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A big Implosion?

Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Why would they "save" the starting QB for the next game? It's regular season, if you're healthy, you play.

We are talking about a new offense that Alex needs to learn how to apply. He wasn't getting sacked every play. The OL started out bad and had certain spots after that. It wasn't on every pass play that HOU applied pressure. Smith's 3rd sack was on him when he hitched forward twice and was late finding a guy. These are things that need to be worked on and run that play again later to see if Smith hits the guy sooner.

I guess we will just wait until regular season and he will make another error like that because he wasn't sure of his read. Too bad he didn't practice it in a preseason game.

Why would they "save" the starting QB for the next game?

Okay...let's say the Niners are trailing 40-0 in the 3rd Quarter and Alex has gotten creamed all game long. Do you keep him in because "if you're healthy, you play"? Or do you consider the fact that you won't be victorious this week and put in some backups to get PT while ensuring your starters don't get hurt in a game you're sure to lose? This is what I mean. And it doesn't just apply to QBs either. I'd be pissed as hell if Patrick Willis broke his ankle playing in a blowout loss.
What if the score is 0-0 and our QB is getting creamed?
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by Joecool:
The entire premise of Alex Smith succeeding by supporters is that he wasn't put in a position to succeed. And that is happening again. Don't you think that in order for Alex, our starting QB, to have a better chance to succeed in this offense is to get as many starter reps as possible? Why is Harbaugh's decision not to do this any different than previous coaches? Why is it better when Harbaugh isn't putting him in the best position to succeed?

You honestly believe that leaving Alex behind that offensive line given how poorly they were playing would be putting him in the best position to succeed? What's success when you win a meaningless preseason game and your QB has a broken back?
The protection was better when Colin was in. The protection started out bad but got better enough to get throws out.

Let us wait until regular season to put him under distress. THAT will really help.


Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Its funny because had this been the regular season, and the QB was getting pounded like that in a game in which his team is losing, people would be crying for the starter to be removed and preserved for the following week. So because the games don't count we should leave our #1 QB on the field when it's clear the O-Line is playing terribly? Only in NT do people think backwards....

Why would they "save" the starting QB for the next game? It's regular season, if you're healthy, you play.

We are talking about a new offense that Alex needs to learn how to apply. He wasn't getting sacked every play. The OL started out bad and had certain spots after that. It wasn't on every pass play that HOU applied pressure. Smith's 3rd sack was on him when he hitched forward twice and was late finding a guy. These are things that need to be worked on and run that play again later to see if Smith hits the guy sooner.

I guess we will just wait until regular season and he will make another error like that because he wasn't sure of his read. Too bad he didn't practice it in a preseason game.

Obviously didn't watch the game.
  • SaksV
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Originally posted by Joecool:
What if the score is 0-0 and our QB is getting creamed?

Pre-season or regular season? Be specific. In a Week 6 matchup I'm keeping my starter in there. In a Pre-Season Game there's little benefit.

Would you leave in Joe Montana? If you're healthy, you play.....right?
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
It is the preseason, and the games are meaningless in regards to the 2011 record. I did not freak out over the Saints game, where the team was caught off guard in the 1st preseason game by a Saints coach who threw everything at the Niners.

However, the 3rd preseason game is the most crucial game, and the team was clearly not even close to being ready. We have a coach very frustrated, position coaches scratching their heads, players doing soul searching, and the overall feeling that things are on the wrong track. Not a good sign for a first year NFL head coach, in a transitional offense, in a limited preseason, with a QB who has struggled, and an unhappy RB, behind a broken offensive line that hasn't even declared a clear starter at center and right guard.

