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Aldon Smith vs Oher

Originally posted by Baugh_Area:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Baugh_Area:
You're a great guy Maddog, really. You're really smart. You're a great poster. You deserve to be a GM in the NFL. If I could pull some strings and get Jed York to read your posts he would be enlightened immediately, fire Trent Baalke, hire you to the job of your destiny and cruise to superbowls for a century! I just wanted to let you know how brilliant you are and no matter what anybody says, you were right about JJ Watt and Aldon Smith. We were wrong for calling you out. 7.5 sacks in mop-up time is nothing. Smith is a failure and should be booed by the fans.

Did I miss any compliments? Is your ego saved yet? Can you move on from your crusade to muddy Aldon Smith's name? Please, it's embarrassing and annoying.

Thank you for the compliments.

As for Aldon Smith, I am just temporing the Aldon Smith is the greatest player in NFL history, but is still a backup. People need to live in reality that he is simply a one-trick pony at this point, and in some games, he is completely absent. Is he bad? No. Is he good? As a backup, he's been very good. But, to put him up on some pedestal as some guy who is making this gigantic impact on this team and the league is a joke. HE IS A BACKUP!!!!! People project future star potential as if it is happening on the field.

How many times do we have to hear: "If the QB only held the ball for 5 more seconds, Aldon would have sacked him", or "Smith is great because he ran over, or around a player" or "Can Smith be a 20+ sack guy?"

He's not great, and until some fans realize that he has tremendous potential, but is not producing at a rate that should warrant star status, then we can live in a state of reality.

I don't want to live in your reality Maddog. Honestly, your denial and shifting of the facts strikes of a drug addict feverishly attempting to justify everything he says or does. You can spin the facts any way you want Maddog, but you're only kidding yourself at this point.

No one here is stating Aldon Smith is the greatest player ever. Some, myself included, feel he's the best pass rusher we've had in a decade and IMO that's pretty damn hard to argue right now. He has produced very well and is a huge bright spot at this point. It's not just webzoners who are excited about him either...all across the league people are heaping praise on this kid. You can refuse to accept that if you will....or you can just keep chilling in "reality".
I honestly don't think any praise is truly due until Smith either sees double teams or makes a Von Miller / Clay Matthews impact. At best Aldon is an Ahmad Brooks, someone who comes off the bench and gets sacks (as he did playing for Manny Lawson); how is Ahmad doing now? Brooks certainly didn't translate his potential into a dominate season this year, although he's pretty solid. Our best pass rusher is Justin Smith, who gets most of the attention.

Makes me wonder if Aldon will pull a Suh when he starts to see double-teams and fails to dominate
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I honestly don't think any praise is truly due until Smith either sees double teams or makes a Von Miller / Clay Matthews impact. At best Aldon is an Ahmad Brooks, someone who comes off the bench and gets sacks (as he did playing for Manny Lawson); how is Ahmad doing now? Brooks certainly didn't translate his potential into a dominate season this year, although he's pretty solid. Our best pass rusher is Justin Smith, who gets most of the attention.

Makes me wonder if Aldon will pull a Suh when he starts to see double-teams and fails to dominate


Really disagree with you here. Smith is an incredibly powerful rusher who often disrupts plays, running as well as passing. He often seems to be a man among boys, tossing three hundred pound linemen out of his way. I did not like the draft choice but am very impressed and surprised by his play. He also doesn't appear to have a mental health issue as does Suh.
The kid is good right now but has a lot more to do to be an impact starter.

I wouldn't trade him for Watt...Von might be tempting but arguing about guys who we never had a shot at drafting is dumb.

I like Aldon and look forward to him ejecting Parys off of the team.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I'm not understanding this "potential" argument...Aldon Smith has already shown he is good. He is dominating linemen at times off the edge and up the middle. His speed and quickness and stregnth is amazing. Not sure what more you want out of a 7th round pick? If he was playing on a crappier defense, he would be starting and one of the best players on the team. He happens to be behind a veteran group who has been solid the last few years.

Obviously, he's good, we're past the point of whether he's good now. It's just a matter of how good? .. he's got a great inside move with awesome use of his hands and size/strength, but I haven't seen him bully guys like I've seen DeMarcus Ware or James Harrison just dominate and make offensive linemen look stupid on a consistent basis. Von Miller is looking like he's coming into that echelon, but obviously you gotta see more play time before you elevate a guy like that.

I think Aldon will be a real nice player, hopefully a consistent double digit sack guy, but not all double digit sack guys are not all created alike. I don't think you can project him to be one of the best players on a crappy defense... he really hasn't played enough snaps and made enough of an impact in those snaps to justify it. Yes, he has some sacks, but I thought a lot of them were coverage sacks. He did abuse that OT @DET to force the safety, which was an awesome play, and many other pressures, but other sacks occured in pursuit after the QB had gone through his reads. It shows hustle and a great motor to finish the play, but it doesn't necessarily dictate that he'll be a special player.

