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The NFL's # 1 Defense Thread

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).

This coaching staff is getting extremely exposed. So I guess it took Singletary 5 weeks to figure out that teams are game-planning to take Willis out the game!?

Maybe Sing is too busy paying attention to JUST Alex Smith!? WTF

Good job coach!
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.

How is it possible to only see one side of things? 1 TO a game is piss poor. Just like 16 total is the most TO's by an offense, 13 total is the leader for takeaways on defense during the same span. The defense is generating as little TO's at the same rate as the offense is turning the ball over a game. It's a wash. At the end of the day, I half agree with you. In whole, we can't win or effectively evaluate the "team" until we stop turning the ball over on offense and start generating some TO's on defense AND play better ST's.

You are right but a defenses first priority isn't to get a turnover, it's to stop the offense. An offenses first priority is to not turn the ball over and give free possessions.

I'm not seeing one side of things. I am only saying that one is a bigger issue than the other and one is directly correlated to losing games more than the other. Until the bigger issue is fixed, we will lose more games than win.

A defense that doesn't get turnovers won't lose you the game. However, an offense that does give the ball away will lose you games.

One is like icing on top of the cake and the other is like digging your own grave. One we have control over and the other we have less control over.

We need to focus more on what we can control and not hope that our defense gets more turnovers.
Just for grins; Rams have 10 forced fumbles and have recovered 6,
Lions 8 FF, recovered 7
Bears 7 FF, recovered 7
Steelers 9 FF, recovered 6
Jets 6 FF, recovered 7 - one unforced
Cardinals 7 FF, recovered 4
Giants 8 FF, 5 rec



49ers 2 FF, recovered 1

Only the Cowboys, Dolphins and Pats have fewer recovered fumbles.

49ers 4 INTs rank them in a tie with 6 other teams for #17 in the league.

Only four other teams have fewer TOs. That is one of the reasons the team has the worst average offensive starting position in the league.

I understand all of that but tell me what we have more control over, minimizing our turnovers or forcing more fumbles?

If our own turnovers weren't a major issue, then you work more on creating turnovers and gambling on throw and strip the ball over making the tackle. However, forcing turnovers (not completely in our control) is lower on the list than decreasing our own turnovers.
Both are coaching issues as well as player issues. Nate Clements allowing Roddy White to strip the ball is no less an issue than Alex Smith throwing a jump pass into traffic. When Crabtree runs the wrong pattern resulting in a pick, it is no different than when Haralson wraps a player around the waist instead of across the arms where there is a chance for a FF.

In general, you might say it is easier to control ones own giveaways but when a team is at the bottom of the league in takeways there is an issue there as well.
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).

This coaching staff is getting extremely exposed. So I guess it took Singletary 5 weeks to figure out that teams are game-planning to take Willis out the game!?

Maybe Sing is too busy paying attention to JUST Alex Smith!? WTF

Good job coach!

We need to go more with 4 man fronts. We have a lot of athleticism in that personnel. Ray McDonald, Justin Smith, Sopoaga, Manny Lawson(I have no idea who to put here)
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).

This coaching staff is getting extremely exposed. So I guess it took Singletary 5 weeks to figure out that teams are game-planning to take Willis out the game!?

Maybe Sing is too busy paying attention to JUST Alex Smith!? WTF

Good job coach!

We need to go more with 4 man fronts. We have a lot of athleticism in that personnel. Ray McDonald, Justin Smith, Sopoaga, Manny Lawson(I have no idea who to put here)

I'm very curious to see how Singnusky adjusts to this.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).

What I don't get is that Staley was supposed to have great footwork but yet he's constantly getting beat by speed rushers. He's a solid player but he's not a top level OT by any means. Willis has always been shaky in coverage. why they put him in coverage so much instead of just sending him on a gap blitzes more often is puzzling.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).

This coaching staff is getting extremely exposed. So I guess it took Singletary 5 weeks to figure out that teams are game-planning to take Willis out the game!?

