Keep Manny Lawson or part ways?

Guarantee we let him go and New England scoops him up and Boom...he's a 10+ sac a year guy.

Manusky hated blitzing.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Manny may have a few issues with management of the past for not offering him a long-term contract.... but by all accounts, he really seems to love his teammates and SF.

So... maybe just maybe he will accept a hometown discount to stay. He has been living off the remains of his rookie contract. Probably under a mil a year, if I recall correctly. Maybe he will be fine with taking a discount... 4 years, 5 mil per.... give him a friendly upfront signing bonus.

Probably wishful thinking...

I really wish one of the Matts would contact Lawson just to see where his head is at. I know the team stance, but I'm curious if/how bitter Lawson is about being taken out of the line up on 3rd downs. I'm also curious how the new coaching staff (Fangio) view his skill set.

I don't recall the source right now, but I do recall someone during the middle of the season saying that Lawson was very upset with management that he did not even get an audience about an extension.

I have said this before, but, though Lawson would be terrific in a 4-3, to lose his speed at OLB would hurt the team. This team is STILL slow by NFL playoff standards. I won't go into the offense but the defense is definitely lacking in overall speed despite having Willis in the middle. That will only get worse if Lawson decides to leave.

The 49ers were burned repeatedly last year by fast WRs and quick, speedy backs on screen plays where they could isolate against the LB opposite Lawson (Haralson, Brooks, Spikes). Consequently, to lose the fastest OLB over the fact he was miscast by management over the need for a pass rusher, would be a mistake. If Baalke did his job in identifying Aldon Smith as the answer at pass rush, then Lawson should be a solid contributor, and if used properly, could still have a very good year and career here.

Having said all that, I go back to the report Manny is upset with management and will leave when FA opens. I don't like it but that is what I expect to happen.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, there is a lot to consider here but in the end, it's whether or not he is going to be a good fit and become the playmaker we have been lacking at the OLB for a long time. The same can be said for everyone on this team. Granted, a great OC or DC will tailor their schemes to match thei current players strengths (within the system) but make no mistake about it, they both will be acquiring and developing players who fit perfectly into the WCO & 3-4 defense. Teams need role-players too but unfortunately for Manny, his primary skill set does not match a 3-4 defense; at least not at the OLB position. I've been saying for a long time that Manny is a solid player (not a "play-maker") but a good player who's skill set would be best served on a 4-3 team esp. a Tampa 2 where he could lose some weight and regain his speed.

SAM/WILL:
Coverage = a non-issue (the secondary will be responsible for this now); will just drop back in zones for a plit second or two to clog passing lanes (get INT's) and disguise blitzes on the other side
Sealing the edge = most LBers, even on our team, are very good at this not named Haralson (although he isn't as poor as ppl think)
Pass rushing = Critical, playmaking position. The position the oppostion game-plans around. Having one is good; having two is ideal but all four LBers will now be rushing.
Play-recognition = given the OLB's have been abused on screen passes and typically run themselves right out of plays (including RB's running to where they should have been), I'd say this is a big issue for concentration for 2011.

I figured Lawson would leave on his own and it appears both MM & MB agree. But who knows! Either way, as a fan of the 49ers, if he stays, I hope Fangio can get the playmaker out of him or he becomes a great role-player. If h leaves, I'll be pulling hard for Aldon Smith & Brooks, LaBoy (if resigned), Haralson, et al.

I agree. Manny is not a big "play-maker", but he does consistently make plays. He does occationally make plays that nobody else on the defense not name Willis could make. How many times did you see him use his big body to disrupt a passing lane or that shoe string grab or finger tip interception? Those were plays directly related to his size and speed. The guy has blocked punts/field goals and made interceptions probably 10 feet in the air. All that however is just an added bonus of his complete shutdown of the run game. I guess my personal feeling is that we will regress significantly if he leaves and thats the last I'll say about it.

P.S. Obviously, this all depends on how much money he wants. I think he is worth more than Goldson.

Yeah, I hear you but for a body of work for 5 years now, first round draft pic, he's been average at best IMHO and certainly, was used as a glorified role-player under Nolan/Singletary/Manusky for that very reason. He's another one of those guys who is a square peg-round hole guy. ot his fault though. I actually hope he does go to a 4-3 team and realize his potential (think he's been wanting to leave for over a year now anyhow). But first and foremost, I'm a Niner fan and want to see guys excel at the key playmaking positions like everyone else.

