in those numerous key situations where he had to make a throw and he did. The Championship game does not bother me all that much due to the fact we had practice squad WRs on the field other than MC. The fact is, we saw Harbaugh and Smith go farther than anyone dreamed from last season to now. I expect to see a much more diversified and confident offense next fall than we have seen since the days of Young, Rice and Friends.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by walker807:
Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

If Braylon Edwards would have worked out at a level similar to his role with the Jets, he, along with a healthy Joshua Morgan would have had a huge impact on the offense.

Yes and we will probably get Morgan back. Still don't want to spend 7 mil for a FA unless they are going to be good for 100 catches which isn't likely in this offense which means we can draft one instead.

Would rather have Fleener. Crabs and Morgan are good for 60-80 catches but Delanie is not good for 400-600 yards and redzone threat. Fleener would give us that.

Wallace is the only FA that I would spend money on. Other than that, Fleener with one of the speedy smurfs like Joe Adams would suit me just fine.

I am a big Jimmy Graham fan, also influenced by what Gronkowski did. Both of those guys changed the dynamic of their team in less than two years. Brees and Brady would often just toss up it up and they would make the catch easily over the smaller DB. Graham, in particular, with his BB skills is declared "open" just lining up at the LOS. I see Fleener doing the same thing. Along with Vernon Davis, the combination of size and speed would be fun to watch.

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to pay for V. Jackson who at least wouldn't cost you a first and would likely be cheaper.

Originally posted by dj43:
I am in partial agreement on the trust issue. The reason I say "partial" is because I am quite certain that Harbaugh realized from the beginning that the defense would be exceptional but the offense would be sketchy. (The STs were a bit of a surprise even though hopes were high due to Seely's rep.) However one defines "sketchy" is pretty much an individual perspective because JH will never discuss it. My take is that he felt that if the offense could just avoid killer mistakes they could have a somewhat better than .500 season. Harbaugh said he felt Alex Smith would be a winner from the start but the fact they went after Plax and then Edwards clearly showed he did not have the same confidence in the WRs as he did the QB.

So, from the start he was not going to put the offense in a "must win" situation with so many new things in place. The result, play calls were very safe. Looking back they were probably unnecessarily safe but that is hindsight.

Now we come to the chicken/egg part where no one knows whether the trust issue was that Smith didn't trust the WRs or JH didn't trust Smith, and we will never know. The closest we will get to an answer is what we will see in September. I am not worried about bringing in new receivers and the time frame to learn the system. Given how much the team learned in such a short period of time last summer, I am fully confident that Harbaugh will have whoever it is, be it rookies or FAs, up to a reasonable speed to be productive by game one.

Oh, I know Harbaugh has said it takes 2 or 3 years to fully learn the system but that is just smoke to prevent overly optimistic expectations. He and his staff proved this season that it doesn't take all that long to become effective. Given a couple of WRs and RG, I am confident Smith will turn it loose just as he did in those numerous key situations where he had to make a throw and he did. The Championship game does not bother me all that much due to the fact we had practice squad WRs on the field other than MC. The fact is, we saw Harbaugh and Smith go farther than anyone dreamed from last season to now. I expect to see a much more diversified and confident offense next fall than we have seen since the days of Young, Rice and Friends.

The drill Harbaugh had the QB's do with the mattress says it all. They need to learn to throw to a location before they see a receiver. He wouldn't have done that drill if it was the WR's not getting their. You only do that drill to teach your QB to trust the play.

Every elite offense last year had at least two wide receivers who were more productive than any wide receiver on the Niners. And, every elite offense was also a cohesive system which had been running for at least two or three seasons if not more. Next season, the Niners will have at least one good speed burner on the outside to go with V. Davis on the inside. They'll have a complete off-season. They'll have a QB who finally has gotten to stay with the same QB-friendly system for two seasons in a row. Remember, towards the end of the season, Smith started throwing guys open. You've got to be comfortable with the system to do that. And, JoeCool is absolutely right - you've got to have been working with your receivers in that system long enough to trust that they will be where you throw the ball. I think we're going to see a big jump in offense next season.

Originally posted by walker807:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by walker807:
Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

If Braylon Edwards would have worked out at a level similar to his role with the Jets, he, along with a healthy Joshua Morgan would have had a huge impact on the offense.

Yes and we will probably get Morgan back. Still don't want to spend 7 mil for a FA unless they are going to be good for 100 catches which isn't likely in this offense which means we can draft one instead.

Would rather have Fleener. Crabs and Morgan are good for 60-80 catches but Delanie is not good for 400-600 yards and redzone threat. Fleener would give us that.

Wallace is the only FA that I would spend money on. Other than that, Fleener with one of the speedy smurfs like Joe Adams would suit me just fine.

I am a big Jimmy Graham fan, also influenced by what Gronkowski did. Both of those guys changed the dynamic of their team in less than two years. Brees and Brady would often just toss up it up and they would make the catch easily over the smaller DB. Graham, in particular, with his BB skills is declared "open" just lining up at the LOS. I see Fleener doing the same thing. Along with Vernon Davis, the combination of size and speed would be fun to watch.

