There are 58 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Week 15: Thoughts after re.....ok only watched it once because I was AT the game. ;-)

I love reading Marvin's take on the games.

I will add:

Alex---played well--needs to be more accurate on the long passes--not always right on the edge of the sidelines--but hey 0 TO's vs Bens 4 TO's
I love Kyle Williams--he is a great athlete---the best YAC guy we have
Crabtree and Williams should be solid together---we need Ginn/Edwards/swain someone to be that 3rd guy--till we draft another next season. ( and get Morgan back)
Vernon made some great catches on that one drive--my wish for him is that he can also take short passes and just bulldoze defenders consistently for 8-12 yard gains.
Delanie Walker---I am still not a fan---some good blocks--he tries hard--but isn't a game changer.
Gore can't catch anymore---I'd like to find a way to see Miller more in the passing game---I think he could be sort of like Montana to Rathman.
Gore may be hurting some--but he still runs hard--a bye week would be great for him--he could be rejuvenated in the playoffs.

I loved the screen pass to Hunter--he is the perfect back to run that play.

Our special teams are the best i have ever seen them--better than even the Super Bowl years.
Our defense is great--speed/strength/hits/tackling--and Willis will be back and rested. eventually.

Seattle is a huge test---physical/ emotional/mental---win this and anything is possible--- a loss would be maybe a sign the team isn't totally ready yet.
All the talk about alex is or alex isn't , here's what i got out of the game. I stopwatched the first 5 or 6 throws, and all came out in under 2 seconds of snapping the ball. Surprise, surprise, guess what? All were complete and put Pitts back on their heels. Then Coach H went for a 3.5 second pass and alex got hurried. Also soon after, Frank dropped a pair of passes, something he is doing more and more, as well as other guys...no need to name names. But the fascinating thing about this game was that Coach H finally started calling quick slants, outs, and most of them clicked. Also watched slow mo and alex is missing on sideline passes on purpose, usually when guy he is throwing to is covered. Had he thrown 4 individual passes to intended receiver , they all would have been INTs. Instead he threw high twice out of bounds, and threw at least 2 maybe 3 into the ground on down the middle passes. No question Coach Harbaugh watched AZ, Balt, Texans and Saints games again, and came away with the obvious conclusion. Anything more than 2 second passes, snap it and sling it passes, alex gets a huge rush...the BIG RUSH , if you will.

True there were some longer completions, one to Vernon especially that were longer developing plays, for example the rollout right with a throw back across field to Vernon again. Some of those were partly protected by rolling out, some by dodging the blitz, but no question, Coach is fully aware that passes that take more than 2 seconds, as in 1-2 steppers, and WRs have to be looking once they leave LOS, are going to be completed. More than 2 seconds, and OL just doesn't block well enough for long enough to protect their qB. I had been advocating for this for last 10 weeks when it became apparent, OL couldn't hold a block more than 2 seconds. Hence snap it and sling it, which takes 2.0 to 2.3 seconds in most cases... and in looking at tape again, virtually most of those were completions.

My take from the game? Coach has accepted OL cannot block longer than 2 seconds, so that is the kind of passes we need to be successful. Also he dragged out the 1 yd pass play on 1st down and goal and receiver was open by 10 yrds. I believe roman has been calling plays, and Coach nods his assent. Last nite, i think Coach H called his own plays. On D, i think the same in that many times we rushed 5 guys, or 6 counting ALL DONE as 2 rushers. My gosh that kid is unbelievable. Best of his 3.5 sacks(one called back due to penalty elsewhere), was where he bullrushed the OT, who got knocked flat, then darted around the RB blocker for the clean sack. Strength, raw power, and blitzkrieg speed. What a package he is. Also, by my count he played a lot of plays. How many times he hit Rotburger, i lost count. But it was often and it was painful. One helluva nite for those that thot we "played okay". We looked fan-frigging-tastic. Look at the tape a few more times, and it will grow on you. This was the 10-3 Steelers, guys. Give the Coach and team some well deserved credit...they earned it.
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Question: Do you also personally attend the 31 other teams' games? Seems to me that if your premise is that one can only fully see a QB's failings or successes by being in the stadium, you'd have to in order to make an apples to apples comparison between them.