BTW: I hope not to be saying the same thing about Aldon Smith in five year!

I also think the big assumption Lawson-fans are making is that another OLB can not be just as effective, if not more effective in run support. Even a guy such a Brooks was stellar against the run and in 1/3 of the snaps, had more TFL and those snaps were in pass rushing situations where he was primarily focused on getting after the QB first and foremost. Coverage for the OLB's is a non-issue now (finally - something LaBoy complained about publically a lot last year).

So really, all you need is a guy who has the pass rushing skill set (various moves; can bull rush, quick outside speed, spin, defeat blockers, keep his eyes on QB at all times and most importantly, CLOSE), while "helping" seal the edges, add some TFL's d/t great play recognition and drop back in zone coverage.

Just as an example, Brooks has just as many INT's as Lawson, has contributed to more TO's esp. in key situations, provides much more of a consistent pass rush and is fantastic as setting the edge (fast too). We also have Smith now, Haralson may thrive with a refocus on primarily pass rushing again (like when he had 8 sacks off the bench), we know what LaBoy can do in a dumbed-down, vanilla 3-4 focused mostly on run stopping and coverage and have new up-and-coming guys not to mention we'll sign more in UDFA and perhaps, FA.

In short, we won't miss a beat esp. in the long-run and I even bet we'll be better once Smith/Brooks/Haralson settle in under Fangio's new scheme in the key playmaking positions. Thoughts? BTW: It's OK to agree to disagree. In the end, we both just want our Niners to be the best they can be!

Originally posted by dj43:

Having said all that, I go back to the report Manny is upset with management and will leave when FA opens. I don't like it but that is what I expect to happen.

Right. I remember he said he was disappointed that SF had not shown him a commitment. That he wanted to have a long-term deal to be assured of where he would be. Still, I never read anything that stated he demanded a specific amount of years or dollars. I interpreted it that he just wanted the security of his future over anything else... which of course, comes with $... but how much is the mystery.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Yeah, I hear you but for a body of work for 5 years now, first round draft pic, he's been average at best IMHO and certainly, was used as a glorified role-player under Nolan/Singletary/Manusky for that very reason.

Perhaps just devil's advocate here, but could it be the chicken or egg here? I think it would be hard to fully assess a player when we are so willing to agree that the scheme was flawed to begin with, and that players were poorly utilized.

Originally posted by NCommand:
He's another one of those guys who is a square peg-round hole guy. Not his fault though. I actually hope he does go to a 4-3 team and realize his potential. But first and foremost, I'm a Niner fan and want to see guys excel at the key playmaking positions like everyone else.

BTW: I hope not to be saying the same thing about Aldon Smith in five year!

Would agree with all of this.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I also think the big assumption Lawson-fans are making is that another OLB can not be just as effective, if not more effective in run support. Even a guy such a Brooks was stellar against the run and in 1/3 of the snaps, had more TFL and those snaps were in pass rushing situations where he was primarily focused on getting after the QB first and foremost.

Now this part, I am apprehensive about. If we do require Sopoaga to move to NT, then having Ray at LDE makes losing Manny a potentially significant problem when considering the opposing run game. Soap and Manny were a HUGE part of what made us successful vs the strong-side run. Brooks isn't an awful run stopper, but so far, has not really shown the discipline for it. LaBoy and Haralson were pretty bad at run support. Gibson is pretty undersized (still?) and isn't likely to be the answer.

Originally posted by NCommand:

So really, all you need is a guy who has the pass rushing skill set (various moves; can bull rush, quick outside speed, spin, defeat blockers, keep his eyes on QB at all times and most importantly, CLOSE), while "helping" seal the edges, add some TFL's d/t great play recognition and drop back in zone coverage.

I hope you are not minimizing how hard it truly is to acquire such a complete + balanced defender?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Just as an example, Brooks has just as many INT's as Lawson, has contributed to more TO's esp. in key situations, provides much more of a consistent pass rush and is fantastic as setting the edge (fast too). We also have Smith now, Haralson may thrive with a refocus on primarily pass rushing again (like when he had 8 sacks off the bench), we know what LaBoy can do in a dumbed-down, vanilla 3-4 focused mostly on run stopping and coverage and have new up-and-coming guys not to mention we'll sign more in UDFA and perhaps, FA.