EDIT: actually no way i take Watt over Smith. I really do like Smith
[ Edited by dhp318 on Nov 29, 2011 at 9:54 PM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Thank you for the compliments.

As for Aldon Smith, I am just temporing the Aldon Smith is the greatest player in NFL history, but is still a backup. People need to live in reality that he is simply a one-trick pony at this point, and in some games, he is completely absent. Is he bad? No. Is he good? As a backup, he's been very good. But, to put him up on some pedestal as some guy who is making this gigantic impact on this team and the league is a joke. HE IS A BACKUP!!!!! People project future star potential as if it is happening on the field.

How many times do we have to hear: "If the QB only held the ball for 5 more seconds, Aldon would have sacked him", or "Smith is great because he ran over, or around a player" or "Can Smith be a 20+ sack guy?"

He's not great, and until some fans realize that he has tremendous potential, but is not producing at a rate that should warrant star status, then we can live in a state of reality.

He's a "backup"? Interesting. You mean like David Baas?

Just curious. Who is he backing up?
It's a good thing Von Miller is doing so well, because if he wasn't then Aldon Smith would win DROY and would completely overshadow what a disappointment he really is as a football player. Sure, he might have more sacks than Dwight Freeney, James Harrison and Brian Orakpo, and half a sack less than Peppers, but he's only a backup, which is totally unacceptable, he should be ashamed of himself.
Baldin Smith
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I honestly don't think any praise is truly due until Smith either sees double teams or makes a Von Miller / Clay Matthews impact. At best Aldon is an Ahmad Brooks, someone who comes off the bench and gets sacks (as he did playing for Manny Lawson); how is Ahmad doing now? Brooks certainly didn't translate his potential into a dominate season this year, although he's pretty solid. Our best pass rusher is Justin Smith, who gets most of the attention.

Makes me wonder if Aldon will pull a Suh when he starts to see double-teams and fails to dominate


Really disagree with you here. Smith is an incredibly powerful rusher who often disrupts plays, running as well as passing. He often seems to be a man among boys, tossing three hundred pound linemen out of his way. I did not like the draft choice but am very impressed and surprised by his play. He also doesn't appear to have a mental health issue as does Suh.

He was the 7th overall pick; if he couldn't do all of that and a handstand, I'd be displeased :P

Have you seen Von Miller play? The game has been largely responsible for the Tebow run since playing San Diego, and even before then he was a beast. When you have a player who is a large reason of why a team wins, that's when you praise a guy. Right now Aldon is just a role player; you could give the same sort of praise to a guy like Donte Whiter or Parys Haralson; they're doing their jobs. Guys like Justin Smith, Patrick Willis, and NaVarro Bowman are why we're winning games. Their has been a lot of praise for Aldon, even from our offensive line that goes against him in practice, people like Staley and others. But the fact remains that Aldon is not an every down player, can't be said to be someone who is accounted for every play, and there are other rookies who have made a bigger impact. Is he the best young pass-rusher we've had since Andre Carter? Yes. Does that mean he belongs in the same breath as Von Miller? No.

I was joking about Suh and Smith. But the point is that Smith is able to do a lot because we've got players like Justin Smith and others who absorb attention, and GREAT players are not only warranting such a challenge but overcome them.

I'll give you a good analogy. We all knew how good Michael Turner was with the Chargers in his limited time, but no one knew if he'd be able to hold up a full season's worth of work. Did we praise him for being an excellent back-up? Absolutely. But did we praise him for being a premiere starter in the league? Not at all. Nor did anyone do the same with Chester Taylor before he got his shot to be a starter. Maddog's point is that we should praise him for being what he is, a back-up. I bet the only people who heaped an abundance of praise on Michael Turner were Chargers fans, because any unbiased fan wouldn't go gooey-eyed over a back-up unless their team was so atrocious that the back-up would be better than their starters. As it is, our OLBs are solid but not awe-inspiring, and casual 49er fans as well as die-hards want Aldon so bad to be the next Charles Haley, just as much as we wanted Cody Pickett to be the next Montana, and that corner (can't forget his name) who shut down Marvin Harrison some years back (picked off from the street) to be the next Deon. We've sucked so much, anything better than what we used to have must be exceptional.
[ Edited by Eskendale on Nov 30, 2011 at 12:11 AM ]
Originally posted by KowboyKiller:
It's a good thing Von Miller is doing so well, because if he wasn't then Aldon Smith would win DROY and would completely overshadow what a disappointment he really is as a football player. Sure, he might have more sacks than Dwight Freeney, James Harrison and Brian Orakpo, and half a sack less than Peppers, but he's only a backup, which is totally unacceptable, he should be ashamed of himself.

Let's please not use this argument; it would do a disservice to all the 49er fans who defended Justin Smith as a pro-bowl caliber pass-rusher despite his low sack-numbers, their argument being that quarterback pressures are a more valid barometer of how good a player is.

