Is David Akers the best kicker we ever had?

Originally posted by susweel:
We never wanted Peyton because Alex is better than Peyton.

A couple of years you would have been laughed out of the building if you suggested Eli was better than Peyton. When Eli said he was top 5 last year pretty much every just chuckled and said sure you are. The same can be said about Brady or Big Ben. As long as the qb continues to improve and the team makes the necessarily improvements as well the discussion on how good qb truly is will evolve.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I think you're severely overrating the gull of Balke and Harbaugh. You just don't walk up to Peyton Manning and offer him an insulting situation just because he expressed interest in joining the team. It is a reported fact that Peyton Manning asked us if he had interest in him providing we were looking for a qb. The provided we were looking for a qb was part of the reported story so don't ignore it. There is no hey I'm cool with playing for free and competing with Alex strings attached to it. Harbaugh and Balke knew that going in.

I've stated multiple times that Manning would be brought in with the opportunity to start, so I'm not ignoring that. You seem to be ignoring my point that nobody knew what Manning was willing to sacrifice in order to play for a SB contender. The Niners were 1 game away from the SB and they did it without Peyton. Before he called the team, they were prepared to go into next season without him. The Niners are a contender without him. Sure it would've be nice to have a future HOFer at QB, but the bottom line is that they don't need him. Therefore, the 49ers aren't obligated to bend over for him...they call the shots here. If Peyton desperately wanted a shot at winning a championship, he would have to be the one to make sacrifices. The Niners are offering him a great situation to win a SB, so its not insulting that he has to sacrifice his ego to make it work. Peyton can't have his cake and eat it too.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Maybe you're right though maybe Harbaugh and Balke had nothing better to do but to insult one of the greatest qbs ever to play the game. Since we don't know what the conversation was about maybe they asked him to play some special teams too. You can't prove otherwise. It's an assumption that Manning wouldn't be cool with playing special teams. How do we know unless we ask him?

Poor analogy. Asking Peyton (an athlete & competitor) to compete for the starting job is beneficial to the team, so that request makes sense. Asking Peyton (a guy coming off a significant neck injury) to sign a cap friendly contract is also beneficial to the team, so that request makes sense. Asking Peyton (a guy who played QB 100% of his time in the NFL) to play special teams is not beneficial to the team, so that request makes zero sense. Harbaugh & Baalke do things that help the team, not hurt it. So no, we don't know if they asked Peyton to play special teams...but we can assume that they didn't because it doesn't help the team at all. Why would Baalke & Harbaugh request something that hurts the 49ers?

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Your assumptions have to be realistic. When Peyton Manning is getting 90 million offers (reported fact) you throwing up a pennies on the dollar offer and a chance to compete for the starting job is not worth anybody's time regardless if Peyton Manning called you up first. The cap room was not even there to sign both Alex and Manning unless you honestly believe Balke had the gull to ask Peyton to sign for Josh Johnson money. The most plausible scenario is we were gaging Peyton's interest in us. Would he take less to go to a team that's Super Bowl ready. I think we both agree on that part just not on the ridiculous parts. Let's not forget Alex Smith was a free agent too. He had no obligation to accept the fact that he had to compete with Manning. If Peyton signed with us the odds of him taking that Miami job go up by somewhere around 100%.

1. The idea that this situation is insulting or unrealistic is completely ridiculous. You claimed that I'm "severely overrating the gull of Baalke and Harbaugh"...but actually, you're severely underrating an athlete's desire to win a championship. I've got a real life example for you:

Karl Malone is one of the greatest players in NBA history. His 2 MVP awards, 14 All-Star appearances, 11 NBA 1st-Team Honors, and other accomplishments helped him get inducted into the HOF. Not to mention he's #2 all-time in NBA scoring. During the 2002-2003 season he was one of the highest paid players in the league, earning over $19M/yr with the Utah Jazz. The following season, Malone became a free agent and was pursued by several teams. He turned down better offers from other teams and decided to play for the Lakers...signing a contract that paid him the league minimum ($1.5M). Malone was willing to play for "pennies" in exchange for the chance to play for a serious contender. Did he find it insulting? NO, because he understood that he needed to make a sacrifice in order to fulfill his desire of being a champion.