You would be putting a lot of faith in the other guys... assuming they are still to be on the roster and assuming we acquire someone else of consequence.

Originally posted by NCommand:

In short, we won't miss a beat esp. in the long-run and I even bet we'll be better once Smith/Brooks/Haralson settle in under Fangio's new scheme in the key playmaking positions.

I wouldn't make that bet, but you could always turn out right.

Originally posted by NCommand:

BTW: It's OK to agree to disagree. In the end, we both just want our Niners to be the best they can be!

Hell yes to this... wish we could all remember this and not turn things personal!

Originally posted by Sjceruti:
Guarantee we let him go and New England scoops him up and Boom...he's a 10+ sac a year guy.

Manusky hated blitzing.

If TBC can do it, so can Manny.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Now this part, I am apprehensive about. If we do require Sopoaga to move to NT, then having Ray at LDE makes losing Manny a potentially significant problem when considering the opposing run game. Soap and Manny were a HUGE part of what made us successful vs the strong-side run. Brooks isn't an awful run stopper, but so far, has not really shown the discipline for it. LaBoy and Haralson were pretty bad at run support. Gibson is pretty undersized (still?) and isn't likely to be the answer.

This is a very good point and certainly something I was NOT happy with regarding our draft (not drafting a two-gap NT) or more depth at the DE positions. That said, our d-line coach is one of the very best and he'll get the most out of who we have. But the philosophy AND scheme "should" change for the better here.

Brooks actually, IMHO was a very good run stopper and certainly diagmosed plays very well tearing into the backfield for TFL's and was rarely fooled on a screen pass. WHEN he played, he made plays, no doubt.

I think the issue with Brooks was that he knew he wouldn't get the FT starts under a vanilla scheme under Manusky. I think if he is allowed to start and make a mistake here and there (like a Taylor Mays or Aldon Smith) and still get the backing, he'll need that for confidence. But him starting is a minimal risk b/c no linebacker is more experienced in the 3-4 than Brooks at all four LB positions. The "risk" will be minimal at best. I think he just needs a coaching staff to back him and support him and then the extra motivation and confidence will be there. Turn him loose!!

Gibson is basically the same size as Brooks & Smith (260+). Haralson/LaBoy would be the smallest of the bunch at 245, 255 respectively.

But back to your point, I agree, it is a concern but turnng your d-line and LBers loose and playing in the oppositions backfield for a change could result in more plays, TO's, stops on 3rd downs and the secondary looks 100% better as well. Play recognition through scheme is going to be critical but we have a veteran defense here. They just need to play disciplined as a team and the secondary and LBers will have to play tighter and shut down those counter-screens, something we were abused on even on the strong side.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
I hope you are not minimizing how hard it truly is to acquire such a complete + balanced defender?

Certainly not...not an easy thing to find but FINALLY hearing a GM who truly understands the skill-set of the OLB at THE play-making position is very encouraging. Baalke drafted a guy he feels possesses all of these skills and it will be up to our coaching staff to scheme and use him and develop him properly. Same for all four of the LBers!

Originally posted by oldman9er:
You would be putting a lot of faith in the other guys... assuming they are still to be on the roster and assuming we acquire someone else of consequence.

Over the years, we have had mny players relegated to "role players" who have burned to get a chance at starting and developing. No doubt, we "may" take a step back but then again, sometimes with a philosophical change and new skill sets required, I can see many of these guys now becoming starters and "fitting" better, making our entir defense better. But, it will take either a half-year or full year. By the end of 2011 for both the WCO & 3-4, we'll truly have our work cut out for us and that is a good thing!

Originally posted by oldman9er:
I wouldn't make that bet, but you could always turn out right.

Hey, why not...I'll pull a Harbaugh here and put my neck on the line. WE WILL NOT MISS A BEAT WHEN LAWSON LEAVES. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it and you can rub it in as much as you like. LOL

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Hell yes to this... wish we could all remember this and not turn things personal!

