There are 194 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

why do we never throw the ball down the field?

Originally posted by NinerGM:
You're right I'm not talking about what "cost" us the game. OL play wasn't the best but you're never going to get perfect OL play. My argument is that Smith needs a perfect situation to win a game. The defensive secondary zone scheme and confusion at times simply couldn't get it together. I completely agree, However, you have to agree Smith can't throw a slant consistently. I didn't say he was Dilfer, but like Dilfer in terms of being limited in what he can do as a QB in a given system. Smith is successful when the line blocks perfectly and he has time within a given play however, Smith is limited. He simply can't throw over the middle of the field reliably compared to Romos almost routine throw to Witten against a zone. Dallas OL was getting blown up by our 4 down rushers. The difference is that Romo regularly got the ball off so quickly - most times before the rush arrived. Timing and placement. Smith still struggles with this.

Have to disagree man, Smith is at his best throwing to the middle. The slant wasn't there most of the day. If the line could have blocked better then VD would have been able to run seam routes and crossing patterns. Smith has greatly improved his accuracy this year, thanks to Harbaugh helping with his mechanics. What looks like the problem is the new zone blocking scheme is taking longer to get right than I expected. This is also the problem with Gore, the holes open up differently in a zone blocking scheme. You are a good poster GM, not trying to knock you, just offering up my opinion for your consideration.
I'm not a big fan of Smith throwing deep as he's not very accurate on the deep throws anymore. It's interesting because he was pretty accurate on deep throws in 2006. After his injury...done. That said, we definitely need to let him throw those intermediate throws. 10-20 yard throws are something he's decent at. It has virtually the same effect on defenses as well because they have to respect the pass. Short passes are basically decent run plays. Defenses still stack the box and eventually scheme to stop those LOS passes. Like yesterday...I can't remember when exactly, but Smith rolled left to make the Harbaugh-special LOS 2 yard pass to Delanie Walker...the 49ers anticipated a heavy pass rush...INSTEAD...Ware (I think) ran left COVERING Walker..and Smith looked at that and went, "didn't expect, lol" and to be honest...that play scared me more than any other. It tells me that as the season goes along...WE HAVE TO stop that bullsht. Teams will catch on. Try that cute stuff against the Eagles or Steelers and we're absolutely done.
[ Edited by LambdaChi49 on Sep 19, 2011 at 9:48 AM ]
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I'm not a big fan of Smith throwing deep as he's not very accurate on the deep throws anymore. It's interesting because he was pretty accurate on deep throws in 2006. After his injury...done. That said, we definitely need to let him throw those intermediate throws. 10-20 yard throws are something he's decent at. It has virtually the same effect on defenses as well because they have to respect the pass. Short passes are basically decent run plays. Defenses still stack the box and eventually scheme to stop those LOS passes. Like yesterday...I can't remember when exactly, but Smith rolled left to make the Harbaugh-special LOS 2 yard pass to Delanie Walker...the 49ers anticipated a rush...INSTEAD...Ware (I think) ran left COVERING Walker..and Smith looked at that and went, "didn't expect, lol" and to be honest...that play scared me more than any other. It tells me that as the season goes along...WE HAVE TO stop that bullsht. Teams will catch on. Try that cute stuff against the Eagles or Steelers and we're absolutely done.

That deep throw on the run, to gore in the endzone looked pretty accurate.... The didn't expect wasn't on Smith, that was just good defense, either they knew our play call and covered the back in teh flat, or they read it when they saw him come out, and he peeled off his blitz and covered the man instead.

the play was dead at that point, everyone else was covered... I'm glad he didn't throw into coverage and force a pick.

That playcall was garbage, almost as bad as all those Jimmy Raye bubble screens to Delanie walker 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage last year.
[ Edited by unst4bl3 on Sep 19, 2011 at 9:50 AM ]
Originally posted by unst4bl3:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I'm not a big fan of Smith throwing deep as he's not very accurate on the deep throws anymore. It's interesting because he was pretty accurate on deep throws in 2006. After his injury...done. That said, we definitely need to let him throw those intermediate throws. 10-20 yard throws are something he's decent at. It has virtually the same effect on defenses as well because they have to respect the pass. Short passes are basically decent run plays. Defenses still stack the box and eventually scheme to stop those LOS passes. Like yesterday...I can't remember when exactly, but Smith rolled left to make the Harbaugh-special LOS 2 yard pass to Delanie Walker...the 49ers anticipated a rush...INSTEAD...Ware (I think) ran left COVERING Walker..and Smith looked at that and went, "didn't expect, lol" and to be honest...that play scared me more than any other. It tells me that as the season goes along...WE HAVE TO stop that bullsht. Teams will catch on. Try that cute stuff against the Eagles or Steelers and we're absolutely done.