In other words, either (a) Smith misses far more open WRs than other QBs, as evidenced by an analysis of all of the data (viewed in person) or (b) you don't have the same pool of data available to you to compare Smith's performance to every other QBs.


There is another quarterback on the field at our home games. You don't have to travel around the country to make a rational comparison.

Sample size of 8 smith games and 8 games (1 each) of other QBs? Out of 512 total games?

Yes but this is what guys who watch coachs film also say about Alex.

Yeah "getting the ball out quicker" is another of saying you have wide open guys and you need to hit them.

From what we have seen of Alex, I'm sure guys like Cossel aren't just making things up on their hate for Alex Smith.

You two have just snowballed a concept. Are you taking the position that "Smith misses far more open WRs than other QBs, as evidenced by an analysis of all of the data"? And, if so, that that equals needing to get the ball out quicker? And that that is true because Cossel says so and he, presumably, has reviewed all the data?

To me, this is all another example of selective data used to support a pre- determined outcome.

Its been said many times by experts Smith needs to get the ball out quicker. It doesn't get much more simple then that. I think its pretty apparent when you watch the games. He hesitates at times.
Originally posted by Marvin49:


2) Alex Smith: I've supported Alex ALOT over the years, but I have to confess to a few four letter words last night. Those overthrows on the sideline are maddening. I'm not slamming him. He's playing well, but they could really be SOOOO much better if he could just hit some wide open recievers.

This has bugged me the most about Alex. What is it about those deep sideline throws? And he doesn't even overthrow IN FRONT of the receiver. The ball sails about 5 yards out of bounds. I just don't get it. And you're right, imagine how much more deadly this offense could be if he could just hit those throws consistently. I wouldnt even care about the redzone issues...
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Its been said many times by experts Smith needs to get the ball out quicker. It doesn't get much more simple then that. I think its pretty apparent when you watch the games. He hesitates at times.

I don't dispute that is among his flaws. That was not the initial point. That point was (paraphrased): I watch Smith in person and, based on that, claim that Smith (unlike all other QBs) consistently misses open wide receivers. I dispute that conclusion because it appears to be based on limited data and bias, rather than an objective analysis of all the data.
  • kdogg
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 48
Yes, downfield receivers are open many times during games (for all NFL QBs). I think everyone forgets to look at the pocket protection when those receivers are GETTING open. Does everyone realize how much more time, effort, and windup it takes to throw the ball 40 yards downfield? There are risks involved when checking down to RB than chucking downfield to WR (see 2010 Eagles game).

Grant did a decent job. I thought Bowman missed a lot of tackles. I guess we're all spoiled when all these missed tackles still only lead to 84 yards rushing.
Originally posted by kdogg:
Yes, downfield receivers are open many times during games (for all NFL QBs). I think everyone forgets to look at the pocket protection when those receivers are GETTING open. Does everyone realize how much more time, effort, and windup it takes to throw the ball 40 yards downfield? There are risks involved when checking down to RB than chucking downfield to WR (see 2010 Eagles game).

Grant did a decent job. I thought Bowman missed a lot of tackles. I guess we're all spoiled when all these missed tackles still only lead to 84 yards rushing.

yuo thats what i tried to say earlier about downfield passes

i was a CB in HS and i got a lot of picks reason was when reciever was downfield i let qb think he was open by giving him space then as soon as the windup came i closed in on him
Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
I love reading Marvin's take on the games.

I will add:

Alex---played well--needs to be more accurate on the long passes--not always right on the edge of the sidelines--but hey 0 TO's vs Bens 4 TO's
I love Kyle Williams--he is a great athlete---the best YAC guy we have
Crabtree and Williams should be solid together---we need Ginn/Edwards/swain someone to be that 3rd guy--till we draft another next season. ( and get Morgan back)
Vernon made some great catches on that one drive--my wish for him is that he can also take short passes and just bulldoze defenders consistently for 8-12 yard gains.
Delanie Walker---I am still not a fan---some good blocks--he tries hard--but isn't a game changer.
Gore can't catch anymore---I'd like to find a way to see Miller more in the passing game---I think he could be sort of like Montana to Rathman.
Gore may be hurting some--but he still runs hard--a bye week would be great for him--he could be rejuvenated in the playoffs.