You are not clueless, but overly optimistic that the team can simply flip the switch and everything will come together. Maybe I am too skeptical.
I totally agree. I have no idea if we'll be any good this year. I doubt that Smith will get better. If he's going to get better, I assume he should have taken all the reps he could get. I agree with ALL of that. I just don't think we know the reasons behind what coaches do in the preseason. So, making judgements based on plays being run, or the O-lone looking horrible, it just doesn't make sense to me. Though again, to a clueless person like me, the line looks horrible. Like I said before, maybe we were running a play that the coach wanted to see, even though it made no sense to run it in that instance. Just because they wanted to see if pulling the guard on that play worked against what the defense was showing. Just to see if the guard could really get out there fast enough against a specific player or defense. Maybe that's not a great example, but one thing's for sure, the coach doesn't give a rats ass what the fans think about the preseason. He's just trying things out. And as far as the 3rd game being the most important, that's usually true, but I doubt that's the way Harabugh's looking at it this year. They're still about where they'd be in the first preseason game of a normal off season. Anyway, I doubt we'll just "flip a switch" when the season begins. We'll need the first half of the year to get the whole offense in, most likely. It's not going to be pretty, at least early. But, again, it's preseason of a lockout off season, so making a bunch of judgements seems short sighted. I realize it won't stop most of the "fans" from doing it though. Again, just my opinion.
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by Joecool:
What if the score is 0-0 and our QB is getting creamed?

Pre-season or regular season? Be specific. In a Week 6 matchup I'm keeping my starter in there. In a Pre-Season Game there's little benefit.

Would you leave in Joe Montana? If you're healthy, you play.....right?
No, but I would leave in Alex Smith, a qb who is "ineffective" until he understands the entire offense which is a huge reason supporters of his have used that he was never in a situation to succeed. You can't just give him limited game reps and expect him to play well. Our QB being Alex Smith is the main reason this "QB Competition" by Harbaugh is not a smart move, it was same reason why the same done by Singletary and Nolan wasn't a good move. This guy needs live reps as many as possible be it with pressure to practice how to scramble and find a target better or with barely enough time to be able to find the checkdown in this offense faster, or in an ideal situation to run it like a machine.

I just don't see how you all are not seeing the fact that Harbaugh is treating this "QB Competition" no different than Nowin and Singletary treated it and that resulted in the "winner" to have less preseason reps to practice the new offense.

It has proven not to work very well.
[ Edited by Joecool on Aug 30, 2011 at 1:06 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Why would they "save" the starting QB for the next game? It's regular season, if you're healthy, you play.

We are talking about a new offense that Alex needs to learn how to apply. He wasn't getting sacked every play. The OL started out bad and had certain spots after that. It wasn't on every pass play that HOU applied pressure. Smith's 3rd sack was on him when he hitched forward twice and was late finding a guy. These are things that need to be worked on and run that play again later to see if Smith hits the guy sooner.

I guess we will just wait until regular season and he will make another error like that because he wasn't sure of his read. Too bad he didn't practice it in a preseason game.

Why would they "save" the starting QB for the next game?

Okay...let's say the Niners are trailing 40-0 in the 3rd Quarter and Alex has gotten creamed all game long. Do you keep him in because "if you're healthy, you play"? Or do you consider the fact that you won't be victorious this week and put in some backups to get PT while ensuring your starters don't get hurt in a game you're sure to lose? This is what I mean. And it doesn't just apply to QBs either. I'd be pissed as hell if Patrick Willis broke his ankle playing in a blowout loss.
What if the score is 0-0 and our QB is getting creamed?

0-0 stays in game, if not shows we have no faith in him, even in a scoreless game.

If being creamed, take out, if its gotta do with poor play, and not the defense given up so many points. Even then take Alex out.
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, but I would leave in Alex Smith, a qb who is "ineffective" until he understands the entire offense which is a huge reason supporters of his have used that he was never in a situation to succeed. You can't just give him limited game reps and expect him to play well. Our QB being Alex Smith is the main reason this "QB Competition" by Harbaugh is not a smart move, it was same reason why the same done by Singletary and Nolan wasn't a good move. This guy needs live reps as many as possible be it with pressure to practice how to scramble and find a target better or with barely enough time to be able to find the checkdown in this offense faster, or in an ideal situation to run it like a machine.

I just don't see how you all are not seeing the fact that Harbaugh is treating this "QB Competition" no different than Nowin and Singletary treated it and that resulted in the "winner" to have less preseason reps to practice the new offense.

It has proven not to work very well.

What QB competition? Really think there is one?

... and Alex may have not been taking sacks every play, but he was getting hit on what? 5 out of the 6 pass plays attempted?

... and what was the 3rd sack? You talking bout the play where Goodwin let the DT straight through on the "two-minute" drive attempt at the very in of the 2nd quarter?

