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Some thoughts on Crabtree

Originally posted by norcal49er864:
Originally posted by aTx49er:
I actually watched crabtree when he was at Texas Tech. He is overrated. He doesn't run clean routes and he can't get separation. He's more a product of that offense than he is a great receiver. Wes Welker runs far better routes but doesn't have crabtree's physical tools. Crabtree does have a very quick first step when he makes the break in his route. That usually got him some separation in college but it isn't working so well in the nfl. At best he'll be a good 2nd receiver.

I know everything is smith's fault here but we really don't have that good of a receiving corps.....

Wow, OK...

There's a lot of misinformation being spread around here. Go watch some highlight videos of crabtree in college, or even in the pros. If you had in fact watched him like you claim, then I would bet you would have a different opinion of him. He is indeed physically talented. No one is saying he has elite speed, but he is VERY quick, has great acceleration off the line and out of his cuts, and has amazing hands. Those are the essential physical tools you need to be a great WR in this league, and he has them. Remember this is just his first full year with us and he has Alex Smith right now as his QB.

Highlights? The point I was trying to make is that I actually watched him in games. Almost all of them. He had one freakish year stat-wise . The second year defenses covered him better because they knew about his quick double moves. He still had alot of TDs but his YAC dropped significantly. Go watch his college highlights and you'll see him making catches in space with at least a 5yd cushion from the covering db. He does have the tools to be a good WR in this league. But that will only happen if we have a true #1 receiver to take the focus off of him.
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Oct 4, 2010 at 12:14 PM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

#2 receivers don't normally gain 625 yards their rookie season in 11 games. He's also gotten more catches in the past two games and seems to be getting more comfortable.

You want proof on how much the QB affects a WR: Andre Johnson. He had "#2 WR" numbers until Carr left. Once Carr left, Andre Johnson is now considered one of the top receivers in the league.

Seasons with David Carr at QB:
2003: 66 catches for 976 yards (rookie year)
2004: 79 catches for 1,142 yards
2005: 63 catches for 688 yards (13 games played)
2006: 103 catches for 1,147 yards (how does a receiver barely break 1000 yards with 103 catches? Short easy throws/checkdowns)

Without David Carr:
2007: 60 cathes for 851 yards (played only 9 games)
2008: 115 catches for 1575 yards
2009: 101 catcehs for 1569 yards
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.

Here's where I disagree. You can be a number one receiver even if you're not great at stretching the field.

Anquan Boldin is a possession receiver. Marquis Colston is a possession receiver. You put guys around them that stretch the field they have more space to work with and they produce. The problem we're seeing with Crabs is no one respects are ability to go deep and there's just not as many oppurtunites for Crabs to get open.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.

So the fact that Vernon is being helped with over the top coverage has no affect on Crabtree?

Vernon has been getting double-team attention so that analysis is out the window. He is our receiver who gets that #1 attention.
Crabtree would greatly benefit having a more accurate QB and another very good WR on the team , I also factor in Raye as an OC to begin the season and Singletary's simple conservative approach to the game on offense.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.

So the fact that Vernon is being helped with over the top coverage has no affect on Crabtree?

Vernon has been getting double-team attention so that analysis is out the window. He is our receiver who gets that #1 attention.
Davis gets a linebacker underneath and a safety behind, and defenses this year are doing that consistently where they were not last year. That takes Davis out of the play.

The defense is still left with their best CB or even their #2 guy to cover Crabtree and still be able to roll a second safety over him. That leaves the other CB to cover Morgan, and with only two WRs and one TE with a fullback or even two TEs, that pretty well covers all passing options.

That is why I would like to see Johnson go to some 3 and 4 WR sets. It would force defenses to spread out and create more targets for Smith to throw to. When all he has is two wide outs and Vernon Davis, often blocking before he releases, you have to admit, the options are a LOT more limited.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.

Here's where I disagree. You can be a number one receiver even if you're not great at stretching the field.

Anquan Boldin is a possession receiver. Marquis Colston is a possession receiver. You put guys around them that stretch the field they have more space to work with and they produce. The problem we're seeing with Crabs is no one respects are ability to go deep and there's just not as many oppurtunites for Crabs to get open.
I guess it depends on what you call the #1 receiver.