I loved the screen pass to Hunter--he is the perfect back to run that play.

Our special teams are the best i have ever seen them--better than even the Super Bowl years.
Our defense is great--speed/strength/hits/tackling--and Willis will be back and rested. eventually.

Seattle is a huge test---physical/ emotional/mental---win this and anything is possible--- a loss would be maybe a sign the team isn't totally ready yet.

Glad to see the special teams. 49ers pinned them back EVERY time, and never gave them a short field to work from. Even when he had to kick from their own 10 or so. The steelers penalty also pushed them back on that play, so that helped too lol Did they ever start beyond the 20?
[ Edited by JimA49ers on Dec 21, 2011 at 8:03 AM ]
Originally posted by mickey49:
Originally posted by Marvin49:


2) Alex Smith: I've supported Alex ALOT over the years, but I have to confess to a few four letter words last night. Those overthrows on the sideline are maddening. I'm not slamming him. He's playing well, but they could really be SOOOO much better if he could just hit some wide open recievers.

This has bugged me the most about Alex. What is it about those deep sideline throws? And he doesn't even overthrow IN FRONT of the receiver. The ball sails about 5 yards out of bounds. I just don't get it. And you're right, imagine how much more deadly this offense could be if he could just hit those throws consistently. I wouldnt even care about the redzone issues...

I finally watched the game last night. It seems the only sideline passes he missed were the Crabtree stutter and go on the sidelines and a wheel route by someone. The incompletion to Kyle Williams in the endzone on the first drive was Kyle's fault. He should have stopped his route in the gap - the only place Smith could throw the ball. It also seems that most of the deep passes he misses are 2nd or 3rd reads. It's something he needs to work on. But he seems to be on target to primary receivers.
Originally posted by father49er:
Originally posted by mickey49:
Originally posted by Marvin49:


2) Alex Smith: I've supported Alex ALOT over the years, but I have to confess to a few four letter words last night. Those overthrows on the sideline are maddening. I'm not slamming him. He's playing well, but they could really be SOOOO much better if he could just hit some wide open recievers.

This has bugged me the most about Alex. What is it about those deep sideline throws? And he doesn't even overthrow IN FRONT of the receiver. The ball sails about 5 yards out of bounds. I just don't get it. And you're right, imagine how much more deadly this offense could be if he could just hit those throws consistently. I wouldnt even care about the redzone issues...

I finally watched the game last night. It seems the only sideline passes he missed were the Crabtree stutter and go on the sidelines and a wheel route by someone. The incompletion to Kyle Williams in the endzone on the first drive was Kyle's fault. He should have stopped his route in the gap - the only place Smith could throw the ball. It also seems that most of the deep passes he misses are 2nd or 3rd reads. It's something he needs to work on. But he seems to be on target to primary receivers.

Agree about the Kyle Williams pass. See a lot of people talk about that like it's Smith's fault and it isn't. I think the main reason for a lot of people is because tempers and emotions run thick while watching the game live and you become quick to judge the play without knowing every aspect you can. That's why I made the stickied video thread at the top of the board (which i'm honestly not sure a lot of people see, since most people don't look at the stickied section often), so that people can watch the plays again without that emotion, and review it more precisely.

Right where Alex put the ball is the only place he could have. Any other place had a defender, especially right where Williams was running to. He should have sat in that spot and it would have been a sure touchdown. I blame it on Williams, BUT it happens. Williams hasn't been in situations like that before and has very limited game time. Those plays will come as he progresses as a receiver.
I've rewatched the MNF game. Smith played a very good game. Everyone including myself thought he had bad first half but after a re-watched, he made a lot of good on the money throws to Ginn, Crabtree, VD. including short and medium passes. There were only a handful of throws that was disappointing because it could have been big plays. The 2 same type deep sideline throws to Walker and Crabtree that was over thrown. The one to the flat to Gore with Troy on him. The miscommunicated throw to Williams in the end zone.

