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How good is the 49ers Defense?

Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.

I'm going to be so pisssed if he goes to another team and tears it up...
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.

I'm going to be so pisssed if he goes to another team and tears it up...

Tear it up how? I could see him turning into a tackling machine for a 4-3 defense, but I don't see him becoming a sack master for any 3-4 team, unless they already have a beast on the other side, and the scheme allows him to come free. He just hasn't shown the ability to win in one-on-one pass rush situations.
We have a very good defense for having a terrible secondary, a lack of a pass-rusher, and an anemic offensive unit. It just goes to show how good Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes, and Justin Smith are when those three carry the entire defense.

With an offense that can control the clock, we can be a top 10 defense.

But let's not kid ourselves. By no means are we an elite, top 5 defense. We're one of the best at stopping the run, but we can't stop the pass. Our secondary can't cover and we don't get any pressure on opposing quarterbacks. When you don't have either, we'll get torched by offenses every week. I'm actually surprised that we're as good as we are, when you consider that fatal flaw.
Originally posted by Wubbie:
We have a very good defense for having a terrible secondary, a lack of a pass-rusher, and an anemic offensive unit. It just goes to show how good Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes, and Justin Smith are when those three carry the entire defense.

With an offense that can control the clock, we can be a top 10 defense.

But let's not kid ourselves. By no means are we an elite, top 5 defense. We're one of the best at stopping the run, but we can't stop the pass. Our secondary can't cover and we don't get any pressure on opposing quarterbacks. When you don't have either, we'll get torched by offenses every week. I'm actually surprised that we're as good as we are, when you consider that fatal flaw.

I'm surprised too. LOL. We should be worse given our horrific inability to stop the pass.
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.

I'm going to be so pisssed if he goes to another team and tears it up...

Tear it up how? I could see him turning into a tackling machine for a 4-3 defense, but I don't see him becoming a sack master for any 3-4 team, unless they already have a beast on the other side, and the scheme allows him to come free. He just hasn't shown the ability to win in one-on-one pass rush situations.

Good point! I kind of thought the same thing after I posted. I guess if he goes to another team that does really well, he will probably get the recogintion he deserves which is ultimately Manny being Manny. I could see him becoming a double diget sack guy though. Manny is in the backfield alot, but he just doesn't get the sack. If he had someone pushing the QB to his side I think he is a 10 plus sack guy. Too often teams double team JSmith and there is no pressure from the other side to sandwich the qb. Too bad, I really would like to see him paired with Aldon Smith...
[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jul 14, 2011 at 7:03 AM ]
Originally posted by Wubbie:
We have a very good defense for having a terrible secondary, a lack of a pass-rusher, and an anemic offensive unit. It just goes to show how good Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes, and Justin Smith are when those three carry the entire defense.

With an offense that can control the clock, we can be a top 10 defense.

But let's not kid ourselves. By no means are we an elite, top 5 defense. We're one of the best at stopping the run, but we can't stop the pass. Our secondary can't cover and we don't get any pressure on opposing quarterbacks. When you don't have either, we'll get torched by offenses every week. I'm actually surprised that we're as good as we are, when you consider that fatal flaw.

Its because, even though our secondary is mediocre, willis, lawson and even takeo are abouve average in pass-defense and carry this team. Willis will get burned more in coverage with Manny not complimenting him.

Sorry.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.

I'm going to be so pisssed if he goes to another team and tears it up...

Tear it up how? I could see him turning into a tackling machine for a 4-3 defense, but I don't see him becoming a sack master for any 3-4 team, unless they already have a beast on the other side, and the scheme allows him to come free. He just hasn't shown the ability to win in one-on-one pass rush situations.

Good point! I kind of thought the same thing after I posted. I guess if he goes to another team that does really well, he will probably get the recogintion he deserves which is ultimately Manny being Manny. I could see him becoming a double diget sack guy though. Manny is in the backfield alot, but he just doesn't get the sack. If he had someone pushing the QB to his side I think he is a 10 plus sack guy. Too often teams double team JSmith and there is no pressure from the other side to sandwich the qb. Too bad, I really would like to see him paired with Aldon Smith...

Yeah, I def prefer him to Parys, but most of the time I see Manny pressuring the QB, he is beating an RB or TE.
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.

I'm going to be so pisssed if he goes to another team and tears it up...

Tear it up how? I could see him turning into a tackling machine for a 4-3 defense, but I don't see him becoming a sack master for any 3-4 team, unless they already have a beast on the other side, and the scheme allows him to come free. He just hasn't shown the ability to win in one-on-one pass rush situations.

Good point! I kind of thought the same thing after I posted. I guess if he goes to another team that does really well, he will probably get the recogintion he deserves which is ultimately Manny being Manny. I could see him becoming a double diget sack guy though. Manny is in the backfield alot, but he just doesn't get the sack. If he had someone pushing the QB to his side I think he is a 10 plus sack guy. Too often teams double team JSmith and there is no pressure from the other side to sandwich the qb. Too bad, I really would like to see him paired with Aldon Smith...

Yeah, I def prefer him to Parys, but most of the time I see Manny pressuring the QB, he is beating an RB or TE.

I'd prefer Manny in a Nolan/Manusky 3-4, 4-3 or even Cover 2 but in Fangio's defense, the focus will be on the pass rush in route to stopping the run. If/when Manny chooses to leave (perhaps, prompted by the FO not offering him a contract or of Manny's own choosing), the pass rushers left on this team who will take center-focus will be: Aldon Smith, Brooks, Haralson (maybe LaBoy) and newcomers such as Gibson, Miller or other UDFA's with potential. The goal will be to develop two of these guys into FT starters.

