why do we never throw the ball down the field?

Originally posted by backontop:
You do realize that the OLine has to give Smith the time to go through his progressions and that the receivers have to actually be open before the ball can be thrown to any receiver right? BTW Gore was second to last in receptions yards on Sunday, just an FYI. If Smith only checks the ball down then Gore would have led the team in receptions and yards. Alex Smith hit 7 different receivers....not exactly just checking the ball down now is it.

When the ball left Smith's hand, was Kyle Williams open? Not really. Smith threw a perfect pass over the top of the defense and let Williams make a play.
Not even Walker was wide open when the ball left his hand. Those were just two very good throws.

Smith has very few attempts, so obviously Gore isn't going to get a lot of receptions. And "check down" doesn't always mean Gore.

I can't wait to see more great plays from Alex Smith as he progresses in the offense. He is playing well. Let's hope with more confidence comes more throws down the field. We should be happy he is playing the best he has in his career, rather than arguing about his style of play, which yes, I still contend is relatively conservative.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

You do not always need a ton of time or a 7-step drop for a big play downfield. Again, Smith just sucks at the quick pass from under center hitting the receiver in stride without telegraphing the throw. There's a difference between waiting for your receivers to "get deep" and the WCO which primarily asks its receivers to get YAC.

An example of what I mean is in the following video:


<div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ">Look at the first play, time stamp 1:33. I know many of you older Niner fans remember this game. Why was this a big play? Because we attacked the middle of the field and the play alignment matched a WR on a LB/SS.</div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ">Last week we KNEW that Dallas had issues covering with their LB corps and their secondary was full of rookies and journeymen just signed. More three step dropuyyuys, attacking the middle of the field - even with Walker is a mismatch. However, I believe that Smith is not reliable throwing passes in the middle of the field which is why he isn't, as Maiocco says "asked to do that much". When your team is trying to win a game and you're not asking him to do much you have to ask yourself "why?".</div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ">Again, I'm not saying Smith is the reason we lost this game, but clearly Smith has his limits and there HAS to be a reason we're not calling basic, bread and butter type WCO passing plays as seen above.</div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ"> </div> <div class="video youtube-XZ_H8B8E5tQ">3- step drop, attack middle of the filed, over the SS who's either blitzing or in for run support. Dallas was in this defensive formation ALL DAY on Sunday.</div>

Wasn't the knock on Smith that he didn't throw the outs well? He has always thrown the seam routes very well. The play calling has to be more aggressive, I think Smith can make any throw they ask him to.

I think one of the main reasons they're not throwing downfield right now are the injuries to Edwards and Crabtree. When those guys get back on the field I think you'll see more shots deep, though the WCO will never resemble, say, the Norv Turner offense with a lot of deep drops and long passes.

get KW the ball on a slant. He'll take it to the house.

Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:

get KW the ball on a slant. He'll take it to the house.

That hook up for the touchdown was sick, the kids got some good hands. I would rather see him out there running routes than Ginn.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
At the risk of being too positive after a loss, I thought this was Smith's best game in years. The interception was disappointing but other than that he made plays with his legs, threw a very nice long pass after the errant snap, and generally played with heart and toughness. His team mates were very positive about his performance so he is building a leadership perona.

At the beginning of preseason I thought the 9ers would be blown out by any decent team and struggle against the very worst, at least until mid-season when they would start to settle into the new offense and defense. They are ahead of schedule, though the loss was agonizing.

Haven't figured out why the run game is so bad but someone mentioned switching blocking schemes and that is probably the reason. No one is pointing fingers yet and that is also a good sign. They will continue to improve and I would expect they will still have a decent record this year--8-8 or 9-7.

They desperately need speed and playmakers at WR and DBs. I thought Edwards and Crabtree would become a good pairing but that seems unlikely now. Ginn is just not able to catch consistently...and explain that to me! Can catch a punt but not a pass? Depth perception? Morgan is one of my favorites but he is a 3rd or 4th at best. At the moment...is Rogers the only DB playing decently? Whitner? Wow did I overrate these guys...or is it the loss of Spencer?

I was only upset with the one decision by Harbaugh. But besides that, and the fact that we lost, everything else was about what I expected or much better.

Much better:
1) Alex Smith is making plays in this offense. "Making plays" meaning: Throwing off balance, throwing on the move, throwing with pressure.
2) Pass rush was fantastic. McDonald is a beast, Aldon Smith was a half step from a sack several times but Romo gets rid of the ball so darn quick. Brooks was good too, and Haralson wasn't too bad either. (Obviously, we all now JS is a beast).
3) Bowman is a player, he will be a very good player in this league, he is already a good player.
4) Play calling was pretty good. It's not the play callers fault that Smith doesn't throw deep. He doesn't have the moxie of a Cam Newton or Tony Romo. He likes to play it safe, that's just how he's wired.