Maybe Sing is too busy paying attention to JUST Alex Smith!? WTF

Good job coach!

We need to go more with 4 man fronts. We have a lot of athleticism in that personnel. Ray McDonald, Justin Smith, Sopoaga, Manny Lawson(I have no idea who to put here)
I would like to see Sop and Franklin at DT with McDonald and Smith at DE. Willis in the middle with Lawson and Brooks/LaBoy on the outside. 4-3.

With two DTs, it forces teams to hold both guards in to block. That ties up the middle of the line to make it more difficult for a blocking back to get through to Willis.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.

How is it possible to only see one side of things? 1 TO a game is piss poor. Just like 16 total is the most TO's by an offense, 13 total is the leader for takeaways on defense during the same span. The defense is generating as little TO's at the same rate as the offense is turning the ball over a game. It's a wash. At the end of the day, I half agree with you. In whole, we can't win or effectively evaluate the "team" until we stop turning the ball over on offense and start generating some TO's on defense AND play better ST's.

You are right but a defenses first priority isn't to get a turnover, it's to stop the offense. An offenses first priority is to not turn the ball over and give free possessions.

I'm not seeing one side of things. I am only saying that one is a bigger issue than the other and one is directly correlated to losing games more than the other. Until the bigger issue is fixed, we will lose more games than win.

A defense that doesn't get turnovers won't lose you the game. However, an offense that does give the ball away will lose you games.

One is like icing on top of the cake and the other is like digging your own grave. One we have control over and the other we have less control over.

We need to focus more on what we can control and not hope that our defense gets more turnovers.
Just for grins; Rams have 10 forced fumbles and have recovered 6,
Lions 8 FF, recovered 7
Bears 7 FF, recovered 7
Steelers 9 FF, recovered 6
Jets 6 FF, recovered 7 - one unforced
Cardinals 7 FF, recovered 4
Giants 8 FF, 5 rec



49ers 2 FF, recovered 1

Only the Cowboys, Dolphins and Pats have fewer recovered fumbles.

49ers 4 INTs rank them in a tie with 6 other teams for #17 in the league.

Only four other teams have fewer TOs. That is one of the reasons the team has the worst average offensive starting position in the league.

I understand all of that but tell me what we have more control over, minimizing our turnovers or forcing more fumbles?

If our own turnovers weren't a major issue, then you work more on creating turnovers and gambling on throw and strip the ball over making the tackle. However, forcing turnovers (not completely in our control) is lower on the list than decreasing our own turnovers.
Both are coaching issues as well as player issues. Nate Clements allowing Roddy White to strip the ball is no less an issue than Alex Smith throwing a jump pass into traffic. When Crabtree runs the wrong pattern resulting in a pick, it is no different than when Haralson wraps a player around the waist instead of across the arms where there is a chance for a FF.

In general, you might say it is easier to control ones own giveaways but when a team is at the bottom of the league in takeways there is an issue there as well.

When we have played offenses that are not "Safe", ATL and NO, we did a very good job on defense in terms of turnovers.

The gameplan to beat us is to keep it safe and let us make mistakes. We have lost every game and some games we have created multiple turnovers, or shut down the opposing QB, but in every game, we have turned it over almost an average of 3 times per.

There is a far greater issue on our own turnovers by the offense than anything. But everyone seems to overlook this more than anything else because of the key person involved in those turnovers every games (my personal opinion of what I have read on this board).
Originally posted by Joecool:
You are right but a defenses first priority isn't to get a turnover, it's to stop the offense. An offenses first priority is to not turn the ball over and give free possessions.

I'm not seeing one side of things. I am only saying that one is a bigger issue than the other and one is directly correlated to losing games more than the other. Until the bigger issue is fixed, we will lose more games than win.

A defense that doesn't get turnovers won't lose you the game. However, an offense that does give the ball away will lose you games.

One is like icing on top of the cake and the other is like digging your own grave. One we have control over and the other we have less control over.