Aldon Smith (WILL) - I think this guy will start right out of the gate but share time with Brooks/Haralson to keep him fresh while he grows into a FT starter.
LaBoy - is a guy who used to be a starter in a like-defensive scheme and I'm guessing he will be rsigned
Brooks - should get every opportunity to become a FT starter and no longer a predictable 3rd down pass rushing specialist at SAM
Haralson (either as a starter or rotating pass rusher where he shined the most) - not high on BUT he could be more than serviceable in a better scheme and effective pass rush from the rest of the front 6. He is proven off the bench at least not to mention he's signed long term so he isn't going anywhere (his contract may even help reach the "floor.")

Both the SAM/WILL will be interchangeable in Fangio's scheme.

While Aldon is an unknown, I do see plenty of upside in Brooks, LaBoy and even Thaddeus Gibson as good "fits" in Fangio's system (no more square pegs/round hole-players). Brooks has the most complete package right now, no doubt and Aldon may have the most upside. LaBoy is a very good pass rusher but is suspect against the run and that may be his downfall. Gibson has a load of potential and we'll see who else Fangio picks up in the UDFA class or who else is currently on the roster (e.g. Bruce Miller?).

It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out, no doubt!
[ Edited by NCommand on Jul 14, 2011 at 11:14 AM ]
We have the talent to be a top 5 def. ummm.........15 years ago.....in todays NFL it is a pass first league....and we have no pass rush and a slow secondary....
Originally posted by Hitman49:
We have the talent to be a top 5 def. ummm.........15 years ago.....in todays NFL it is a pass first league....and we have no pass rush and a slow secondary....

You are dead on...I feel our "stellar defense against the run" is a little over-inflated. Franklin is a one-gap NT and we are terrible in short yardage plays and if a team is inside our 10, you can almost guarantee a running TD every time.

If I was the opposition, the last thing I'd want is Willis in the box and in my backfield making plays. It's a no-brainer...you go pass the majority of the time and get Willis and the other LBers in coverage and with our prdeictable play-calling, poor secondary, lack of in-game adjustments, zero pass rush (except in predictable sets), etc. it's even MORE of a no-brainer.

So why run? Teams such as Tennessee and Tampa Bay who DID game-plan to run on us did so VERY effectively, IMHO.

So in all, no pass rush, can't get off the field, poor secondary, no changes in 5 years = average, at best defense.

We'll soon find out who fits the new defensive scheme in 2011. By the end of 2011, we should have our work cut out for us; and THAT is a good thing!
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hitman49:
We have the talent to be a top 5 def. ummm.........15 years ago.....in todays NFL it is a pass first league....and we have no pass rush and a slow secondary....

You are dead on...I feel our "stellar defense against the run" is a little over-inflated. Franklin is a one-gap NT and we are terrible in short yardage plays and if a team is inside our 10, you can almost guarantee a running TD every time.

If I was the opposition, the last thing I'd want is Willis in the box and in my backfield making plays. It's a no-brainer...you go pass the majority of the time and get Willis and the other LBers in coverage and with our prdeictable play-calling, poor secondary, lack of in-game adjustments, zero pass rush (except in predictable sets), etc. it's even MORE of a no-brainer.

So why run? Teams such as Tennessee and Tampa Bay who DID game-plan to run on us did so VERY effectively, IMHO.

So in all, no pass rush, can't get off the field, poor secondary, no changes in 5 years = average, at best defense.

We'll soon find out who fits the new defensive scheme in 2011. By the end of 2011, we should have our work cut out for us; and THAT is a good thing!

I agree with you regarding the run defense being over rated; but I must take some opposition against your assessment of Manny. Not only is he one of the best play makers against the run that this team has, he is also one of the top LB's in league in getting pressure on the QB on pass plays. You do not build championship teams by letting talent like his walk away; particularly given that your other side is not very strong and you are bringing in a rookie who has to learn the position. That is a terrible equation.
Top 10 with top 5 potential
Originally posted by Hitman49:
We have the talent to be a top 5 def. ummm.........15 years ago.....in todays NFL it is a pass first league....and we have no pass rush and a slow secondary....

This is what I have been saying, btw didnt Tampa Bay and Kansas CIty destroy our "awsome run d" last year? And the Eagles didnt really destroy us but Lesean Mccoy and even Kolb made us look extra slow all across the board on defense.

edit: I was just saying that our "run D" doesn't save us late in games against Qb's like Drew Brees. Where our secondary, and sometimes LB play get us killed.
[ Edited by unst4bl3 on Jul 14, 2011 at 7:55 PM ]
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by Wubbie:
We have a very good defense for having a terrible secondary, a lack of a pass-rusher, and an anemic offensive unit. It just goes to show how good Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes, and Justin Smith are when those three carry the entire defense.

With an offense that can control the clock, we can be a top 10 defense.

But let's not kid ourselves. By no means are we an elite, top 5 defense. We're one of the best at stopping the run, but we can't stop the pass. Our secondary can't cover and we don't get any pressure on opposing quarterbacks. When you don't have either, we'll get torched by offenses every week. I'm actually surprised that we're as good as we are, when you consider that fatal flaw.

I'm surprised too. LOL. We should be worse given our horrific inability to stop the pass.

True...thats a testament to our D AS A WHOLE.....im surprised with our lack of great pass rush or secondary play we ranked that high on D......A LOT BETTER than a team like dallas which is a joke....especially with Ratliff and ware terrorizing. Look at the bright side, some genius said Dallas D is not such a big mess yet ranked 31st...thats right 31st in the nfl. Now thats Denial.

If our D gets a cb in FA of a better pass rush top ten easily.
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