Why quarterback pressures? Because even if Aldon doesn't get there, he forces an incompletion or a bad play through constant harrassment. Aldon has not been this kind of menace yet. I'd take a guy who has no sacks for the year who is consistently beating his man and is around the quarterback on every play versus numbers. It's the same sort of fallacy that applies to the Ravens game. The Ravens D wasn't good because they got 9 sacks, it was good because almost every play there was potential for a sack, and a lot more would have occurred if Alex hadn't wrung himself free.

Oh yeah, let's not forget that some of the players you mentioned are getting double-teamed, because they're proven commodities.
Does no one remember the season that we had under Nolan where we nearly led the league in sacks, but no one in their right mind would have said we had a good pass-rush?

People keep saying Aldon is this that and the other but he has yet to solve our pass-rushing problem. Quarterbacks like Eli and Flacco have had all day to throw during passing downs, and I don't care how many sacks Aldon gets if this problem is not solved!

Any time I watch Aldon play I think he's invincible and he'll get a sack. Why? Because I'm a homer! Put David Akers in at DE or OLB, and I'll yell at the TV: "GO DAVID! GET HIS ASS!" Like most fans, I'm a blind homer when it comes to winning and performance. I'm willing to forget Alex Smith wasted 6 years of my life because he's winning now .
[ Edited by Eskendale on Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36 AM ]
He is still young and developing. He always had the strength. What he does is dictated on what they want him to do. His stats are limited because of his play. When he gets more playing time he will need to develope more stamina. He'll be fine.
Again becareful about saying that Miller is so much better than Smith as a pass rusher. Millers game is based on speed which after 2 years will likely change as wear and tear take it's toll. Smith projects as the better player over a longer period based on his strength aspect. Ware proved that speed AND power makes a player great. Is Miller a better all around linebacker, yep. But he is not a better pass rusher. Watch teams on Sunday. Teams are very aware of Smith. They do double team him. The argument that Smith needs more playing time is valid.
Originally posted by Eskendale:
He was the 7th overall pick; if he couldn't do all of that and a handstand, I'd be displeased :

My post did not compare Aldon to any other player, so I really don't care how others (Von Miller included) play unless the 9ers are playing that team.

My point was that some are bashing Smith in order to support liking another player better and that seems silly to me. As far as your "handstand" comment, I have no idea why you think any other player could play as well as Aldon has played--guess we see different things. I see a guy who is very disruptive and makes plays all over the field, who can play down or up against the run and can rush the passer. In the 9er system he needs to learn coverage, so he has a part of his game that is not elite.

Still not sure why some have to denigrate a player to boost their point. The 9ers have the top D in football and he is part of it...how is Von Millers D working out? SF #1 fewest points against, Denver #22...I'll take #1 with our rookie playing a "role" rather than being a star. I guess SF could have Willis and Bowman take a seat on the bench so Aldon could make more plays?
Hey. c'mon, Aldo is the real deal with limited playing time. I would love to see him get all the snaps in Rams game, SEA if we get ahead, and anywhere else. This is truly a great draft pick who needs , as noted many times above, more snaps.

Actually, when not on the field on D, let's plug him into RG if snyder is out. Couldn't do worse. The kid is so athletic, it would be fun to see (after practice snaps , of course)
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I honestly don't think any praise is truly due until Smith either sees double teams or makes a Von Miller / Clay Matthews impact. At best Aldon is an Ahmad Brooks, someone who comes off the bench and gets sacks (as he did playing for Manny Lawson); how is Ahmad doing now? Brooks certainly didn't translate his potential into a dominate season this year, although he's pretty solid. Our best pass rusher is Justin Smith, who gets most of the attention.

Makes me wonder if Aldon will pull a Suh when he starts to see double-teams and fails to dominate

WTF? This is one ignorant post newbie. Aldon can ONLY produce when he is on the field and when he is on the field, his presence is felt. That is all you can ask of a raw rookie right now and he is growing his overall game each week. I do agree we are over-praising him b/c many of those sacks have come d/t others getting double-teamed. But some have not and right now, he's providing consistent pressure and has made differences in games. To be fair and objective, I have noticed consistent pressure outside by all three OLB's all year and more often than not, the QB just steps up and throws or runs for gains up the middle and that should never happen with Sopoaga/Willis/Bowman in the middle of the field. If we get that Ngata-type in the middle of the field (a guy who can not only command double teams, stuff the run but also gets a consistent middle push as a two-gapper, those plays go for big time sacks, QB hurries, TO's and 3 and outs. Your comments on Brooks are just straight ignorant. Until Fangio employs a more exotic scheme, the front five is playing about as vanilla and straight-up as it comes and is still producing quite well given those circumstances esp. when you consider guys such as Brooks and Justin Smith are playing every single snap under constant double teams and are still leading the team in TFL, QB hits/pressures/hurries, sacks, tackles and are critical in sealing the edges in leading the #1 ranked rush defense. They are making TONS of plays despite not showing up in the stats categories.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 30, 2011 at 8:42 AM ]