BTW, Malone wasn't the only one. That same year, All-Star Gary Payton made a sacrifice to play for the Lakers. He went from earning All-Star money to average starter money...and he did it because he also wanted a chance to win a championship. Another thing I should mention is that they were forced to be role players in addition to taking a pay cut because it was Shaq & Kobe's team. Money and ego is a big deal for many players, but a championship > everything else for some guys. Have you seriously not considered this about Peyton Manning? Obviously you haven't, because earning your role & signing a cap friendly deal to play for a championship caliber team is "insulting" and an impossible scenario in your opinion.

2. There actually is cap room to carry both QBs through pre-season/training camp. It would be a problem in the regular season, but obviously one of them would be cut before then.

3. I never once stated that Peyton would have to settle for Josh Johnson money. I said a "low-risk/high-reward" deal with high incentives was reasonable. With Peyton coming off a severe injury, its fair that he would have to sign a deal that requires him to actually earn the big bucks.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Forgive me for not believing in fairy tales though.

Is it really that far fetched for an athlete to put ego aside for a great opportunity to win a championship? Obviously it isn't the case for every player, but this concept definitely exists in sports. History has shown the possibility of scenarios like this. Its not impossible or a "fairy tale" like you insist.

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
I've stated multiple times that Manning would be brought in with the opportunity to start, so I'm not ignoring that. You seem to be ignoring my point that nobody knew what Manning was willing to sacrifice in order to play for a SB contender. The Niners were 1 game away from the SB and they did it without Peyton. Before he called the team, they were prepared to go into next season without him. The Niners are a contender without him. Sure it would've be nice to have a future HOFer at QB, but the bottom line is that they don't need him. Therefore, the 49ers aren't obligated to bend over for him...they call the shots here. If Peyton desperately wanted a shot at winning a championship, he would have to be the one to make sacrifices. The Niners are offering him a great situation to win a SB, so its not insulting that he has to sacrifice his ego to make it work. Peyton can't have his cake and eat it too.



Poor analogy. Asking Peyton (an athlete & competitor) to compete for the starting job is beneficial to the team, so that request makes sense. Asking Peyton (a guy coming off a significant neck injury) to sign a cap friendly contract is also beneficial to the team, so that request makes sense. Asking Peyton (a guy who played QB 100% of his time in the NFL) to play special teams is not beneficial to the team, so that request makes zero sense. Harbaugh & Baalke do things that help the team, not hurt it. So no, we don't know if they asked Peyton to play special teams...but we can assume that they didn't because it doesn't help the team at all. Why would Baalke & Harbaugh request something that hurts the 49ers?



1. The idea that this situation is insulting or unrealistic is completely ridiculous. You claimed that I'm "severely overrating the gull of Baalke and Harbaugh"...but actually, you're severely underrating an athlete's desire to win a championship. I've got a real life example for you:

Karl Malone is one of the greatest players in NBA history. His 2 MVP awards, 14 All-Star appearances, 11 NBA 1st-Team Honors, and other accomplishments helped him get inducted into the HOF. Not to mention he's #2 all-time in NBA scoring. During the 2002-2003 season he was one of the highest paid players in the league, earning over $19M/yr with the Utah Jazz. The following season, Malone became a free agent and was pursued by several teams. He turned down better offers from other teams and decided to play for the Lakers...signing a contract that paid him the league minimum ($1.5M). Malone was willing to play for "pennies" in exchange for the chance to play for a serious contender. Did he find it insulting? NO, because he understood that he needed to make a sacrifice in order to fulfill his desire of being a champion.

BTW, Malone wasn't the only one. That same year, All-Star Gary Payton made a sacrifice to play for the Lakers. He went from earning All-Star money to average starter money...and he did it because he also wanted a chance to win a championship. Another thing I should mention is that they were forced to be role players in addition to taking a pay cut because it was Shaq & Kobe's team. Money and ego is a big deal for many players, but a championship > everything else for some guys. Have you seriously not considered this about Peyton Manning? Obviously you haven't, because earning your role & signing a cap friendly deal to play for a championship caliber team is "insulting" and an impossible scenario in your opinion.

2. There actually is cap room to carry both QBs through pre-season/training camp. It would be a problem in the regular season, but obviously one of them would be cut before then.