Bottom line is the team needs others who can stretch the field for the possession guy if that is to be your money guy. If Crabtree is to be the possession receiver, then they need guys who can stretch it, and they don't have any. (see my notes on Davis above)

This train of the discussion reminds me of the Shaun Hill days when defenses learned he was not a threat to burn them deep and they just kept jamming all the short stuff and just killed the offense.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.

Here's where I disagree. You can be a number one receiver even if you're not great at stretching the field.

Anquan Boldin is a possession receiver. Marquis Colston is a possession receiver. You put guys around them that stretch the field they have more space to work with and they produce. The problem we're seeing with Crabs is no one respects are ability to go deep and there's just not as many oppurtunites for Crabs to get open.
I guess it depends on what you call the #1 receiver.

Bottom line is the team needs others who can stretch the field for the possession guy if that is to be your money guy. If Crabtree is to be the possession receiver, then they need guys who can stretch it, and they don't have any. (see my notes on Davis above)

This train of the discussion reminds me of the Shaun Hill days when defenses learned he was not a threat to burn them deep and they just kept jamming all the short stuff and just killed the offense.

I think this team needs to figure out it's offensive identity before it can even develop a "#1 WR".
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.
The bold is exactly the problem; Morgan is just a lesser version of Crabtree. Neither one is a #1. You make the point with the comparison to the Saints who have two guys that CAN burn a defense deep. Ginn is the only hope for that on this team and he hasn't played yet.

Also, I believe the anti-Smith rhetoric is buying Crabtree some space here. The truth is, Crabtree isn't getting open very often, and when he does, it is only on short routes. Yesterday Smith put the ball right on the money to him, and he did catch it. If he had been open more, he might have seen the ball more.

I am also looking forward to how Johnson might better utilize him. I'm not disappointed by yesterday as Johnson didn't have much time to really work on those things. I hope to see some improvement there in the future.

Here's where I disagree. You can be a number one receiver even if you're not great at stretching the field.

Anquan Boldin is a possession receiver. Marquis Colston is a possession receiver. You put guys around them that stretch the field they have more space to work with and they produce. The problem we're seeing with Crabs is no one respects are ability to go deep and there's just not as many oppurtunites for Crabs to get open.
I guess it depends on what you call the #1 receiver.

Bottom line is the team needs others who can stretch the field for the possession guy if that is to be your money guy. If Crabtree is to be the possession receiver, then they need guys who can stretch it, and they don't have any. (see my notes on Davis above)

This train of the discussion reminds me of the Shaun Hill days when defenses learned he was not a threat to burn them deep and they just kept jamming all the short stuff and just killed the offense.

I think this team needs to figure out it's offensive identity before it can even develop a "#1 WR".
Well, that is part of the problem. The identity Singletary wanted isn't what the league has wanted, nor is it something that works. Now they are trying to switch horses in the middle of the stream and that is difficult in the best of circumstances.
How is Crabtree supposed to tear it up when he has Smith throwing him the ball only 2-3 times a game.
They need to put him int he slot and run some crossing routes,all Im seeing is hes always on the ege,and just doing that come back route thats it.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Crabtree catches everything he gets his hands on. Every team is looking for a reciever like that. Personally, I think he's an ideal #2 behind an explosive, big bodied #1 reciever, ala Andre Johnson.

It is very telling that at one time he was viewed as the greatest receiver to come out of college since Calvin Johnson and now he needs to have a true #1 ahead of him drawing fire so he can run some underneath "possession" routes.

I don't think he needs a true number one receiver drawing attention off him. I think he needs a better QB and some role playing receiving threats that don't do same thing he does. You look at the Saints and they have Meachem and Henderson drawing attention away from Colston. Those guys are deep threats who stretch the defense, and if you don't respect them Brees will make you pay

We compliment Crabs with another possession receiver in Josh Morgan, and a bunch of 2 tight end sets. Teams aren't afraid of us going deep at all. You put Crabtree on a team that actually has a clue on how to run a offense I think he fairs alot better.

This exactly! This pisses me off to watch all of the talent we have just being wasted because high school coaches can design plays to switch things up on a defense & keep them off guard! You would think we only have two recievers on the team, because even when we go 5-wide we still only use two recievers!