Do you really put more weight in getting extra snaps than you do of protecting your starting QB in preseason when it was clear that the OL wasn't giving him 3 seconds of protection?

... or do you really want Alex to have more snaps just so he can get injured and not play, hmmm?
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, but I would leave in Alex Smith, a qb who is "ineffective" until he understands the entire offense which is a huge reason supporters of his have used that he was never in a situation to succeed. You can't just give him limited game reps and expect him to play well. Our QB being Alex Smith is the main reason this "QB Competition" by Harbaugh is not a smart move, it was same reason why the same done by Singletary and Nolan wasn't a good move. This guy needs live reps as many as possible be it with pressure to practice how to scramble and find a target better or with barely enough time to be able to find the checkdown in this offense faster, or in an ideal situation to run it like a machine.

I just don't see how you all are not seeing the fact that Harbaugh is treating this "QB Competition" no different than Nowin and Singletary treated it and that resulted in the "winner" to have less preseason reps to practice the new offense.

It has proven not to work very well.

What QB competition? Really think there is one?

... and Alex may have not been taking sacks every play, but he was getting hit on what? 5 out of the 6 pass plays attempted?

... and what was the 3rd sack? You talking bout the play where Goodwin let the DT straight through on the "two-minute" drive attempt at the very in of the 2nd quarter?

Do you really put more weight in getting extra snaps than you do of protecting your starting QB in preseason when it was clear that the OL wasn't giving him 3 seconds of protection?

... or do you really want Alex to have more snaps just so he can get injured and not play, hmmm?
I'm sarcastic about the bold because 49ers fans have accustomed to pretend QB competitions from what are considered amateur crap coaches. My point is that if there isn't really a competition, then why is our starter's reps reduced?

I did watch the game. One of the hits had Alex hitch on his first read and hitch again only to be late on his second read. When Colin was in, he was hurried but only sacked twice and a few of those hurries, he had time to scramble which means he was probably late on his read. The offensive line looked much worse because of the pressure in the first series. Don't forget a couple of drops by the WR's also. It wasn't great, but are you saying Harbaugh took out Alex because of the pressure or because he had already planned to take him out early in place of Colin because he said so prior to the game.

Should have let Alex play longer and try to settle things down as a leader of the offense should and make adjustments to the OL or clarify the blocking in the huddle. This is what he would be requried to do in regular season so why not actually...um...practice it?

But I guess the decision be Harbaugh to give Colin Alex's starting reps (predetermined and nothing to do with the pressure) was a smart one. Yes, let me kill the confidence of my Pistol Offense rookie by letting him feel the pressure as did Nolan with Alex.
[ Edited by Joecool on Aug 30, 2011 at 1:24 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
When Nowin took starter reps away, it was the first time.
When Sinletary took starter reps away, it was mentioned but the players had already played together before but it did not go unoticed.
Now Harbaugh is doing the exact same thing and ...we are closing our eyes.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me three times,...um...don't care if you are deemed as a QB whisperer, didn't work in the past and won't work now.

Or you could look at it like this...

Harbaugh has seen all he needs to see from Alex. When he looks at our OL protection, he cringes, and realizes that he better NOT put Alex behind that crap or two things could happen. (1) Alex gets mangled and misses time with injury (2) Alex's happy feet return and his mind stays too rattled to do his job.

I do get what you are saying, and it has to take away from the starter's overall comfort when you reduce snaps. But better that, than to get the QB injured or rattled before you can address the real concern (OL protection) first.

Perfect! Alex can get mangled in a real game instead of in a preseason game where he can communicate and make adjustments with his OL/RB/WR's and coach.

Maybe the bold was Nowin's and Singletary's genius plan also. But I'm sure they won't get credit for that idea.


Are you pulling our proverbial leg, or what? Seriously?

You've been beating this thing about shared reps like drum for some time now. And, frankly, while you have a small, VERY SMALL, point the whole thing smacks of either (i) a colossal put-on, or (ii) grasping at straws.

Time to drop it and move on.
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
When Nowin took starter reps away, it was the first time.
When Sinletary took starter reps away, it was mentioned but the players had already played together before but it did not go unoticed.
Now Harbaugh is doing the exact same thing and ...we are closing our eyes.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me three times,...um...don't care if you are deemed as a QB whisperer, didn't work in the past and won't work now.