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to pay for V. Jackson who at least wouldn't cost you a first and would likely be cheaper.

I like VJ a lot. I am concerned about his history of less than enthusiastic work ethic and general grumbling. When he plays, he plays very well. He will likely cost about the same as Wallace, perhaps a bit less.

Wallace is a unique talent. He has tremendous athleticism plus elite speed. That combination is nearly unstoppable.

I really don't think Wallace will land here. His value will get bid up to the point it would disturb the roster balance here. This team has a lot of very good players who will want to get paid in the future. In order to keep them when their contracts are up, the decisions made this year must be prudent.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
I am in partial agreement on the trust issue. The reason I say "partial" is because I am quite certain that Harbaugh realized from the beginning that the defense would be exceptional but the offense would be sketchy. (The STs were a bit of a surprise even though hopes were high due to Seely's rep.) However one defines "sketchy" is pretty much an individual perspective because JH will never discuss it. My take is that he felt that if the offense could just avoid killer mistakes they could have a somewhat better than .500 season. Harbaugh said he felt Alex Smith would be a winner from the start but the fact they went after Plax and then Edwards clearly showed he did not have the same confidence in the WRs as he did the QB.

So, from the start he was not going to put the offense in a "must win" situation with so many new things in place. The result, play calls were very safe. Looking back they were probably unnecessarily safe but that is hindsight.

Now we come to the chicken/egg part where no one knows whether the trust issue was that Smith didn't trust the WRs or JH didn't trust Smith, and we will never know. The closest we will get to an answer is what we will see in September. I am not worried about bringing in new receivers and the time frame to learn the system. Given how much the team learned in such a short period of time last summer, I am fully confident that Harbaugh will have whoever it is, be it rookies or FAs, up to a reasonable speed to be productive by game one.

Oh, I know Harbaugh has said it takes 2 or 3 years to fully learn the system but that is just smoke to prevent overly optimistic expectations. He and his staff proved this season that it doesn't take all that long to become effective. Given a couple of WRs and RG, I am confident Smith will turn it loose just as he did in those numerous key situations where he had to make a throw and he did. The Championship game does not bother me all that much due to the fact we had practice squad WRs on the field other than MC. The fact is, we saw Harbaugh and Smith go farther than anyone dreamed from last season to now. I expect to see a much more diversified and confident offense next fall than we have seen since the days of Young, Rice and Friends.

The drill Harbaugh had the QB's do with the mattress says it all. They need to learn to throw to a location before they see a receiver. He wouldn't have done that drill if it was the WR's not getting their. You only do that drill to teach your QB to trust the play.

I don't put much stock in the fact that they did that drill. All teams do something like that. It is a fundamental refresher/trainer. I'm not suggesting Harbaugh did not have a specific reason to do it. In fact it would have been important for the young guys to do it, and Smith would have joined it.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by walker807:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by walker807:
Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

If Braylon Edwards would have worked out at a level similar to his role with the Jets, he, along with a healthy Joshua Morgan would have had a huge impact on the offense.

Yes and we will probably get Morgan back. Still don't want to spend 7 mil for a FA unless they are going to be good for 100 catches which isn't likely in this offense which means we can draft one instead.

Would rather have Fleener. Crabs and Morgan are good for 60-80 catches but Delanie is not good for 400-600 yards and redzone threat. Fleener would give us that.

Wallace is the only FA that I would spend money on. Other than that, Fleener with one of the speedy smurfs like Joe Adams would suit me just fine.

I am a big Jimmy Graham fan, also influenced by what Gronkowski did. Both of those guys changed the dynamic of their team in less than two years. Brees and Brady would often just toss up it up and they would make the catch easily over the smaller DB. Graham, in particular, with his BB skills is declared "open" just lining up at the LOS. I see Fleener doing the same thing. Along with Vernon Davis, the combination of size and speed would be fun to watch.

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to pay for V. Jackson who at least wouldn't cost you a first and would likely be cheaper.

I like VJ a lot. I am concerned about his history of less than enthusiastic work ethic and general grumbling. When he plays, he plays very well. He will likely cost about the same as Wallace, perhaps a bit less.

Wallace is a unique talent. He has tremendous athleticism plus elite speed. That combination is nearly unstoppable.

I really don't think Wallace will land here. His value will get bid up to the point it would disturb the roster balance here. This team has a lot of very good players who will want to get paid in the future. In order to keep them when their contracts are up, the decisions made this year must be prudent.

I actually would not be supprised to see the niners make a hard run at Wallace. He would compliment Crabs and Vernon very well. Pitt can not afford to match a frontloaded deal because of there cap problems which is exactly what the niners know and will use too there advantage. I think the Brooks deal signals this possibility with it being under 3 million cap hit for next season. Losing the first hurst a lot less when it is the 30th pick. I would take Mike Wallace and a cheaper vetern corner over Rogers if it comes to it.