I've always liked differing opinions..it forces you to look at the other side and see the bigger picture. This makes all of us more educated Niner fans! Always appreciate the feedback!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, there is a lot to consider here but in the end, it's whether or not he is going to be a good fit and become the playmaker we have been lacking at the OLB for a long time. The same can be said for everyone on this team. Granted, a great OC or DC will tailor their schemes to match thei current players strengths (within the system) but make no mistake about it, they both will be acquiring and developing players who fit perfectly into the WCO & 3-4 defense. Teams need role-players too but unfortunately for Manny, his primary skill set does not match a 3-4 defense; at least not at the OLB position. I've been saying for a long time that Manny is a solid player (not a "play-maker") but a good player who's skill set would be best served on a 4-3 team esp. a Tampa 2 where he could lose some weight and regain his speed.

SAM/WILL:
Coverage = a non-issue (the secondary will be responsible for this now); will just drop back in zones for a plit second or two to clog passing lanes (get INT's) and disguise blitzes on the other side
Sealing the edge = most LBers, even on our team, are very good at this not named Haralson (although he isn't as poor as ppl think)
Pass rushing = Critical, playmaking position. The position the oppostion game-plans around. Having one is good; having two is ideal but all four LBers will now be rushing.
Play-recognition = given the OLB's have been abused on screen passes and typically run themselves right out of plays (including RB's running to where they should have been), I'd say this is a big issue for concentration for 2011.

I figured Lawson would leave on his own and it appears both MM & MB agree. But who knows! Either way, as a fan of the 49ers, if he stays, I hope Fangio can get the playmaker out of him or he becomes a great role-player. If h leaves, I'll be pulling hard for Aldon Smith & Brooks, LaBoy (if resigned), Haralson, et al.

I agree. Manny is not a big "play-maker", but he does consistently make plays. He does occationally make plays that nobody else on the defense not name Willis could make. How many times did you see him use his big body to disrupt a passing lane or that shoe string grab or finger tip interception? Those were plays directly related to his size and speed. The guy has blocked punts/field goals and made interceptions probably 10 feet in the air. All that however is just an added bonus of his complete shutdown of the run game. I guess my personal feeling is that we will regress significantly if he leaves and thats the last I'll say about it.

P.S. Obviously, this all depends on how much money he wants. I think he is worth more than Goldson.

Yeah, I hear you but for a body of work for 5 years now, first round draft pic, he's been average at best IMHO and certainly, was used as a glorified role-player under Nolan/Singletary/Manusky for that very reason. He's another one of those guys who is a square peg-round hole guy. ot his fault though. I actually hope he does go to a 4-3 team and realize his potential (think he's been wanting to leave for over a year now anyhow). But first and foremost, I'm a Niner fan and want to see guys excel at the key playmaking positions like everyone else.

BTW: I hope not to be saying the same thing about Aldon Smith in five year!

I also think the big assumption Lawson-fans are making is that another OLB can not be just as effective, if not more effective in run support. Even a guy such a Brooks was stellar against the run and in 1/3 of the snaps, had more TFL and those snaps were in pass rushing situations where he was primarily focused on getting after the QB first and foremost. Coverage for the OLB's is a non-issue now (finally - something LaBoy complained about publically a lot last year).

So really, all you need is a guy who has the pass rushing skill set (various moves; can bull rush, quick outside speed, spin, defeat blockers, keep his eyes on QB at all times and most importantly, CLOSE), while "helping" seal the edges, add some TFL's d/t great play recognition and drop back in zone coverage.

Just as an example, Brooks has just as many INT's as Lawson, has contributed to more TO's esp. in key situations, provides much more of a consistent pass rush and is fantastic as setting the edge (fast too). We also have Smith now, Haralson may thrive with a refocus on primarily pass rushing again (like when he had 8 sacks off the bench), we know what LaBoy can do in a dumbed-down, vanilla 3-4 focused mostly on run stopping and coverage and have new up-and-coming guys not to mention we'll sign more in UDFA and perhaps, FA.

In short, we won't miss a beat esp. in the long-run and I even bet we'll be better once Smith/Brooks/Haralson settle in under Fangio's new scheme in the key playmaking positions. Thoughts? BTW: It's OK to agree to disagree. In the end, we both just want our Niners to be the best they can be!

