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49ers Likely Won't Try To Re-Sign LB Manny Lawson

Originally posted by Wodwo:
No kidding, eh? Imagine in nickel packages, lining Justin up at end and Aldon in the three tech. WTF are o-linemen going to do? Justin Will maul the tackle one on one and of the focus on him, Aldon will pwn the guard and kill the QB.

So much potential! HYPE!

Oh, and we don't exactly have anyone much better than Lawson at OLB, NC. Sorry, but Brooks isn't going to scare people as a starter, either. If he did, he'd have just been the starter at WILL last season instead of a situational player and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Oh Wodwo, you always make me laugh!!!

Yeah, I've been hearing Smith will be tried at SAM, the WILL, etc. Essentially, he's going to play where Fangio thinks he'll be most effective and that will be dictated by our opponents and where their weaknesses are (inside, off LT, RT, etc.). Fangio will try to exploit those much like how Harbaugh will be doing for our offense...attacking the weaknesses, ala Walsh-like; we can only hope!

But as to your point that made me laugh, obviously, and hopefully we'll see the big difference in 2011 (if we have a season), coaching was the biggest road block this team faced last year (and in previous years). After 5 years, ManLaw is about as good as he's ever going to be even with the same DC for his entire career and essentially, same cast around him. Fangio won't be able to do much more with him. But with guys such as Smith, Brooks, Willis, Gibson, etc. the sky may be the limit. I think, if he is all that is advertised, you will also see a totally different secondary by scheme alone with virtually no changes in the secondary, perhaps.

Either way, this is going to be fun to watch and see how the chips fall. But one thing we DO know is that Baalke loves his pass rushers as does Fangio and no doubt, Harbaugh and his offense will benefit the most from a defense that can get off the field quickly, so what does that mean for Lawson esp. when you consider what we'll need to pay to retain Smith, Franklin and others.

The FO did not see Lawson as a priority to sign LT a year before his contract expired like it has with many other Niners who we saw LT potential and rising skill sets. We didn't see him as a priority in the off season in his final year, during his contract season last year (where players play their best) and do you think we will once FA contracts can be addressed again? We shall see!
So then it is fair to call the offensive coaching our biggest roadblock to distance the blame from the offensive players (which I agree with)... but not fair for the blame to go to our defensive coaching to insulate blame for our defensive players.... hmmm...
Originally posted by oldman9er:
So then it is fair to call the offensive coaching our biggest roadblock to distance the blame from the offensive players (which I agree with)... but not fair for the blame to go to our defensive coaching to insulate blame for our defensive players.... hmmm...

That's probably for another thread but no question, when you have had the same defensive starters and DC for 4+ years and your team continued to add expensive FA's to the starting lineup and draft players in the first round to address (Balmer, Willis, Lawson, etc.) this side of the ball, you sort of run out of excuses when your team isn't performing well from a DC's perspective which is why Manusky was "phased out" so-to-speak.

The offensive side of the ball? Train wreck from day 1. An average offense would have been nothing short of a miracle with the, um, er..."coaching" they have had!

[ Edited by NCommand on May 3, 2011 at 13:34:16 ]
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by mug0mug:
Yea, I agree with many posters when saying that I don't think Manny Lawson is the first guy who's job Aldon Smith threatens.

Lawson is certainly not so bad that you'd just cut him. It's a matter of how much he is worth contractually.

Lawson hasn't been able to get the pass-rush going we'd hoped for, but he's the best OLB we have at everything else. Aldon's perceived weakness's lie in standing up and covering etc, and Lawson is the only OLB who has that as a strength.

I'm not even sure who I want to get rid of at OLB...(and many of you thought Miller had a shot at making the roster at OLB)

How many OLB's did we have on the active roster last year?

This

Lawson's leverage and technique setting the edge and ability to move in space are great skills for the OLB position, and skills that a fresh, raw, pass-rusher could learn from.

LOLB: Lawson, LaBoy, Gibson
ILB: Willis, Takeo, Bowman, Mckillop
ROLB: Haralson, Smith, Tukuafu

I just went down the line with each LB:

Lawson - Rushing the passer - Below Average, Setting the edge - Good/Great, Dropping into coverage - Good

Haralson - Rushing the passer - Average, Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Average

Brooks - Rushing the passer - Above Average, Setting the edge - Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

LaBoy - Rushing the passer - Good , Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

If Fangio and Baalke favor rushing the passer as a trait, than LaBoy stays as 3rd down rush. Lawson's skills in the other categories proves he's a good 1st and 2nd down LB, and he wont get exposed in any situation. It comes down to Brooks and Haralson for the last spot. I think Aldon Smith resembles Brooks way more than Haralson, making Brooks more expendable.