Like I've said before Smith is playing pretty good for the most part. There are about 3-5 passes per game that he misses that we wish he would make. If he does this the offense will be lights out.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
I've rewatched the MNF game. Smith played a very good game. Everyone including myself thought he had bad first half but after a re-watched, he made a lot of good on the money throws to Ginn, Crabtree, VD. including short and medium passes. There were only a handful of throws that was disappointing because it could have been big plays. The 2 same type deep sideline throws to Walker and Crabtree that was over thrown. The one to the flat to Gore with Troy on him. The miscommunicated throw to Williams in the end zone.

Like I've said before Smith is playing pretty good for the most part. There are about 3-5 passes per game that he misses that we wish he would make. If he does this the offense will be lights out.

The thing that surprised me the most is how I came away in the first half feeling disappointed in Alex and the offense... But we were pretty easily moving the ball. That is something to be very excited about for an offense in the first year of it's installment. We're playing GOOD on offense, great at times, we just have to fix the redzone problems and we're there. The Pittsburgh defense is nothing to joke about and the offense was making it look easy at times. I think once Alex and the WRs have a proper offseason to get timing down more and get a better feel for each other, the o-line has more time to learn the blocking assignments and get used to pointing defenders out to each other and we add a playmaker through the draft, watch the f**k out.
Originally posted by VaNiner540:
Originally posted by horsecore:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:

The guy that drove me crazy last night was Haralson. The guy has a really hard time making plays in the open field. His misses cost the Niners several times during the game.

This. Haralson whiffed on some key tackles last night.
This and Ahmad Brooks pass coverage was awful...Rottenburger made him look silly on more than 2 occasions. Anyone think Grant would be an upgrade over either of these guys? I realize that Grant plays MLB but i thought he covered Heath very well during the 2nd half, and from what I've seen his pass rush is pretty decent. The biggest thing that worries me about him is his speed/acceleration....he has potential to be good, but also potential to eat dust. Thoughts?

I wouldn't be surprised if Grant replaces Haralson at some point......... Not a chance on Brooks........
[ Edited by kemp_j on Dec 21, 2011 at 10:15 AM ]
  • fryet
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,838
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Its been said many times by experts Smith needs to get the ball out quicker. It doesn't get much more simple then that. I think its pretty apparent when you watch the games. He hesitates at times.

I don't dispute that is among his flaws. That was not the initial point. That point was (paraphrased): I watch Smith in person and, based on that, claim that Smith (unlike all other QBs) consistently misses open wide receivers. I dispute that conclusion because it appears to be based on limited data and bias, rather than an objective analysis of all the data.

I don't think this is a fair counter-argument. If the requirement is that you must watch all games for all QB (in person!) to make a statement about Alex Smith's play, then you have effectively prevented everyone except apparently Cosell (and even he can't watch all games in person) from making comments. The bar really isn't that high. If you disagree with the person's analysis/conclusions, provide your own in rebuttal. Don't tell them that they can't speak until they achieve your artificial bar.
Originally posted by fryet:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Its been said many times by experts Smith needs to get the ball out quicker. It doesn't get much more simple then that. I think its pretty apparent when you watch the games. He hesitates at times.

I don't dispute that is among his flaws. That was not the initial point. That point was (paraphrased): I watch Smith in person and, based on that, claim that Smith (unlike all other QBs) consistently misses open wide receivers. I dispute that conclusion because it appears to be based on limited data and bias, rather than an objective analysis of all the data.

I don't think this is a fair counter-argument. If the requirement is that you must watch all games for all QB (in person!) to make a statement about Alex Smith's play, then you have effectively prevented everyone except apparently Cosell (and even he can't watch all games in person) from making comments. The bar really isn't that high. If you disagree with the person's analysis/conclusions, provide your own in rebuttal. Don't tell them that they can't speak until they achieve your artificial bar.
It is not a requirement. But IF the claim is that Smith -UNLIKE ALL OTHER QBS - consistently misses wide-open WRs, then shouldn't one have viewed all those other quarterbacks, too? Otherwise, it is just conjecture premised on predisposition.

A more reasonable position to me is: Smith misses open receivers. Other QBs miss open receivers. I've watched every snap of Smith's play this year and see this consistent problem. I have not watched every other QB's snaps (nor do I have a vested interest in doing so), but it seems to me that Smith is far worse in this regard than other QB's are.

I will not accept someone's opinion as gospel truth, particularly when it is not backed up by data or facts.