Or you could look at it like this...

Harbaugh has seen all he needs to see from Alex. When he looks at our OL protection, he cringes, and realizes that he better NOT put Alex behind that crap or two things could happen. (1) Alex gets mangled and misses time with injury (2) Alex's happy feet return and his mind stays too rattled to do his job.

I do get what you are saying, and it has to take away from the starter's overall comfort when you reduce snaps. But better that, than to get the QB injured or rattled before you can address the real concern (OL protection) first.

Perfect! Alex can get mangled in a real game instead of in a preseason game where he can communicate and make adjustments with his OL/RB/WR's and coach.

Maybe the bold was Nowin's and Singletary's genius plan also. But I'm sure they won't get credit for that idea.


Are you pulling our proverbial leg, or what? Seriously?

You've been beating this thing about shared reps like drum for some time now. And, frankly, while you have a small, VERY SMALL, point the whole thing smacks of either (i) a colossal put-on, or (ii) grasping at straws.

Time to drop it and move on.

It has been the 49ers offseason problem for 5 years now (after Norv left). There has been a fake competition that has resulted in less reps by the true starter to gain an advantage to build chemistry and make adjustments with his starters around him. It has been THE most pointed out mistake by Nolan/Singletary. Chemistry has been THE biggest issue with our offense for years now.

And this coach is doing the same thing. Why can't he be called out for it? This absolutely doesn't concern you guys? THE biggest issue the coaches who failed to improve upon is the same thing this guy is doing.

Personally, Alex should have been the starter from Day 1. No need to put a developmental rookie in a bad situation like was done last week. Why not let the starting offense try and work it out with their QB? I'm sure they would have improved their blocking but the rookie was put in who probably couldn't settle the OL down if his life depended on it.
Originally posted by Joecool:
It has been the 49ers offseason problem for 5 years now (after Norv left). There has been a fake competition that has resulted in less reps by the true starter to gain an advantage to build chemistry and make adjustments with his starters around him. It has been THE most pointed out mistake by Nolan/Singletary. Chemistry has been THE biggest issue with our offense for years now.

And this coach is doing the same thing. Why can't he be called out for it? This absolutely doesn't concern you guys? THE biggest issue the coaches who failed to improve upon is the same thing this guy is doing.

Personally, Alex should have been the starter from Day 1. No need to put a developmental rookie in a bad situation like was done last week. Why not let the starting offense try and work it out with their QB? I'm sure they would have improved their blocking but the rookie was put in who probably couldn't settle the OL down if his life depended on it.

Why does everyone even consider it a competition? Ever since the New Orleans game, Alex has pretty much gotten the entire practice reps with the first team with Kaepernick was with the seconds. Yes Kaepernick has gotten some time with the ones against the Texans, but that was not for competition for starter. I believe that was to see if he could be a decent backup. There is zero competition. Alex is the starter, Harbaugh knows it as does the team.
Originally posted by Joecool:
It has been the 49ers offseason problem for 5 years now (after Norv left). There has been a fake competition that has resulted in less reps by the true starter to gain an advantage to build chemistry and make adjustments with his starters around him. It has been THE most pointed out mistake by Nolan/Singletary. Chemistry has been THE biggest issue with our offense for years now.

And this coach is doing the same thing. Why can't he be called out for it? This absolutely doesn't concern you guys? THE biggest issue the coaches who failed to improve upon is the same thing this guy is doing.

Personally, Alex should have been the starter from Day 1. No need to put a developmental rookie in a bad situation like was done last week. Why not let the starting offense try and work it out with their QB? I'm sure they would have improved their blocking but the rookie was put in who probably couldn't settle the OL down if his life depended on it.

Yes, Harbaugh did explain his planned rotation prior to the game... and he stuck to it. You ask why did he stick with it? Well, there could be multiple reasons.

1. He already trusts what Alex can do when reg. season week 1 comes.
2. He saw no reason to leave his only winning chance at QB in the game when the OL didn't even show up to block.
3. He doesn't panic and alter his plan just because things go ugly in a pre-season game.

