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Patrick Willis #23 on NFL countdown

Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Ya, playing behind Adams and Siragusa and never having to even sniff an o-lineman must have been a real burden for him.

Obviously, we are speculating. You will never convince me and I will never convince you. I've already stated my case.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Ya, playing behind Adams and Siragusa and never having to even sniff an o-lineman must have been a real burden for him.

Obviously, we are speculating. You will never convince me and I will never convince you. I've already stated my case.

That's fine. I was just confused as to why you thought Willis' having to deal with 2-3 blockers geared to neutralize him on every play is an advantage.
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 22, 2011 at 15:47:06 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson? I'm assuming "Manning" is Peyton Manning, so he's a lock.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson? I'm assuming "Manning" is Peyton Manning, so he's a lock.

Yes, Manning is Peyton Manning. But Hutchinson has made the pro-bowl in 7 of the last 8 years and been a first team all-pro in 6 of the last 8 (and it probably would have been 8/8 and 7/8 if it weren't for his thumb injury this year)...you're telling me he's not as good as Mankins, Nicks, Evans, or Waters? You may be right but that just proves that this voting is so stupid it's a joke. If I could add one o-lineman in the league to the niners, it'd be Hutch. I also can't believe Freeney is above Willis. If you're gonna not play the run, and be a one-dimensional pass-rushing d-end, you better average like 18 sacks a year if you wanna make the top-20. He's only had one season with even at least 14 sacks...and that was 7 years ago.

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 22, 2011 at 16:08:35 ]
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Wasn't meant to be a low blow, just stating a fact. Like I said, it is just splitting hairs, but like I said, I would take Willis personally, not saying I wouldn't settle for Lewis and be happy. I like Willis' speed, he is faster than Lewis ever was. I am glad that Lewis cut himself off from the hood rats, as a public figure and the face of a franchise, he needs to be clean. He's a role model whether he likes it or not. Let's just agree that we are lucky to have Willis as the anchor to our defense.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson? I'm assuming "Manning" is Peyton Manning, so he's a lock.

Yes, Manning is Peyton Manning. But Hutchinson has made the pro-bowl in 7 of the last 8 years and been a first team all-pro in 6 of the last 8 (and it probably would have been 8/8 and 7/8 if it weren't for his thumb injury this year)...you're telling me he's not as good as Mankins, Nicks, Evans, or Waters? You may be right but that just proves that this voting is so stupid it's a joke. If I could add one o-lineman in the league to the niners, it'd be Hutch. I also can't believe Freeney is above Willis. If you're gonna not play the run, and be a one-dimensional pass-rushing d-end, you better average like 18 sacks a year if you wanna make the top-20. He's only had one season with even at least 14 sacks...and that was 7 years ago.

We completely disagree about Freeney. I think he's the best DE in the game, although Peppers could give a run for the money. His spin move is devastating!
Originally posted by gold49er2183:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson

And yet, he has a more impressive resume than everyone else listed except Brady, Manning, and MAYBE Polamalu/Reed. Even if he sucked last year (which he definitely did not), if McNabb can make it because of career body of work (when he REALLY sucked last year), how the hell can Hutchinson not when his career body of work is even better (MUCH better) AND when last year he was also way better? I've never seen something make so little sense...
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson? I'm assuming "Manning" is Peyton Manning, so he's a lock.

Yes, Manning is Peyton Manning. But Hutchinson has made the pro-bowl in 7 of the last 8 years and been a first team all-pro in 6 of the last 8 (and it probably would have been 8/8 and 7/8 if it weren't for his thumb injury this year)...you're telling me he's not as good as Mankins, Nicks, Evans, or Waters? You may be right but that just proves that this voting is so stupid it's a joke. If I could add one o-lineman in the league to the niners, it'd be Hutch. I also can't believe Freeney is above Willis. If you're gonna not play the run, and be a one-dimensional pass-rushing d-end, you better average like 18 sacks a year if you wanna make the top-20. He's only had one season with even at least 14 sacks...and that was 7 years ago.

We completely disagree about Freeney. I think he's the best DE in the game, although Peppers could give a run for the money. His spin move is devastating!

Again, if you're gonna be a top-20 player as a d-end, and not play the run (he runs upfield super wide which allows for gaping running lanes), you'd better average at least 18 sacks a year to justify it. He only has one year with even at least 14 and it was SEVEN years ago...someone like Mario Williams is just as good of a pass rusher, if not better, and WAY better against the run and he was WAY lower on the list...it's just because his team doesn't play into January with the regularity that Freeney's does.

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 22, 2011 at 16:18:53 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Ya, playing behind Adams and Siragusa and never having to even sniff an o-lineman must have been a real burden for him.

Obviously, we are speculating. You will never convince me and I will never convince you. I've already stated my case.

That's fine. I was just confused as to why you thought Willis' having to deal with 2-3 blockers geared to neutralize him on every play is an advantage.

I wont conceed that point. You're just making stuff up to make your argument look strong. With that said, are you saying coaches dont game plan against Lewis? Sure Ray plays behind a good DLine, but so does Willis. If the Ravens Dline is bette than our, it's not by much. Not to mention ever since Willis has been in the league our division has been horrible in the regular season and has not been know for their Oline strenght.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jun 22, 2011 at 17:37:45 ]
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Wasn't meant to be a low blow, just stating a fact. Like I said, it is just splitting hairs, but like I said, I would take Willis personally, not saying I wouldn't settle for Lewis and be happy. I like Willis' speed, he is faster than Lewis ever was. I am glad that Lewis cut himself off from the hood rats, as a public figure and the face of a franchise, he needs to be clean. He's a role model whether he likes it or not. Let's just agree that we are lucky to have Willis as the anchor to our defense.

Now you're talkin....

P.S. I'm not from the streets, but I know some shady cats.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jun 22, 2011 at 17:48:33 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by gold49er2183:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Hutchinson

And yet, he has a more impressive resume than everyone else listed except Brady, Manning, and MAYBE Polamalu/Reed. Even if he sucked last year (which he definitely did not), if McNabb can make it because of career body of work (when he REALLY sucked last year), how the hell can Hutchinson not when his career body of work is even better (MUCH better) AND when last year he was also way better? I've never seen something make so little sense...

This might just be me, but I think that Hutchinson's past play is more impressive than his current production. Interior linemen don't get the credit that Tackles do, and linemen don't get as much recognition as as the guys who are running all over and playing in close proximity to the football. On top of all that, the Vikings sucked this year, and you know All Day is already up there.
...as someone noted before, this rating appears to be a mish-mash of "what have you done for me lately?" and "OMG! I watched you when I was growing up!" Most guys don't remember the linemen they watched growing up (or played in Madden).

[ Edited by WRATHman44 on Jun 22, 2011 at 19:40:37 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Anyone got any guesses? I'm truly baffled.

Damn
Id guess Hutchinson or Fitzgerald
thats pertty weird though, real surprising
Originally posted by asyouwere:
23 my ACE!!! thats not fair to judge him because alot of his supporting cast sucks! willis gives 100% every week, and is the best defender in the league period!!!

I'd take Asomugha over him