That deep throw on the run, to gore in the endzone looked pretty accurate....

Fine but let's be honest..he's not consistently accurate on the deep ball. He either over throws slightly, puts a little too much air underneath (see the Lions game in 2009...first play to Crabtree), etc.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Maybe it's me but the WCO bread-and-butter passing play is the slant. How many slants have you seen in two complete games? Not many. Why? Because Smith is not a QB who can throw timing passes without telegraphing his throw. He's not a WCO QB. This offense requires quick passes not just to RBs but over the middle. Smith rarely every threw to the middle of the field where Dallas is at its weakest - LBs covering TEs. The one TD by Walker where this happened was a formation that looked like a run where both Walker and Davis were on the same side of the field, Davis draws the double-team and Walker is ISO one-on-one. Again this wasn't a pass over the middle, it was a pass to the sidelines.

I have been a Smith supporter but it's so clear to me now more than ever that he is by far the limiting factor on this team. He simply cannot reliably throw a pass over the middle - the three-step drop slant/timing pattern to his WRs that Romo was throwing all day long. We were getting pressure on Romo all game, but he just started throwing the ball faster 3 or 5 steps (mostly 3) - timing pattern to his WRs in the open spots against our zone defense. Smith is most limited when he has to play behind center. He just doesn't read the defense well or understands what's going on because that's where most of the sacks came. When under center, he didn't change his cadence and usually audibled to a running play - never a passing play.

I'm not saying Smith is responsible for this game because clearly there were key mistakes everywhere, but you cannot ask Smith ever to put the game on his shoulders and make plays. He's just not capable. He reminds me of a Trent Dilfer type QB. However teams with those types of QBs in today's NFL aren't going very far.

He is much more accurate than Dilfer. Yesterday was on the defense and offensive line. Smith threw the pick, but the line play and defensive breakdowns are what cost the game. Before this year, if the run game was shut down, the team had no chance, this year Smith has been making plays when the line has given him time. The biggest issues on this team are oline play and defensive breakdowns. Qb play has not cost us anything.

You're right I'm not talking about what "cost" us the game. OL play wasn't the best but you're never going to get perfect OL play. My argument is that Smith needs a perfect situation to win a game. The defensive secondary zone scheme and confusion at times simply couldn't get it together. I completely agree, However, you have to agree Smith can't throw a slant consistently. I didn't say he was Dilfer, but like Dilfer in terms of being limited in what he can do as a QB in a given system. Smith is successful when the line blocks perfectly and he has time within a given play however, Smith is limited. He simply can't throw over the middle of the field reliably compared to Romos almost routine throw to Witten against a zone. Dallas OL was getting blown up by our 4 down rushers. The difference is that Romo regularly got the ball off so quickly - most times before the rush arrived. Timing and placement. Smith still struggles with this.

RE: Middle zones.

Romo had two BIG advantages.

1. Jason Witten is the best pass receiving TE in football and his greatest strength is Vernon Davis' greatest weakness; Witten can read and adjust his routes better than anyone else in the game in recent years. That is why he has been to 7 Pro Bowls. We saw the results.

2. Unlike Smith, Romo was able to take advantage of the soft zone that Fangio called all day long. It was custom-made to complete those middle throws to Witten. Rob Ryan, in contrast, had Sean Lee dropping into those short zones all day long, and with Vernon held in to block, the slant was never there. That same zone also made it possible for Dallas to complete the slants and then with DBs taking terrible angles on the receiver, turn into long gains.

If we are going to compare two QBs, we also have to look at what is around them. Romo had two of his top three targets available to him and Smith's top target was a 4th stringer.
Originally posted by unst4bl3:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I'm not a big fan of Smith throwing deep as he's not very accurate on the deep throws anymore. It's interesting because he was pretty accurate on deep throws in 2006. After his injury...done. That said, we definitely need to let him throw those intermediate throws. 10-20 yard throws are something he's decent at. It has virtually the same effect on defenses as well because they have to respect the pass. Short passes are basically decent run plays. Defenses still stack the box and eventually scheme to stop those LOS passes. Like yesterday...I can't remember when exactly, but Smith rolled left to make the Harbaugh-special LOS 2 yard pass to Delanie Walker...the 49ers anticipated a rush...INSTEAD...Ware (I think) ran left COVERING Walker..and Smith looked at that and went, "didn't expect, lol" and to be honest...that play scared me more than any other. It tells me that as the season goes along...WE HAVE TO stop that bullsht. Teams will catch on. Try that cute stuff against the Eagles or Steelers and we're absolutely done.