Average? Haralson is quite bad dropping into coverage.
  • Wodwo
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Originally posted by NCommand:


The FO did not see Lawson as a priority to sign LT a year before his contract expired like it has with many other Niners who we saw LT potential and rising skill sets. We didn't see him as a priority in the off season in his final year, during his contract season last year (where players play their best) and do you think we will once FA contracts can be addressed again? We shall see!

Old regime didn't re-sign him. New regime RFA tendered him.

Whatever will be, will be.

For all we know, Fangio will want Lawson to play weak side and Brooks to move inside. Hehe....

I'm just sick of waiting to find out what the team is going to look like next season... hell, I'm sick of wondering if there's gonna be a season!

BTW, I thought Capers game plan against the Steelers, especially Roethlisberger, was very interesting. Clay was basically a spy the whole game, IIRC. Not what I expected. Was a good chess match.

Funny that the team with only one elite blitzer at OLB and not two won the game.
Originally posted by Hopper:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by mug0mug:
Yea, I agree with many posters when saying that I don't think Manny Lawson is the first guy who's job Aldon Smith threatens.

Lawson is certainly not so bad that you'd just cut him. It's a matter of how much he is worth contractually.

Lawson hasn't been able to get the pass-rush going we'd hoped for, but he's the best OLB we have at everything else. Aldon's perceived weakness's lie in standing up and covering etc, and Lawson is the only OLB who has that as a strength.

I'm not even sure who I want to get rid of at OLB...(and many of you thought Miller had a shot at making the roster at OLB)

How many OLB's did we have on the active roster last year?

This

Lawson's leverage and technique setting the edge and ability to move in space are great skills for the OLB position, and skills that a fresh, raw, pass-rusher could learn from.

LOLB: Lawson, LaBoy, Gibson
ILB: Willis, Takeo, Bowman, Mckillop
ROLB: Haralson, Smith, Tukuafu

I just went down the line with each LB:

Lawson - Rushing the passer - Below Average, Setting the edge - Good/Great, Dropping into coverage - Good

Haralson - Rushing the passer - Average, Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Average

Brooks - Rushing the passer - Above Average, Setting the edge - Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

LaBoy - Rushing the passer - Good , Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

If Fangio and Baalke favor rushing the passer as a trait, than LaBoy stays as 3rd down rush. Lawson's skills in the other categories proves he's a good 1st and 2nd down LB, and he wont get exposed in any situation. It comes down to Brooks and Haralson for the last spot. I think Aldon Smith resembles Brooks way more than Haralson, making Brooks more expendable.

Average? Haralson is quite bad dropping into coverage.

You could also say Brooks is very good in pursuit of the ball carrier.

Who the hell knows what we do with Manny considering we have new coaches. One would think a Defensive coach would value the ability to play the run very high, especially when that player can drop into coverage very well.

I have a feeling we try to sign Manny for a fair deal to his production because he brings a lot to the field and new coaches may accentuate his abilities or put him in better position to get to the QB. If we sign him, then Parys is the odd one out. If we don't sign Manny, then Parys may get some playing time.

Hell, we want Alex Smith back so who knows.

[ Edited by Joecool on May 3, 2011 at 13:54:33 ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
I just went down the line with each LB:

Lawson - Rushing the passer - Below Average, Setting the edge - Good/Great, Dropping into coverage - Good

Haralson - Rushing the passer - Average, Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Average

Brooks - Rushing the passer - Above Average, Setting the edge - Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

LaBoy - Rushing the passer - Good , Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

A little off, my friend.

Lawson - Rushing the passer - Way Below Average, Setting the edge - Good/Great in a Nolan/Manusky defense where two defenders are tied up by Sopoaga, Dropping into coverage - Good but not required in a Fangio defense - LBers only drop back in zones for confusion and only for a second or two

Haralson - Rushing the passer - Average off the bench, Setting the edge - Average , Dropping into coverage - Poor

Brooks - Rushing the passer - Above Average but needs to work on stamina and consistency; will be more motivated if he has a legit chance to start and is in a defense that highlights his skill set better, Setting the edge - Above Average (more TFL than Lawson in 1/3 the snaps) , Dropping into coverage - Above Average - had same # as INT' as Lawson and could have had 2 more easily if he could catch

LaBoy - Rushing the passer - Abover Average, Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

FYI: There will be no more predictable 3rd down pass rushers!!!