3. I never once stated that Peyton would have to settle for Josh Johnson money. I said a "low-risk/high-reward" deal with high incentives was reasonable. With Peyton coming off a severe injury, its fair that he would have to sign a deal that requires him to actually earn the big bucks.



Is it really that far fetched for an athlete to put ego aside for a great opportunity to win a championship? Obviously it isn't the case for every player, but this concept definitely exists in sports. History has shown the possibility of scenarios like this. Its not impossible or a "fairy tale" like you insist.

Comparing Peyton Manning to Karl Malone is laughable.

Karl Malone was in ring whore mode. He wasn't capable of winning a championship so he had to find somewhere were he could ride someone elses coat tails. If that meant sacrificing money and pride well so be it because the ring is the only that's alluded him. Same goes with Payton. This situation is comparable to Favre. Brett Favre was 37 or 38 when he signed onto Minnesota for 15 million a year. That's what Peyton was looking for and there's no indications that suggest otherwise. Hey San Francisco if you dump your current guy (Tavaris Jackson) I'm more than interested in playing for you at the right price. The difference between us and Minnesota was we actually like Alex and we probally asked Manning to take more concessions than he wanted. Minnesota gave Favre anything he wanted. FTR I know Minnesota didn't cut Tavaris but that just shows you the difference between Tavaris and Alex. Alex is way too good of qb to be a backup.

No, the cap room was not there. We currently have 5 million dollars free in cap space and I find it absolutely hilarious that you think Peyton Manning and Alex Smith would both come here and then say yeah but one would likely have to be cut before the season starts. Get it thru your head neither Manning or Smith would ever sign up to be embarrassed like that. If Peyton took less money (by less money I mean a reasonable contract for a guy of his caliber) Alex is bolting. If we committed to Alex Peyton's not competing for a starting job. These guys have pride and they're not signing up for a degrading qb competition when they've both already established themselves as quarterbacks that can take their team deep into the post season. Harbaugh and Balke aren't going to ask them to do that either because he knows that would be an insult to them. Asking Peyton to play for pennies on the dollar and compete for a starting job is just wasting everyone's time.

The reason I keep trying to pound Peyton's statement that he expressed interest in us because we were a contender that could be looking for a qb is to show you that if we resigned Alex that would without a doubt mean we're not looking for a qb of his caliber. There's no reason to respond to Peyton because you already gave him your answer. No thanks, we're happy with Alex Smith.

that neck is like a great big pus*y just waiting to geh fu*cked , meng.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Comparing Peyton Manning to Karl Malone is laughable.

Karl Malone was in ring whore mode. He wasn't capable of winning a championship so he had to find somewhere were he could ride someone elses coat tails. If that meant sacrificing money and pride well so be it because the ring is the only that's alluded him. Same goes with Payton. This situation is comparable to Favre. Brett Favre was 37 or 38 when he signed onto Minnesota for 15 million a year. That's what Peyton was looking for and there's no indications that suggest otherwise. Hey San Francisco if you dump your current guy (Tavaris Jackson) I'm more than interested in playing for you at the right price. The difference between us and Minnesota was we actually like Alex and we probally asked Manning to take more concessions than he wanted. Minnesota gave Favre anything he wanted. FTR I know Minnesota didn't cut Tavaris but that just shows you the difference between Tavaris and Alex. Alex is way too good of qb to be a backup.

No, the cap room was not there. We currently have 5 million dollars free in cap space and I find it absolutely hilarious that you think Peyton Manning and Alex Smith would both come here and then say yeah but one would likely have to be cut before the season starts. Get it thru your head neither Manning or Smith would ever sign up to be embarrassed like that. If Peyton took less money (by less money I mean a reasonable contract for a guy of his caliber) Alex is bolting. If we committed to Alex Peyton's not competing for a starting job. These guys have pride and they're not signing up for a degrading qb competition when they've both already established themselves as quarterbacks that can take their team deep into the post season. Harbaugh and Balke aren't going to ask them to do that either because he knows that would be an insult to them. Asking Peyton to play for pennies on the dollar and compete for a starting job is just wasting everyone's time.

The reason I keep trying to pound Peyton's statement that he expressed interest in us because we were a contender that could be looking for a qb is to show you that if we resigned Alex that would without a doubt mean we're not looking for a qb of his caliber. There's no reason to respond to Peyton because you already gave him your answer. No thanks, we're happy with Alex Smith.