What I expected:
1) Gore not getting going. At this point, teams are game planning for Gore 90% and game planning for Smith 10%. With more passing yards, we can take the pressure off of Gore. The pass sets up the run in the WCO. On one-on-one's Smith needs to go down field more. Give Vernon a chance to catch a jump ball.
2) Pass defense. Much of it was to the TE. We have a third string safety and a backup corner in their right now. Tony Romo might make mistakes, but he makes up for them with big plays. That is his MO.
3) O-line was able to give Smith some good time in the first half. Then their defense made adjustments and destroyed our play-action before it got started in the second half. Our half time adjustments need work. We need to get away from the roll outs and quick screens.

Need to get better:
1) We need a more aggressive mindset. If you get awarded a 15 yard penalty for a first down, you take it. 15 yards is a lot; time off the clock is important when you're ahead in the 4th quarter. If you're down by 10, with 11 min left, you take the 3 points, but if you're up by 7, you've got to take advantage of huge, momentum changing penalties. Expect to score a TD, burn some clock, go for the win. Prepare for the worst, but don't fear it.

What are you talking about? I hate when posters try and pretend like they know what someone does or doesn't like to do. It's almost as bad as when they try to assume they know what Bill Walsh would do with the players of this team now.

Ginn, Morgan, Davis, Crabtree, Walker are always going on deep routes, Smith chooses the check down. I have seen it, over and over and over. For example, in the preseason, Davis was running a post corner. He had a safety behind him, but if Smith threw to the corner, he would have easily beat the safety.

So I guess the Colts play calling is preventing their quarterback from going deep also?
And I guess Carolina is calling for more "deep passes" then we have in the last 7 years?

You think its a coincidence that Smith has only thrown for over 300 yards 2-3 times in 7 seasons? Occam's razor says that instead of coming up with 100 other excuses, instead of blaming 3 different coaches, 7 different coordinators, dozens of different O-linemen and WR's, its probably best to go with the common denominator over the last 7 seasons.

Smith is playing well, but YES, he likes the check down.

You do realize that the OLine has to give Smith the time to go through his progressions and that the receivers have to actually be open before the ball can be thrown to any receiver right? BTW Gore was second to last in receptions yards on Sunday, just an FYI. If Smith only checks the ball down then Gore would have led the team in receptions and yards. Alex Smith hit 7 different receivers....not exactly just checking the ball down now is it.

You do not always need a ton of time or a 7-step drop for a big play downfield. Again, Smith just sucks at the quick pass from under center hitting the receiver in stride without telegraphing the throw. There's a difference between waiting for your receivers to "get deep" and the WCO which primarily asks its receivers to get YAC.

An example of what I mean is in the following video:






Look at the first play, time stamp 1:33. I know many of you older Niner fans remember this game. Why was this a big play? Because we attacked the middle of the field and the play alignment matched a WR on a LB/SS.


Last week we KNEW that Dallas had issues covering with their LB corps and their secondary was full of rookies and journeymen just signed. More three step drops, attacking the middle of the field - even with Walker is a mismatch. However, I believe that Smith is not reliable throwing passes in the middle of the field which is why he isn't, as Maiocco says "asked to do that much". When your team is trying to win a game and you're not asking him to do much you have to ask yourself "why?".


Again, I'm not saying Smith is the reason we lost this game, but clearly Smith has his limits and there HAS to be a reason we're not calling basic, bread and butter type WCO passing plays as seen above.


3- step drop, attack middle of the filed, over the LB/SS who's either blitzing or in for run support. Dallas was in this defensive formation ALL DAY on Sunday.

Oh and FYI - that's Elvis Grbac throwing, not Montana or Young.

Dallas took away the short middle very effectively by dropping Sean Lee into those zones.

Also Jay Ratliff and the DTs were getting a good push up the middle which limited the passing lanes over the middle.

Vernon Davis has been the only deep middle threat and he is being asked to block more than in the past.

As the offense gets filled out, I expect to see more throws into the middle, however, at this time, that area has been shut off. It may also open up more when Edwards and Crabtree get healthy. Morgan has never been effective over the middle (he isn't particularly effective anywhere) and Ginn is too light to last very long running into safeties that prowl those areas.

So what to do?

Originally posted by NinerGM:
You do not always need a ton of time or a 7-step drop for a big play downfield. Again, Smith just sucks at the quick pass from under center hitting the receiver in stride without telegraphing the throw. There's a difference between waiting for your receivers to "get deep" and the WCO which primarily asks its receivers to get YAC.

An example of what I mean is in the following video:






Look at the first play, time stamp 1:33. I know many of you older Niner fans remember this game. Why was this a big play? Because we attacked the middle of the field and the play alignment matched a WR on a LB/SS.


Last week we KNEW that Dallas had issues covering with their LB corps and their secondary was full of rookies and journeymen just signed. More three step drops, attacking the middle of the field - even with Walker is a mismatch. However, I believe that Smith is not reliable throwing passes in the middle of the field which is why he isn't, as Maiocco says "asked to do that much". When your team is trying to win a game and you're not asking him to do much you have to ask yourself "why?".