I think you're higher on Brooks than I am. I kept seeing Brooks "looking lost"; however, he has the most (2nd most now! ) passrushing potential on the team.

I also think LaBoy is better rushing the passer than you give him credit for. I will admit he looks really small compared to the OTs but he always seems to find the QB.

But by your estimate, would Lawson or Haralson be the guy to get cut (or not restructured, depending on how the CBA plays out)?

Hmmm, I don't know if I've ever seen him lost but then again, when Manusky describes the safety position in his defense as taking three years to learn, while Seattle has no issues starting a rookie safety successfully, that should tell you something right there. Perhaps MANY of our players with the most potential and upside have been shut out of an oportunity to shine b/c of the veterans ahead of them and the complexity of the defensive playbook an scheme.

Oh, I like LaBoy. I noted he is an above average pass rusher, no doubt and I think he could benefit even more under Fangio! But he isn't half the run defender Brooks is and is downright terrible in coverage which again, is a non-issue now under Fangio. While Baalke went with prototypical-sized players, for Fangio, I'm sure it's more about a skill set that can not be taught and that is a pass rush, something Lawson should have proven to us after all these years and something Aldon Smith notes is a "natural" skill. It's like speed...you just can't teach that.

As far as Lawson, the team had no intention of signing him last off season when he held out in protest, or during the whole season and the tender doesn't mean much with the CBA either. With the heavy focus on pass rush (see first pick in the draft) I'm sure Lawson sees the writing on the wall and honstly, after last off season, it just seemed to me that he wanted out anyhow. This is no surprise to anyone. Him staying here would be a much bigger surprise at this juncture.

Haralson is already signed LT for quite a while as is Brooks. The team could save a lot of money by letting Lawson walk and if they decrease Haralson's role (remember, he WAS very successful off the bench), his contract could also be restructured to match. Either way, we have plenty of cap room!

That makes sense, I forgot about his holdout last year. That, coupled with the Aldon Smith draft choice, pretty much seals the deal.

Maybe Fangio can reinvigorate Brooks and he and Smith will be the long-term answers. Unfortunately, we have to wait at least another 2 months (per Adam Schefter) for the season to start. So all we can do now is postulate
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
I just went down the line with each LB:

Lawson - Rushing the passer - Below Average, Setting the edge - Good/Great, Dropping into coverage - Good

Haralson - Rushing the passer - Average, Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Average

Brooks - Rushing the passer - Above Average, Setting the edge - Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

LaBoy - Rushing the passer - Good , Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

A little off, my friend.

Lawson - Rushing the passer - Way Below Average, Setting the edge - Good/Great in a Nolan/Manusky defense where two defenders are tied up by Sopoaga, Dropping into coverage - Good but not required in a Fangio defense - LBers only drop back in zones for confusion and only for a second or two

Haralson - Rushing the passer - Average off the bench, Setting the edge - Average , Dropping into coverage - Poor

Brooks - Rushing the passer - Above Average but needs to work on stamina and consistency; will be more motivated if he has a legit chance to start and is in a defense that highlights his skill set better, Setting the edge - Above Average (more TFL than Lawson in 1/3 the snaps) , Dropping into coverage - Above Average - had same # as INT' as Lawson and could have had 2 more easily if he could catch

LaBoy - Rushing the passer - Abover Average, Setting the edge - Below Average , Dropping into coverage - Below Average

FYI: There will be no more predictable 3rd down pass rushers!!!

I think you're higher on Brooks than I am. I kept seeing Brooks "looking lost"; however, he has the most (2nd most now! ) passrushing potential on the team.

I also think LaBoy is better rushing the passer than you give him credit for. I will admit he looks really small compared to the OTs but he always seems to find the QB.

But by your estimate, would Lawson or Haralson be the guy to get cut (or not restructured, depending on how the CBA plays out)?

Hmmm, I don't know if I've ever seen him lost but then again, when Manusky describes the safety position in his defense as taking three years to learn, while Seattle has no issues starting a rookie safety successfully, that should tell you something right there. Perhaps MANY of our players with the most potential and upside have been shut out of an oportunity to shine b/c of the veterans ahead of them and the complexity of the defensive playbook an scheme.

Oh, I like LaBoy. I noted he is an above average pass rusher, no doubt and I think he could benefit even more under Fangio! But he isn't half the run defender Brooks is and is downright terrible in coverage which again, is a non-issue now under Fangio. While Baalke went with prototypical-sized players, for Fangio, I'm sure it's more about a skill set that can not be taught and that is a pass rush, something Lawson should have proven to us after all these years and something Aldon Smith notes is a "natural" skill. It's like speed...you just can't teach that.

