There are 86 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Advantage? Under Center or Shotgun?

harbaugh is playing to the strengths of what hes got. they used shotgun a lot at stanford too. hes not trying to drive a square peg into a round hole like the previous coaches weve had. he likes athletic guys, the athletic guys he brought in have backgrounds in shotgun formations so the logical thing is to work that into the playbook. manning, brees and brady run shotgun "college style" formations all the time and theyre doing just fine
Alex Smith's passer rating under shotgun. 84.4, 79.9
Alex Smith's passer rating under center. 83.8, 79.3

A little more accurate completing 62% of his passes compared to 60 under center, but people do overrate the Alex Smith is so much better under Shotgun.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Alex Smith's passer rating under shotgun. 84.4, 79.9
Alex Smith's passer rating under center. 83.8, 79.3

A little more accurate completing 62% of his passes compared to 60 under center, but people do overrate the Alex Smith is so much better under Shotgun.

Excellent info... what are you, a stat geek or something?

( completely goofing with you, don't take offense )

Anyway, I haven't given this much thought or expect it, but I think it would be interesting to see some Pistol offense installed.




Not because of Kaepernick exactly. Just because I think Alex + Kap would benefit from the extra distance to view the field and Gore would still be in an excellent position to use his vision on runs. Let's face it... anytime we keep Norris off the field, it is a benefit for us.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Alex Smith's passer rating under shotgun. 84.4, 79.9
Alex Smith's passer rating under center. 83.8, 79.3

A little more accurate completing 62% of his passes compared to 60 under center, but people do overrate the Alex Smith is so much better under Shotgun.

Excellent info... what are you, a stat geek or something?

( completely goofing with you, don't take offense )

Anyway, I haven't given this much thought or expect it, but I think it would be interesting to see some Pistol offense installed.




Not because of Kaepernick exactly. Just because I think Alex + Kap would benefit from the extra distance to view the field and Gore would still be in an excellent position to use his vision on runs. Let's face it... anytime we keep Norris off the field, it is a benefit for us.

I had a feeling you'd make this post.

I've seen Detroit run the piston, not sure if it's going to work in the NFL. They had very little success with it averaging 1 yard per carry, and a 45 passing rating. It's an intriguing idea if you can attach a run game with it, but until that time it's just a less successful version of the Shotgun.
  • Chico
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,130
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Much harder to run the football under the Shotgun. Obviously there's a place for the Shotgun, probally going to pass out of it 50% of the time, but in I really think you have to balance in order to maximize success.

but...why? you're one step ahead and can run a draw in the shotgun...The QB, if he has good vision, should be able to see the defense better...ala Peyton Manning
I'm a silly wanker.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Under Center is always the advantage and a must for running the WCO. Outta the Shotgun your offense becomes one-dimensional.

I understand the timing issue. However, I remember watching a show where Walsh had contemplated using shotgun with Joe. But, Joe didn't like it.... Does anyone else remember that show?
So I would think it is possible to use in a WCO. Things like spacing and routs would have to be different but the concepts could still work.
The Niners were the first to introduce the shotgun formation late 50s early 60s. They used a single wing formation which was a strong powerful running game. Also out of that formation u could run the buck-latteral series which is a lot of fun to watch. Which is better I dont really know seems to me play to the players strenght.
There is no advantage to either if you cant run the ball. but as the evolution of football continues so will the shotgun and the teams ability to run out of that formation. Hell even the version of the West coast that bill ran would not be effective now a days.
Something to keep in mind regarding the shotgun. Although it doesn't allow for the same level of fluidity and timing as under center, it does allow better vision of the field (post snap). The 2007 New England Patriots definitely proved that the shotgun formation can be used to great effectiveness. They had one of the most successful offensive seasons in the history of the NFL and they did it while running the majority of their passing plays out of the shotgun. The shotgun formation can be devastating when executed properly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Colin was at Nevada didn't he do some modified pass drops? I know that he didn't take snaps from center, but with the pistol, I know he didn't line up as deep as he would have under a traditional shot gun formation. I seem to recall some pass drops out of that formation. Maybe it's a non issue, even if he did I'm sure it still is different doing it through the pistol than the WCO, so I'm sure there still is an adjustment period. I'm not suggesting we go to the pistol, just that maybe it will speed up his transition to dropping back in the pros.

Another thing I've been wondering about Colin. I read reports that he struggles with his touch passes. Now maybe that's because he is young, and either trusts his arm too much or the fact that the system just isn't second nature to him yet. Either way, am I correct in thinking that is part of the game that can be corrected by coaching? Thanks.
[ Edited by GorefullBore on Aug 7, 2011 at 8:09 PM ]
  • Chico
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,130
Thanks everyone for your comments/input. I guess i don't really know why i hear so many reports that the shotgun/pistol/redgun/whatever you call it these days won't work in the nfl these days when to me..."football is football" and as long as you move the ball, it's all that matters.

what about the option, the wishbone...those should work too, shouldn't they?
when Jerry Rice and Joe Montana talked about the differences they said that precision was mandatory in WCO, I'm assuming with the spread because the QB gets a better view of the field it doesn't require good timing,precision and good instincts as much. Although it seems the NFL is better at adjusting to covering the spread, so spread QBs are a bigger risk when getting drafted. It can take a few years for spread QBs to transition to pro style offenses because of the speed of the game in the NFL, they don't learn about reading defenses,timing and precision. Smith is a perfect example of why spread QBs are a huge risk, he needs at least a year of learning a pro system to get comfortable in it however the intangibles necessary are also missing from him,he can't defenses(which is necessary for WCO), and isn't accurate enough for the WCO.

I'd say being being under center is more advantageous because the offense won't be as predictable as the spread and the schemes won't be as gimmicky. Under center the QB will pick up better instincts and other skills you won't learn or need in the spread.
Originally posted by Chico:
Thanks everyone for your comments/input. I guess i don't really know why i hear so many reports that the shotgun/pistol/redgun/whatever you call it these days won't work in the nfl these days when to me..."football is football" and as long as you move the ball, it's all that matters.

what about the option, the wishbone...those should work too, shouldn't they?

You don't want your QB taking lots of shots from NFL defenders... so I would quickly throw out the Option offense. The Wishbone, I'm shocked, was not used by Singletary. He was so intent on mindlessly pounding the ball, lolz. The NFL has gone pass friendly, and I can't see teams using the wishbone in the NFL.

Now the Pistol? I see zero reasons as to why that would fail in the NFL. Best of both worlds... QBs can read the field better.. RB still in a position to run or block to either side.... still got your TE in there.... slot receiver added instead of FB...
If you run a conventional system and the team fails, then the players get blamed. If you try something different and it fails, the coach gets blamed, along with management and ultimately the owner.

The WCO would have been blamed if the Niners had mediocre players and modest success and Walsh would have been replaced by a Singletary type coach.

That's why coaches all pretty much don't rock the boat and copy each other. The WCO was adopted by others after it was proven to work. The single wing was run for a hundred years until somebody came up with the T formation and proved it worked.