Again, I'm not saying Smith is the reason we lost this game, but clearly Smith has his limits and there HAS to be a reason we're not calling basic, bread and butter type WCO passing plays as seen above.


3- step drop, attack middle of the filed, over the LB/SS who's either blitzing or in for run support. Dallas was in this defensive formation ALL DAY on Sunday.

Oh and FYI - that's Elvis Grbac throwing, not Montana or Young.

Plays like this look easy when you have a Jerry Rice in your team...........

Originally posted by dj43:
Dallas took away the short middle very effectively by dropping Sean Lee into those zones.

Also Jay Ratliff and the DTs were getting a good push up the middle which limited the passing lanes over the middle.

Vernon Davis has been the only deep middle threat and he is being asked to block more than in the past.

As the offense gets filled out, I expect to see more throws into the middle, however, at this time, that area has been shut off. It may also open up more when Edwards and Crabtree get healthy. Morgan has never been effective over the middle (he isn't particularly effective anywhere) and Ginn is too light to last very long running into safeties that prowl those areas.

So what to do?

dj, I have to disagree with you on a lot of these points.

Sean Lee vs dropping into coverage is advantage us IF the QB makes the proper read.

Good push to limit the passing lanes doesn't mean the OL can ride their push and move them to open a hole for a 1 second throw.

Delanie Walker is very capable of a middle of a field threat especially short middle since he is shifty along with Ginn.

slot receivers are not big receivers. Ginn would be ideal to run a slant. Many teams run slants with smaller shifty receivers.

Originally posted by Psinex:
Easy. Our pass blocking and in this particular game, Braylon Edwards and Crabtree being out. Not enough guys who can get open or catch the ball over DB's, stretch the field consistently. Our one known guy, Vernon, was covered like flies on sh*t. And Ted Ginn had a pretty decent game, but it wasn't enough.

Also when we have our TE alligator arms a nicely thrown ball

Originally posted by Joecool:
dj, I have to disagree with you on a lot of these points.

Sean Lee vs dropping into coverage is advantage us IF the QB makes the proper read.

Good push to limit the passing lanes doesn't mean the OL can ride their push and move them to open a hole for a 1 second throw.

Delanie Walker is very capable of a middle of a field threat especially short middle since he is shifty along with Ginn.

slot receivers are not big receivers. Ginn would be ideal to run a slant. Many teams run slants with smaller shifty receivers.

I think the point was that the slant is a quick hit and that a LB sitting in the middle pretty much messes with the play. If the QB can hit the receiver before the LB gets into position or if the QB can wait for the receiver to outrun the LB fine, but the slant is usually used to punish a team for vacating the middle on blitzes.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Dallas took away the short middle very effectively by dropping Sean Lee into those zones.

Also Jay Ratliff and the DTs were getting a good push up the middle which limited the passing lanes over the middle.

Vernon Davis has been the only deep middle threat and he is being asked to block more than in the past.

As the offense gets filled out, I expect to see more throws into the middle, however, at this time, that area has been shut off. It may also open up more when Edwards and Crabtree get healthy. Morgan has never been effective over the middle (he isn't particularly effective anywhere) and Ginn is too light to last very long running into safeties that prowl those areas.

So what to do?

dj, I have to disagree with you on a lot of these points.

Sean Lee vs dropping into coverage is advantage us IF the QB makes the proper read.

Good push to limit the passing lanes doesn't mean the OL can ride their push and move them to open a hole for a 1 second throw.

Delanie Walker is very capable of a middle of a field threat especially short middle since he is shifty along with Ginn.

slot receivers are not big receivers. Ginn would be ideal to run a slant. Many teams run slants with smaller shifty receivers.

Lee was playing the short drop zone and Ryan was guessing well which side to drop him into. The result was that he was between Smith and the receiver on the few occasions when the slant was run. It isn't that he has to man up on someone. All he has to do is get in the quick throw lane...and that is not hard to do if you guess correctly...and Dallas did.

I understand fully about what the OL has to do. The fact was, Dallas got a quick push most of the time and Smith had to look/throw around them if he was to hit the short zone.

Walker and Ginn COULD run those routes but I do not think Harbaugh trusts Ginn in the middle of the field. Walker could run those routes but with Vernon Davis already in the game, that would leave the 49ers with Ginn and Morgan on the outside and neither of them are going to scare anyone.

I get it that this team needs to air it out more. I just don't think the long routes are going to be there with any consistency until Edwards comes back and Crabtree is healthy. I hope I'm wrong because MC likely will need a couple more weeks to get healthy and then will need to get game ready and in sync with Smith.

I think JH will TRY to open things up some more against Cincy. It is just that the tool box is only half full right now. Frustrating.