It's your right as a forum fan to question every little decision as if YOU know better... but you must recognize... it gets annoying as hell.
Originally posted by hohbie:
Originally posted by Joecool:
It has been the 49ers offseason problem for 5 years now (after Norv left). There has been a fake competition that has resulted in less reps by the true starter to gain an advantage to build chemistry and make adjustments with his starters around him. It has been THE most pointed out mistake by Nolan/Singletary. Chemistry has been THE biggest issue with our offense for years now.

And this coach is doing the same thing. Why can't he be called out for it? This absolutely doesn't concern you guys? THE biggest issue the coaches who failed to improve upon is the same thing this guy is doing.

Personally, Alex should have been the starter from Day 1. No need to put a developmental rookie in a bad situation like was done last week. Why not let the starting offense try and work it out with their QB? I'm sure they would have improved their blocking but the rookie was put in who probably couldn't settle the OL down if his life depended on it.

Why does everyone even consider it a competition? Ever since the New Orleans game, Alex has pretty much gotten the entire practice reps with the first team with Kaepernick was with the seconds. Yes Kaepernick has gotten some time with the ones against the Texans, but that was not for competition for starter. I believe that was to see if he could be a decent backup. There is zero competition. Alex is the starter, Harbaugh knows it as does the team.

I know. But that's the exact same thing the failure coaches in the past did and it hurt the offense's chemistry. Harbaugh's actions during game 3 say it is a competition. Colin playing with starters taking away from Alex's time to gel with the offense is not needed.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
It has been the 49ers offseason problem for 5 years now (after Norv left). There has been a fake competition that has resulted in less reps by the true starter to gain an advantage to build chemistry and make adjustments with his starters around him. It has been THE most pointed out mistake by Nolan/Singletary. Chemistry has been THE biggest issue with our offense for years now.

And this coach is doing the same thing. Why can't he be called out for it? This absolutely doesn't concern you guys? THE biggest issue the coaches who failed to improve upon is the same thing this guy is doing.

Personally, Alex should have been the starter from Day 1. No need to put a developmental rookie in a bad situation like was done last week. Why not let the starting offense try and work it out with their QB? I'm sure they would have improved their blocking but the rookie was put in who probably couldn't settle the OL down if his life depended on it.

Yes, Harbaugh did explain his planned rotation prior to the game... and he stuck to it. You ask why did he stick with it? Well, there could be multiple reasons.

1. He already trusts what Alex can do when reg. season week 1 comes.
2. He saw no reason to leave his only winning chance at QB in the game when the OL didn't even show up to block.
3. He doesn't panic and alter his plan just because things go ugly in a pre-season game.

It's your right as a forum fan to question every little decision as if YOU know better... but you must recognize... it gets annoying as hell.
Point 1 is very questionable. He has very little idea how Alex will apply the offense when live bullets are being fired. So far, it has been inconsistent.
Point 2 has nothing to do with the pressure as he already made his decision prior to the game. I'm question his decision prior to the game.
Point 3 doesn't make it a smarter move. Singletary never altered his game plan either.

I'm judging by his decision with how he has handled the QB position, especially Alex. So far, he has done the same things Singletary and Nolan have done. Does that mean Singletary and Nolan knew something we didn't and they actually knew what they were doing? Why is it OK that Harbaugh does it but not OK that the other two did it?

What's annoying as hell is that you guys give this guy a pass but he hasn't done anything different than his predecessors.

His coaches also appear as though they can't evaluate the Center position. Why do they need to switch them in game reps to evaluate them if they know how to evaluate the QB without game reps?

Look forward to a disjointed offense. A more creative one, but it will not have chemistry.
Originally posted by Joecool:
I know. But that's the exact same thing the failure coaches in the past did and it hurt the offense's chemistry. Harbaugh's actions during game 3 say it is a competition. Colin playing with starters taking away from Alex's time to gel with the offense is not needed.

Joecool you can't base Nolan & Sing's failures on their pre-season strategy, chemistry or not they just sucked as a staff, period.

I think JH knows this whole year will be competition, it's a transition year where he won't fully know who is who until the 2012 season. And if the season tanks, he'll have his chance at Luck. Win / Win for JH.