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Patrick Willis #23 on NFL countdown

Originally posted by Hitman49:
Originally posted by Janitor:


Here is how to make sense of it: Voted by the players = popularity contest.


i bet that was a woman driver that got that car stuck like that...lol
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Wasn't meant to be a low blow, just stating a fact. Like I said, it is just splitting hairs, but like I said, I would take Willis personally, not saying I wouldn't settle for Lewis and be happy. I like Willis' speed, he is faster than Lewis ever was. I am glad that Lewis cut himself off from the hood rats, as a public figure and the face of a franchise, he needs to be clean. He's a role model whether he likes it or not. Let's just agree that we are lucky to have Willis as the anchor to our defense.

If any of you guys have any doubt what Lewis means to the Ravens, please watch the Sunday episode (6/27/2011) of "Top 100 of 2011: Reactions." Nagat is live in studio, as he was the 17th pick. I thought Nagat was going to jizz himself talking about Lewis..

P.S. Lewis is in the top 10.

Lewis is still a top player in this league no doubt, but seeing some of these players ahead of Willis is a joke.
Originally posted by ninerfan21:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Wasn't meant to be a low blow, just stating a fact. Like I said, it is just splitting hairs, but like I said, I would take Willis personally, not saying I wouldn't settle for Lewis and be happy. I like Willis' speed, he is faster than Lewis ever was. I am glad that Lewis cut himself off from the hood rats, as a public figure and the face of a franchise, he needs to be clean. He's a role model whether he likes it or not. Let's just agree that we are lucky to have Willis as the anchor to our defense.

If any of you guys have any doubt what Lewis means to the Ravens, please watch the Sunday episode (6/27/2011) of "Top 100 of 2011: Reactions." Nagat is live in studio, as he was the 17th pick. I thought Nagat was going to jizz himself talking about Lewis..

P.S. Lewis is in the top 10.

Lewis is still a top player in this league no doubt, but seeing some of these players ahead of Willis is a joke.

If we where a playoff team he would probaly be as high as 15.
Again, throw ANY non-QB out there, and there is a damn good argument why Willis should be higher.
Originally posted by andes14:
Again, throw ANY non-QB out there, and there is a damn good argument why Willis should be higher.

Troy Palomalu?
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Again, throw ANY non-QB out there, and there is a damn good argument why Willis should be higher.

Troy Palomalu?

He has played twice as many seasons yet Willis has been selected a first team all pro the same amount of times. And the one season Willis wasn't a first team all pro, he was a 2nd. There have been FOUR years where Polamalu wasn't even a 2nd team all pro. He has also failed to make the pro-bowl twice (Willis has made it each year) and just for s**ts and giggles failed to win rookie of the year (Willis did). About the only thing Polamalu has on Willis is a DPOY award, and Willis would likely have at least 1 or 2 if he played on a team as good as the Steelers. When the niners improve and start making the playoffs, Willis will get DPOY recognition as well. Book it. Not to mention, as great as Polamalu is, he's got an OUTSTANDING defense around him that helps make his job easier which should also be taken into account.

Like I said there may be no other player ever (but especially active) that started 4 pro bowls and was selected a first team all pro 3 times (and 2nd team once) in his first 4 seasons.

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 28, 2011 at 13:22:39 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Again, throw ANY non-QB out there, and there is a damn good argument why Willis should be higher.

Troy Palomalu?

He has played twice as many seasons yet Willis has been selected a first team all pro the same amount of times. And the one season Willis wasn't a first team all pro, he was a 2nd. There have been FOUR years where Polamalu wasn't even a 2nd team all pro. He has also failed to make the pro-bowl twice (Willis has made it each year) and just for s**ts and giggles failed to win rookie of the year (Willis did). About the only thing Polamalu has on Willis is a DPOY award, and Willis would likely have at least 1 or 2 if he played on a team as good as the Steelers. When the niners improve and start making the playoffs, Willis will get DPOY recognition as well. Book it. Not to mention, as great as Polamalu is, he's got an OUTSTANDING defense around him that helps make his job easier which should also be taken into account.

Like I said there may be no other player ever (but especially active) that started 4 pro bowls and was selected a first team all pro 3 times (and 2nd team once) in his first 4 seasons.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like probowls are your number one criteria to determine greatness?

1.You make it sound like Polamalu is great because of the Steelers, when in reality it's more the other way around. According to NFL Network, the Steelers average a .500 record when Troy is out of the line up.

2. Troy makes big time plays vs big time competion in big time games. Please show me two highlights of Willis making a big time play against a team not named the Rams or Cards. Where are the big time, end of the game plays that we need from Willis when it's all on the line? The last couple of years the defense has not been able to stop opposing teams when it counts the most. I'm not gonna put that on Pats shoulders, but if your not making plays, your not making plays. The reason doesn't really matter.

3. Which brings me to my third point. DPOY is DPOY. Of course you dont get it if your team doesn't make the playoffs. IMO, DPOY is for the player that means so much to his team that they wouldnt hit the playoffs/superbowl with out him. IMO, if the Steelers dont have Troy they dont win a Superbowl. If the Niner dont have Willis, we are 4-12 instead of 6 -10. Whooopeddydo.