1. You believe a HOFer would never agree to put his ego aside to play for a team, so I provided an example that proved that idea to be false. You said, "Karl Malone was in ring whore mode". Ok, so then you understand and agree that its possible for an athlete to do whatever it takes for a chance at a championship. That's my point. You can't automatically assume that Peyton wasn't in "ring whore mode" without addressing that possibility. With Peyton taking the money in Denver, its clear he wasn't desperate for another championship run. But my point is that before this whole process, nobody but Peyton himself knew how low he was willing to go for a shot at the SB again...which is why its not crazy to consider all the possibilities of how he can fit on the roster.

2. You're arguing my points as if its my personal opinion that Alex & Peyton had a good chance of both being on the team. If you re-read my previous posts, you'll see that I agreed with you that the scenario of having both Alex & Peyton on the team was unlikely. I never claimed it was gonna happen or that there was a good chance of it happening. You said the situation was impossible, so I just provided a scenario of how it would be possible. Obviously it would have taken a combination of unlikely events (such as convenient contracts, a willingness to compete, and putting ego aside), but my point is that its not crazy to consider the possibility given the fact that its not impossible. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No.

3. You basically believe certain scenarios are impossible, therefore you rule them out completely without further consideration. I'm just pointing out that the scenarios you believe had no chance of happening were actually possible (even if highly unlikely). Our entire argument stems from my opinion that Harbaugh didn't lie to the media. You think he was lying because the ideas he considered also happen to be the ones you believe were impossible. On the other hand, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because the scenarios actually were possible.

Your biggest disagreement with me is based on this quote:

"Now, were we out there seeing, evaluating if we could have them both? Heck, yeah. You evaluate that. You eliminate the possibility. Further evidence, we would not have given any player that was out there in free agency (one-sixth) of our salary cap and let six or seven of our own guys go."

According to you, Harbaugh is lying because you don't think he actually evaluated the scenario since its an "impossible" one in the first place. The way I interpret the quote, Harbaugh evaluated the possibility of Alex signing along with a "ring whore" version of Peyton. After evaluation, he came to the conclusion that it was no longer a possibility.

Now does the quote above insist that he thought there was a good chance of it happening? NO. All this quote says is that he evaluated & eliminated the scenario. I believe he's telling the truth. What's so far fetched about him evaluating and eliminating a potential situation? I don't understand why this is so hard to believe.

Much ado about nothing...

We went to like 1 workout and never gave him a serious offer in the realm he would accept.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Much ado about nothing...

One of my least favorite Shakespeare plays.

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
1. You believe a HOFer would never agree to put his ego aside to play for a team, so I provided an example that proved that idea to be false. You said, "Karl Malone was in ring whore mode". Ok, so then you understand and agree that its possible for an athlete to do whatever it takes for a chance at a championship. That's my point. You can't automatically assume that Peyton wasn't in "ring whore mode" without addressing that possibility. With Peyton taking the money in Denver, its clear he wasn't desperate for another championship run. But my point is that before this whole process, nobody but Peyton himself knew how low he was willing to go for a shot at the SB again...which is why its not crazy to consider all the possibilities of how he can fit on the roster.

2. You're arguing my points as if its my personal opinion that Alex & Peyton had a good chance of both being on the team. If you re-read my previous posts, you'll see that I agreed with you that the scenario of having both Alex & Peyton on the team was unlikely. I never claimed it was gonna happen or that there was a good chance of it happening. You said the situation was impossible, so I just provided a scenario of how it would be possible. Obviously it would have taken a combination of unlikely events (such as convenient contracts, a willingness to compete, and putting ego aside), but my point is that its not crazy to consider the possibility given the fact that its not impossible. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No.

3. You basically believe certain scenarios are impossible, therefore you rule them out completely without further consideration. I'm just pointing out that the scenarios you believe had no chance of happening were actually possible (even if highly unlikely). Our entire argument stems from my opinion that Harbaugh didn't lie to the media. You think he was lying because the ideas he considered also happen to be the ones you believe were impossible. On the other hand, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because the scenarios actually were possible.

