Who would you rather have, Willis or Megatron ??

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by Norcal9erfan:
Megatron is nothing but a micro-machine without a good QB. Willis is a beast all on his own. Speaking of which, our Defense will be responsible, yet again, for injuring one or two of their players. I am crossing my fingers it is Matthew Glass-body Stafford. Wouldn't it be epic to have a Smith vs Hill showdown for old times sake?

1100 yds, 12 tds with shaun hill throwing to him for 11 of those games...? Honestly I think he's a big part of the reason stafford is having any success whatsoever, he would make alex look amazing.

Yeah but..... Shaun Hill is a stud.

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
All the talk about CJ's production is missing the boat, in my opinion. No one who picks Megatron in this thread (like me) is denying that guys like Welker and Bowe and Andre are capable of similar numbers. The reason you pick Megatron is because the huge edge he holds over those guys is an edge not easily quantifiable in terms of yards and receptions, though looking at TDs comes closer. His edge is what he is capable of on any given play or any given series. Defenses are literally powerless to stop this guy. I'm surprised he doesn't score three TDs per game.

And to the guy a few pages back who said "maybe in a few years Megatron will become Moss on steroids and we will revisit this discussion," I ask you: What more do you need to see?

i want to see the player you describe in your first paragraph, the one that its so impossible to defend that he must be rewriting the history of the NFL all by himself.. Calvin Johnson's "unquantifiable edge" over other elite receivers hasn't lead to much in quantifiable results; that is, for all his measurables and whatever, he hasn't, until this season's run of touchdowns, put up numbers equivalent to that hype. People act like he's shattering records left and right. I would take him over any other receiver right now, for sure, but I don't think he's as far ahead of other receivers as people on here as saying. At least not right now, so I'd wait to see how this season and the next couple of years turn out before making those pronouncements.

Unless Jesus comes back as a WR, I am taking Willis.

Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
Unless Jesus comes back as a WR, I am taking Willis.

Jesus had the choice to do so, but he chose to come back as Willis instead.

10 years ago it would have been Willis without batting and eye. In today's NFL, the passing game is so much more important. It's actually a tough choice..I'd probably still take Willis, but that could very well be a bias because he's already a 9er.

Originally posted by Jakemall:
10 years ago it would have been Willis without batting and eye. In today's NFL, the passing game is so much more important. It's actually a tough choice..I'd probably still take Willis, but that could very well be a bias because he's already a 9er.

Really? Seems to me that we're 4-1 and not even passing for 200 yards a game.

Both.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
All the talk about CJ's production is missing the boat, in my opinion. No one who picks Megatron in this thread (like me) is denying that guys like Welker and Bowe and Andre are capable of similar numbers. The reason you pick Megatron is because the huge edge he holds over those guys is an edge not easily quantifiable in terms of yards and receptions, though looking at TDs comes closer. His edge is what he is capable of on any given play or any given series. Defenses are literally powerless to stop this guy. I'm surprised he doesn't score three TDs per game.

And to the guy a few pages back who said "maybe in a few years Megatron will become Moss on steroids and we will revisit this discussion," I ask you: What more do you need to see?

i want to see the player you describe in your first paragraph, the one that its so impossible to defend that he must be rewriting the history of the NFL all by himself.. Calvin Johnson's "unquantifiable edge" over other elite receivers hasn't lead to much in quantifiable results; that is, for all his measurables and whatever, he hasn't, until this season's run of touchdowns, put up numbers equivalent to that hype. People act like he's shattering records left and right. I would take him over any other receiver right now, for sure, but I don't think he's as far ahead of other receivers as people on here as saying. At least not right now, so I'd wait to see how this season and the next couple of years turn out before making those pronouncements.

Until this year he hasn't had a QB with skills to take advantage of CJ's strengths. Stafford was out almost all of last year and a rookie the year before. If CJ had been drafted by a team with a good QB who could spread the field people would've been comparing him to Randy Moss as a rookie.

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
All the talk about CJ's production is missing the boat, in my opinion. No one who picks Megatron in this thread (like me) is denying that guys like Welker and Bowe and Andre are capable of similar numbers. The reason you pick Megatron is because the huge edge he holds over those guys is an edge not easily quantifiable in terms of yards and receptions, though looking at TDs comes closer. His edge is what he is capable of on any given play or any given series. Defenses are literally powerless to stop this guy. I'm surprised he doesn't score three TDs per game.

And to the guy a few pages back who said "maybe in a few years Megatron will become Moss on steroids and we will revisit this discussion," I ask you: What more do you need to see?

i want to see the player you describe in your first paragraph, the one that its so impossible to defend that he must be rewriting the history of the NFL all by himself.. Calvin Johnson's "unquantifiable edge" over other elite receivers hasn't lead to much in quantifiable results; that is, for all his measurables and whatever, he hasn't, until this season's run of touchdowns, put up numbers equivalent to that hype. People act like he's shattering records left and right. I would take him over any other receiver right now, for sure, but I don't think he's as far ahead of other receivers as people on here as saying. At least not right now, so I'd wait to see how this season and the next couple of years turn out before making those pronouncements.

Until this year he hasn't had a QB with skills to take advantage of CJ's strengths. Stafford was out almost all of last year and a rookie the year before. If CJ had been drafted by a team with a good QB who could spread the field people would've been comparing him to Randy Moss as a rookie.

Excusatron

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

Originally posted by sincalfaithful:

Originally posted by Jakemall:
10 years ago it would have been Willis without batting and eye. In today's NFL, the passing game is so much more important. It's actually a tough choice..I'd probably still take Willis, but that could very well be a bias because he's already a 9er.

Really? Seems to me that we're 4-1 and not even passing for 200 yards a game.

We are..and we're the only team in the NFL who's really been able to do that thus far in the past few years...name another team that has had our record or better with a balanced offense... Just one.

Originally posted by sincalfaithful:

Originally posted by Jakemall:
10 years ago it would have been Willis without batting and eye. In today's NFL, the passing game is so much more important. It's actually a tough choice..I'd probably still take Willis, but that could very well be a bias because he's already a 9er.

Really? Seems to me that we're 4-1 and not even passing for 200 yards a game.

We are..and we're the only team in the NFL who's really been able to do that thus far in the past few years...name another team that has had our record or better with a balanced offense... Just one.

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

People forget how medeocre Culpepper was when Moss left.

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

Originally posted by aTx49er:
An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

oh, well, when you put it that way, i'm totally convinced.