As far as Lawson, the team had no intention of signing him last off season when he held out in protest, or during the whole season and the tender doesn't mean much with the CBA either. With the heavy focus on pass rush (see first pick in the draft) I'm sure Lawson sees the writing on the wall and honstly, after last off season, it just seemed to me that he wanted out anyhow. This is no surprise to anyone. Him staying here would be a much bigger surprise at this juncture.

Haralson is already signed LT for quite a while as is Brooks. The team could save a lot of money by letting Lawson walk and if they decrease Haralson's role (remember, he WAS very successful off the bench), his contract could also be restructured to match. Either way, we have plenty of cap room!

That makes sense, I forgot about his holdout last year. That, coupled with the Aldon Smith draft choice, pretty much seals the deal.

Maybe Fangio can reinvigorate Brooks and he and Smith will be the long-term answers. Unfortunately, we have to wait at least another 2 months (per Adam Schefter) for the season to start. So all we can do now is postulate

Lawson worked his ass off last offseason to bulk up and get more explosive. Take that and the fact that it was a contract year into account and he, along with the 49ers, should be disappointed with his production and presence on the field.
  • Wodwo
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  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by Joecool:

Lawson worked his ass off last offseason to bulk up and get more explosive. Take that and the fact that it was a contract year into account and he, along with the 49ers, should be disappointed with his production and presence on the field.

Very true.

If he does come back, it shouldn't be for big money or a guaranteed starting spot.

That said, he wasn't exactly put in the best position to be effective, either. Same goes for the whole team. That's why Fangio said he doesn't plan to evaluate based on game film... he doesn't know what the coaches were telling the players to do.
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by Joecool:

Lawson worked his ass off last offseason to bulk up and get more explosive. Take that and the fact that it was a contract year into account and he, along with the 49ers, should be disappointed with his production and presence on the field.

Very true.

If he does come back, it shouldn't be for big money or a guaranteed starting spot.

That said, he wasn't exactly put in the best position to be effective, either. Same goes for the whole team. That's why Fangio said he doesn't plan to evaluate based on game film... he doesn't know what the coaches were telling the players to do.

Very true although I believe that was Harbaugh who said that? But it's a valid point either way!

Unfortunately, it's all Fangio will have to go by (5 years of film on Lawson) and by the time Fangio gets around to even wanting to evaluate him on the field, Lawson himself may have taken off to another team in FA.

I do think though after 5 years of starting the NFL at the WILL and ending in the SAM, it's safe to say he has been miscasted...but miscasted playing in a 3-4. He is more ideal for a 4-3 defense and that is where most predict he will end up playing.

Either way, 5 years is plenty of time to develop a player under the same DC, cast, etc...at least enough to know that he is unable to do the primary responsibility of a SAM/WILL, IMHO.

I wish him and US, the best no matter how the cards fall!

[ Edited by NCommand on May 3, 2011 at 14:37:45 ]
I will say which im sure many have said already, I like Lawson, and I hope we keep him AT THE RIGHT PRICE
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
I will say which im sure many have said already, I like Lawson, and I hope we keep him AT THE RIGHT PRICE

What does price matter in all of this? If a QB cant throw an accurate pass would u want him for $5.00? And if this price is right what position do you want him to play?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
I will say which im sure many have said already, I like Lawson, and I hope we keep him AT THE RIGHT PRICE

What does price matter in all of this? If a QB cant throw an accurate pass would u want him for $5.00? And if this price is right what position do you want him to play?

Cause like it or not, the 49ers will only spend a certain amount on players. If Lawson is gonna demand crazy money and some other team will pay it. Then we don't need him
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
I will say which im sure many have said already, I like Lawson, and I hope we keep him AT THE RIGHT PRICE

What does price matter in all of this? If a QB can't throw an accurate pass would u want him for $5.00? And if this price is right what position/role do you want him to play?

Cause like it or not, the 49ers will only spend a certain amount on players. If Lawson is gonna demand crazy money and some other team will pay it. Then we don't need him

I don't think we need him, period. But I hear what you are saying! With Baas, Franklin, LaBoy, Clements (if he doesn't want to restructure, etc.), it's going to be interesting to watch!
http://www.csnbayarea.com/05/08/11/Maiocco-Still-a-role-for-Lawson-in-49ers/landing.html?full_args=05/08/11/Maiocco-Still-a-role-for-Lawson-in-49ers/landing&blockID=518936&feedID=5936