I know it sounds like I'm hating on Willis, but I'm not. I'm just being honest. If he starts leading a top D, year in and year out and making big time plays when it matters, then I'll reconsider my position. All stats are not created equal. A stop for a loss in the first quarter is not as big as a stop for a loss for the win.

My postition in a nutshell: Willis is as physically talented as they come, but he still doesn't have the game changing moments you want to see to be called great. Whether its because of play calling, supporting cast, or his postion, I'm not sure, but I just think the Zone has marked him as a HOF when he doesn't have HOF moments, yet.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jun 28, 2011 at 13:59:06 ]
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Again, throw ANY non-QB out there, and there is a damn good argument why Willis should be higher.

Troy Palomalu?

He has played twice as many seasons yet Willis has been selected a first team all pro the same amount of times. And the one season Willis wasn't a first team all pro, he was a 2nd. There have been FOUR years where Polamalu wasn't even a 2nd team all pro. He has also failed to make the pro-bowl twice (Willis has made it each year) and just for s**ts and giggles failed to win rookie of the year (Willis did). About the only thing Polamalu has on Willis is a DPOY award, and Willis would likely have at least 1 or 2 if he played on a team as good as the Steelers. When the niners improve and start making the playoffs, Willis will get DPOY recognition as well. Book it. Not to mention, as great as Polamalu is, he's got an OUTSTANDING defense around him that helps make his job easier which should also be taken into account.

Like I said there may be no other player ever (but especially active) that started 4 pro bowls and was selected a first team all pro 3 times (and 2nd team once) in his first 4 seasons.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like probowls are your number one criteria to determine greatness?

1.You make it sound like Polamalu is great because of the Steelers, when in reality it's more the other way around. According to NFL Network, the Steelers average a .500 record when Troy is out of the line up.

2. Troy makes big time plays vs big time competion in big time games. Please show me two highlights of Willis making a big time play against a team not named the Rams or Cards. Where are the big time, end of the game plays that we need from Willis when it's all on the line? The last couple of years the defense has not been able to stop opposing teams when it counts the most. I'm not gonna put that on Pats shoulders, but if your not making plays, your not making plays. The reason doesn't really matter.

3. Which brings me to my third point. DPOY is DPOY. Of course you dont get it if your team doesn't make the playoffs. IMO, DPOY is for the player that means so much to his team that they wouldnt hit the playoffs/superbowl with out him. IMO, if the Steelers dont have Troy they dont win a Superbowl. If the Niner dont have Willis, we are 4-12 instead of 6 -10. Whooopeddydo.

I know it sounds like I'm hating on Willis, but I'm not. I'm just being honest. If he starts leading a top D, year in and year out and making big time plays when it matters, then I'll reconsider my position. All stats are not created equal. A stop for a loss in the first quarter is not as big as a stop for a loss for the win.

My postition in a nutshell: Willis is as physically talented as they come, but he still doesn't have the game changing moments you want to see to be called great. Whether its because of play calling, supporting cast, or his postion, I'm not sure, but I just think the Zone has marked him as a HOF when he doesn't have HOF moments, yet.

How about the fact that Willis has been voted a first team all pro in as many seasons as Troy, despite playing 4 years instead of 8? Big time plays not vs. the Rams or Cards? There was the 86 yard pick 6 @ Seattle, he had a great game against the Saints this year, he was a big reason Michael Turner averaged 3 yards per carry against us, he sacked Josh Freeman twice (no inside LB had more sacks this year), he was a huge reason we held Adrian Peterson to 3 yards on 14 carries, he has had countless game changing monster hits (Brad Smith, Calvin Johnson, etc.), he had 18 tackles and a sack vs. the Patriots, he had a 20 tackle game vs. the Bucs (when they made the playoffs). Say Willis was never on the niners and Troy was. That same "we went 6-10 with him and woulda gone 4-12 without him...whoppdeedoo" argument still would apply. Troy's not better because he happened to go to a better team. Also, I realize Troy's great and there's absolutely an argument out there for why he's better than Willis, but the fact that it's debatable and you could also make the argument that Willis is better (really the fact that he has made the same amount of seasons being voted a first team all pro despite playing 4 fewer is a legitimate enough argument all by itself) means he should be in the top-10. Put Peppers at 23 and Willis in the top-10 at least...I mean c'mon...
Not sure if this has been brought up on here yet. An ESPN panel did a power ranking of current NFL players (best player in the league). Their mindset seemed to follow the webzone's a little more closely, putting Willis at #15. Fair ranking in my mind, considering the arguments brought up in this thread.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/41320/power-rankings-top-10-nfl-players
Bump, Heath Just game Willis some love on NFLN calling him THE Best Defensive Player in the Game, fast forward to 2:00

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d82817a3e/Is-Eli-Manning-one-of-the-Top-100?module=HP11_content_stream
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Again, throw ANY non-QB out there, and there is a damn good argument why Willis should be higher.