That deep throw on the run, to gore in the endzone looked pretty accurate.... The didn't expect wasn't on Smith, that was just good defense, either they knew our play call and covered the back in teh flat, or they read it when they saw him come out, and he peeled off his blitz and covered the man instead.

the play was dead at that point, everyone else was covered... I'm glad he didn't throw into coverage and force a pick.

That playcall was garbage, almost as bad as all those Jimmy Raye bubble screens to Delanie walker 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage last year.

No I totally agree that the play calling on that wasn't great. That's why it bothered me. Teams are catching on. Cowboys did brilliant on that...and we got (subtly) owned.
Ever since we released Chris Hogan, there has been no one to throw the ball to downfield.
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
No I totally agree that the play calling on that wasn't great. That's why it bothered me. Teams are catching on. Cowboys did brilliant on that...and we got (subtly) owned.

True.

Btw on Alex's INT, it looked just like that terrible one he threw in the preseason. The defender kinda dropped back/ then sat right infront of where he wanted to throw. And he threw it there anyways.
The best throw I have ever seen Alex make was that trust throw to Gore deep down the field. We need to see more of those from Alex. It was a very good play.
  • FL9er
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,899
Until teams respect the 49ers passing game, and that won't happen until the OL plays better, what you saw yesterday is what you're going to see all year. Opponents don't respect the 49ers offense (specifically Smith or the OL) so they're just attacking the LOS knowing the 49ers can't beat them over the top. Everyone in the organization needs to honestly evaluate the personnel (one of the reasons I was somewhat disappointed Baalke was promoted). Is this offensive group one that can win playoff games/compete with elite defenses?
Originally posted by FL9er:
Until teams respect the 49ers passing game, and that won't happen until the OL plays better, what you saw yesterday is what you're going to see all year. Opponents don't respect the 49ers offense (specifically Smith or the OL) so they're just attacking the LOS knowing the 49ers can't beat them over the top. Everyone in the organization needs to honestly evaluate the personnel (one of the reasons I was somewhat disappointed Baalke was promoted). Is this offensive group one that can win playoff games/compete with elite defenses?

Won't happen without a healthy Edwards and also Crabtree playing to potential. The current group of WRs are not going to scare anyone. WILL. NOT. HAPPEN.
Originally posted by unst4bl3:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
No I totally agree that the play calling on that wasn't great. That's why it bothered me. Teams are catching on. Cowboys did brilliant on that...and we got (subtly) owned.

True.

Btw on Alex's INT, it looked just like that terrible one he threw in the preseason. The defender kinda dropped back/ then sat right infront of where he wanted to throw. And he threw it there anyways.

I've learned to just accept those from time to time from Alex. Billick noted that looked like Alex thought Morgan was running one way and that it was a miscommunication.

I just think it's "Alex gonna be Alex, lol"
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
Originally posted by unst4bl3:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
No I totally agree that the play calling on that wasn't great. That's why it bothered me. Teams are catching on. Cowboys did brilliant on that...and we got (subtly) owned.

True.

Btw on Alex's INT, it looked just like that terrible one he threw in the preseason. The defender kinda dropped back/ then sat right infront of where he wanted to throw. And he threw it there anyways.

I've learned to just accept those from time to time from Alex. Billick noted that looked like Alex thought Morgan was running one way and that it was a miscommunication.

I just think it's "Alex gonna be Alex, lol"

Alex was supposed to throw an out to Vernon because everyone cleared out and Vernon had the sideline open but it seemed as if Alex expected him to run a curl which was the incorrect read.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by b9er37:
Originally posted by dmax:
the offensive line cant pass protect worth a damn...thats why

Joe staley was get abused all day long...

That's because the defense knows our qb can't beat them so they can play man coverage and bring blitzers on every play.
We have been cursed with poor qb play for the past 7+ years.

Hey, wake up. This thread is about today, this year. Not last year or 5 years ago. Smith beat the defense twice for TDs yesterday on very well thrown balls.

Part of it was that Dallas knew that with only back up WRs on the field, there was no reason to panic. Romo had Witten, the best pass receiving TE in football and Miles Austin, a top 10 receiver. Smith had guys that wouldn't make the roster on most other teams. Who you gonna throw to?

Vernon Davis, DW, Gore, Ginn....
Cuz our QB is Mr. Noodle Arm 2.0