One thing I never understood about your position NC; Brooks and Lawson have been in the league for almost the exact same amount of time. Brooks was actually booted off of a very crappy team (Bengals) and has not been able to convince a brain dead coaching staff that he is good enough to be a full time starter in two years. Outside of one amazing game against AZ, the guy is a non-factor. Is it possible you are bias because Lawson was a 1st round pick and Brooks was a 3rd in the supplemental draft? I dont think Manny is worth a 1st, but if the draft was done over, I could see a team taking him in the second and at the latest 3rd. Brooks on the other hand probably goes in the 4th or 5th.

split up, like your butt cheeks.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
One thing I never understood about your position NC; Brooks and Lawson have been in the league for almost the exact same amount of time. Brooks was actually booted off of a very crappy team (Bengals) and has not been able to convince a brain dead coaching staff that he is good enough to be a full time starter in two years. Outside of one amazing game against AZ, the guy is a non-factor. Is it possible you are bias because Lawson was a 1st round pick and Brooks was a 3rd in the supplemental draft? I dont think Manny is worth a 1st, but if the draft was done over, I could see a team taking him in the second and at the latest 3rd. Brooks on the other hand probably goes in the 4th or 5th.

It's a fair question! It’s hard to compare apples-to-oranges scenarios but my positions comes from regularly focusing on every snap of all four+ of our LBers over the years and looking at the quality of plays made, opportunities, big plays, skill sets, etc.

While I agree we had one of the most incompetent coaching staffs over the past 5+ years, Manusky DID play to Lawson's skill-set. Without a doubt, esp. after five years, Manny is not a pass rusher and certainly is not a guy teams game-plan around. He’s a good run defender and has the ability to play in coverage well. I could literally break down his deeper skill-set if you want and grade him, if you will. It’s just my opinion but it certainly comes from objectively reviewing him over five years now. Manny has been given every opportunity to be the play-making, game-changing & pass rushing OLB we wanted esp. early in his career when he was first made a WILL. But over the years it was VERY evident the guy is easily blocked out one-on-one in pass rushing situations and consequently his role continued to diminish over the years to what it is now. But make no mistake about it, Manny had more than enough chances to shine.

On the other hand, Brooks and others have never been truly given the same opportunity to grow/develop as starters despite their raw skill set b/c it didn’t match the vanilla scheme Nolan/Singletary/Manusky subscribed too. When Brooks HAS been allowed to start, he played very well. His skill-set is limitless, no doubt and a VERY good fit for what this 3-4 requires. Imagine him on Pittsburgh…looking at this scenario, with Brooks, you can “see” him exploding but with Lawson, you can still picture him getting stone-walled every time he tried to get in the backfield. That’s the difference IMHO…they both just have different skill-sets and one was given the chances under the wrong defense and the other has yet to be given the same chance under the (now) right defense.

It should be interesting to see how it all plays out, my friend!

Originally posted by dtmoney49er:
I think we will be making a mistake by letting him go without a chance in Jim's system, this may be another Julian Peterson type of situation. Even though Julian was better but i see us regretting it some day if we cut him.

BTW: This is a flawed scenario b/c we are not going to cut an OLB who's signed long-termed and for a reasonable amount.

Julian was actually a poor pass-rusher under the 3-4 and it wasn't until he went to Seattle where he had four active d-linemen in front of him AND highlighted in Seattle's defense (e.g. freed up) that he got back to his original form. In our defense under Manusky, Willis is that guy who's highlighted naturally. So if Manny goes to a 4-3 team and under these same conditions, then it's possible he'll have more success like Peterson did in Seattle. Either way, I feel Manny will be more successful on a 4-3 team.

Manny is history. Some 4-3 team is going to sign him to be their starting SLB and he will make bank.

Micheal Robinson interviews Manny Lawson. He talks about being a FA, 49ers picking Aldon Smith and More check it out.

(Interview starts at 7:10)

Originally posted by FriscoFitted:
Micheal Robinson interviews Manny Lawson. He talks about being a FA, 49ers picking Aldon Smith and More check it out.

(Interview starts at 7:10)

He made it very clear from the start that he wasn't with the San Francisco 49ers "you can't say with them" didn't he? Look at his body language - looks down when Robinson asks about Aldon; smiles. Interesting!!! "We're getting old...somebody leaving!" I'm pretty sure it's him. Ya think?

Thanks for the vid!

Did also enjoy the vid... though I didn't find the Manny part very revealing. I think he is probably hurt that he didn't get a long-term deal. I think he wants to stay and be with these particular team mates. Liked what he said about Alex ( ).

We'll see what happens. Wish I was on the inside to know whether we ever offered Manny a contract and what size it was. We just don't know...