Troy Palomalu?

He has played twice as many seasons yet Willis has been selected a first team all pro the same amount of times. And the one season Willis wasn't a first team all pro, he was a 2nd. There have been FOUR years where Polamalu wasn't even a 2nd team all pro. He has also failed to make the pro-bowl twice (Willis has made it each year) and just for s**ts and giggles failed to win rookie of the year (Willis did). About the only thing Polamalu has on Willis is a DPOY award, and Willis would likely have at least 1 or 2 if he played on a team as good as the Steelers. When the niners improve and start making the playoffs, Willis will get DPOY recognition as well. Book it. Not to mention, as great as Polamalu is, he's got an OUTSTANDING defense around him that helps make his job easier which should also be taken into account.

Like I said there may be no other player ever (but especially active) that started 4 pro bowls and was selected a first team all pro 3 times (and 2nd team once) in his first 4 seasons.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like probowls are your number one criteria to determine greatness?

1.You make it sound like Polamalu is great because of the Steelers, when in reality it's more the other way around. According to NFL Network, the Steelers average a .500 record when Troy is out of the line up.

2. Troy makes big time plays vs big time competion in big time games. Please show me two highlights of Willis making a big time play against a team not named the Rams or Cards. Where are the big time, end of the game plays that we need from Willis when it's all on the line? The last couple of years the defense has not been able to stop opposing teams when it counts the most. I'm not gonna put that on Pats shoulders, but if your not making plays, your not making plays. The reason doesn't really matter.

3. Which brings me to my third point. DPOY is DPOY. Of course you dont get it if your team doesn't make the playoffs. IMO, DPOY is for the player that means so much to his team that they wouldnt hit the playoffs/superbowl with out him. IMO, if the Steelers dont have Troy they dont win a Superbowl. If the Niner dont have Willis, we are 4-12 instead of 6 -10. Whooopeddydo.

I know it sounds like I'm hating on Willis, but I'm not. I'm just being honest. If he starts leading a top D, year in and year out and making big time plays when it matters, then I'll reconsider my position. All stats are not created equal. A stop for a loss in the first quarter is not as big as a stop for a loss for the win.

My postition in a nutshell: Willis is as physically talented as they come, but he still doesn't have the game changing moments you want to see to be called great. Whether its because of play calling, supporting cast, or his postion, I'm not sure, but I just think the Zone has marked him as a HOF when he doesn't have HOF moments, yet.

How about the fact that Willis has been voted a first team all pro in as many seasons as Troy, despite playing 4 years instead of 8? Big time plays not vs. the Rams or Cards? There was the 86 yard pick 6 @ Seattle, he had a great game against the Saints this year, he was a big reason Michael Turner averaged 3 yards per carry against us, he sacked Josh Freeman twice (no inside LB had more sacks this year), he was a huge reason we held Adrian Peterson to 3 yards on 14 carries, he has had countless game changing monster hits (Brad Smith, Calvin Johnson, etc.), he had 18 tackles and a sack vs. the Patriots, he had a 20 tackle game vs. the Bucs (when they made the playoffs). Say Willis was never on the niners and Troy was. That same "we went 6-10 with him and woulda gone 4-12 without him...whoppdeedoo" argument still would apply. Troy's not better because he happened to go to a better team. Also, I realize Troy's great and there's absolutely an argument out there for why he's better than Willis, but the fact that it's debatable and you could also make the argument that Willis is better (really the fact that he has made the same amount of seasons being voted a first team all pro despite playing 4 fewer is a legitimate enough argument all by itself) means he should be in the top-10. Put Peppers at 23 and Willis in the top-10 at least...I mean c'mon...

How can Willis have game changing plays on plays where he can't make an impact.

For instance, on a passing play, when he is not a pass rusher or a cb he can only do his job. As far as I'm concerned that's like saying a cb like revis isn't a playmaker, especially against the run......well that's bc revis doesn't have much of a chance to make a play when opposing teams are running against the jets or passing to tes against the jets safeties.

Same with Willis, teams cannot run against us, Willis has helped make the niners perhaps the best run d ever, so now our secondary is in a position to almost assure that a team is going to have to pass against us and make them one dimensional.

Logic please....use it.
Originally posted by elguapo:
How can Willis have game changing plays on plays where he can't make an impact.

For instance, on a passing play, when he is not a pass rusher or a cb he can only do his job. As far as I'm concerned that's like saying a cb like revis isn't a playmaker, especially against the run......well that's bc revis doesn't have much of a chance to make a play when opposing teams are running against the jets or passing to tes against the jets safeties.

Same with Willis, teams cannot run against us, Willis has helped make the niners perhaps the best run d ever, so now our secondary is in a position to almost assure that a team is going to have to pass against us and make them one dimensional.

Logic please....use it.

Probably the reason why Carlos re-signed with us without much fuss. He knew why he had all those picks, and would not have had that type of success with any other front seven in the league.
[ Edited by SFTifoso on Apr 5, 2012 at 10:43 PM ]