Your biggest disagreement with me is based on this quote:

"Now, were we out there seeing, evaluating if we could have them both? Heck, yeah. You evaluate that. You eliminate the possibility. Further evidence, we would not have given any player that was out there in free agency (one-sixth) of our salary cap and let six or seven of our own guys go."

According to you, Harbaugh is lying because you don't think he actually evaluated the scenario since its an "impossible" one in the first place. The way I interpret the quote, Harbaugh evaluated the possibility of Alex signing along with a "ring whore" version of Peyton. After evaluation, he came to the conclusion that it was no longer a possibility.

Now does the quote above insist that he thought there was a good chance of it happening? NO. All this quote says is that he evaluated & eliminated the scenario. I believe he's telling the truth. What's so far fetched about him evaluating and eliminating a potential situation? I don't understand why this is so hard to believe.

You might have a point if these guys didn't have agents and were negotiating blindly. It's a pretty safe assumption that we had a general idea of what Peyton Manning was looking for when he called us. When this was happening I, just a random nobody off the street, knew that Peyton Manning was looking for a 5 year deal worth somewhere in the range of 90 million dollars. You're telling me Harbaugh and Balke didn't know that? You're telling me that Harbaugh and Balke are so naive that they would take Manning calling us to gage our interest means he might be willing to go in ring whore mode which doesn't even exist for NFL qbs.

The notion that someone would come down from that to a deal that doesn't even guarantee him a starting job is absurd. It's absurd to think that Peyton Manning would even consider a job that barely guarantees him a chance to start. Maybe I'm wrong maybe Harbaugh and Balke believes in fairy tales. I'm not buying that though. There's nothing we can say to change each other opinion so you can have the last word if you want but it's been fun.

It's in the team's best interest to spin the truth here. If you guys can't see that I don't know what to tell you. Here's the thing. It's Peyton Manning. Of course we're going to look at him, and it's like someone else said before I don't even think contract parameters were discussed. I think we were looking at Manning and saying could this work. Both parties came from the meeting and said no.

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Really like what you do here, candlestick49er. Glad you found the WZ. Your posts are detailed.. respectful.. and intelligent.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/san-francisco-49ers-coach-jim-harbaugh-explantaion-on-peyton-manning-has-merit-060412

Although Manning looked better than expected in mid-March, his arm strength still wasn't near what it is today in Denver. A coach had to take a leap of faith with Manning. You had to believe that the four-time MVP would keep getting better and better. Denver Broncos vice president John Elway was desperate to believe that because he wanted to jettison Tim Tebow for a conventional quarterback.

Harbaugh now claims that he wasn't in the same situation. He was simply checking his options. And let's also be honest: Harbaugh and Roman and the rest of the coaching staff totally understand Smith's talent limitations while loving his spirit and positive intangibles. They believe they can win with Smith as long as that defense continues to be the best in the NFL and Frank Gore stays healthy. Of course, with Manning, nothing less than a championship would have been expected in San Francisco.

But I do believe Harbaugh when he says there was no way San Francisco was going to sign Manning for $18 million. Elway set the financial parameters early on — didn't I say Denver was desperate? — and the 49ers would have probably had to pay more than that because Peyton didn't want to play in the same conference as his younger brother Eli.

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:

And let's also be honest: Harbaugh and Roman and the rest of the coaching staff totally understand Smith's talent limitations while loving his spirit and positive intangibles. They believe they can win with Smith as long as that defense continues to be the best in the NFL and Frank Gore stays healthy.

Interesting enough read, but this part sounds like purely biased speculation on "what they believe." As far as I can ascertain, the only "weakness" Smith has exhibited is that he hasn't often been required to do more than manage games and sprinkle in a few big plays in the clutch. Not gonna blame the guy because we have a strong D and STs.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Much ado about nothing...

One of my least favorite Shakespeare plays.

I also dislike it, but that only makes it all the more fitting here.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Now MacBeth is some good stuff, and that quote from act five scene five seems also to apply here...

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Really like what you do here, candlestick49er. Glad you found the WZ. Your posts are detailed.. respectful.. and intelligent.

I second that sentiment.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Much ado about nothing...

One of my least favorite Shakespeare plays.

I also dislike it, but that only makes it all the more fitting here.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Now MacBeth is some good stuff, and that quote from act five scene five seems also to apply here...

All this here smart talk gotta get on down the road, fella.