We need to focus more on what we can control and not hope that our defense gets more turnovers.

What's interesting about this statement is that it comes down to philosophy. The Jets have, what, average players on defense, a lot of no-names, a couple stars (Revis hurt most of the year) and are leading the league in TOR at +11. Their goal on offense is to manage TOP, run the ball well, complete 3rd downs and score. Maybe even in that order. Their defense is designed to get off the field as quickly as possible and generate as many TO's as possible with a well designed blitzing scheme and a dictating defense.

So I guess it depends on how you want to look at it. Like Jimmy Raye was quoted as saying, he wanted an offense that managed the clock, keep it tight and try to win it late in the 4th quarter. With that philosophy, scoring is last on the priority list and an end result of the aforementioned.

Manusky's defense is play deep, keep everything in front of you, don't give up big plays and tighten up in the red zone and only give up field goals. This is a "defensive" philosophy that adjust to what the offense is doing. This is one reason why their TOP is high. You could say generating TO's is last on their list. Unfortunately, teams have figured this out, convert on 3rd downs, still get huge plays (esp. on 3rd downs), have scored 130 points in 5 games on us, we've generated one big play all year (and then fumbled it back to them), don't stop teams when it matters, can't get off the field AND have not generated any TO's comparitively speaking.

So, for both offense and defense it comes down to your philosophy. Right now, we're seeing a shift on offense from run-first, TOP and conservative offense to more of a spread offense with the goal in mind of scoring first, early and often.

Now, when are we going to see a shift in philosophy on defense?
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).

This coaching staff is getting extremely exposed. So I guess it took Singletary 5 weeks to figure out that teams are game-planning to take Willis out the game!?

Maybe Sing is too busy paying attention to JUST Alex Smith!? WTF

Good job coach!

We need to go more with 4 man fronts. We have a lot of athleticism in that personnel. Ray McDonald, Justin Smith, Sopoaga, Manny Lawson(I have no idea who to put here)
I would like to see Sop and Franklin at DT with McDonald and Smith at DE. Willis in the middle with Lawson and Brooks/LaBoy on the outside. 4-3.

With two DTs, it forces teams to hold both guards in to block. That ties up the middle of the line to make it more difficult for a blocking back to get through to Willis.

This would be a very strong defensive front 7 altogether. Why we don't do this more is just crazy. The only thing that concerns me is taking Spikes out. He's very studied. He can cover well so I wouldn't even mind seeing him at weakside but that's just too much of a change in terms of practice and knowledge of the position.
Originally posted by Joecool:
This would be a very strong defensive front 7 altogether. Why we don't do this more is just crazy. The only thing that concerns me is taking Spikes out. He's very studied. He can cover well so I wouldn't even mind seeing him at weakside but that's just too much of a change in terms of practice and knowledge of the position.

We've played quite a few 4-man fronts this year bringing in d-linemen and subbing out Lawson. Biut why not? If we aren't or "can't" generate QB pressures from the two OLB's consistently, just go to a four-man dline with two edge rushers (just as predictable) which will allow for Willis to be "free" again and allow the other two LB's to cover more (like they already are) and flow to the ball carrier. We can rotate Brooks and LaBoy at the ends, Haralson as well, use more RJF and McDonald inside as well. I love the 3-4 but Manusky is clueless on how to run one and this organization is clueless on how to build one.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
This would be a very strong defensive front 7 altogether. Why we don't do this more is just crazy. The only thing that concerns me is taking Spikes out. He's very studied. He can cover well so I wouldn't even mind seeing him at weakside but that's just too much of a change in terms of practice and knowledge of the position.

We've played quite a few 4-man fronts this year bringing in d-linemen and subbing out Lawson. Biut why not? If we aren't or "can't" generate QB pressures from the two OLB's consistently, just go to a four-man dline with two edge rushers (just as predictable) which will allow for Willis to be "free" again and allow the other two LB's to cover more (like they already are) and flow to the ball carrier. We can rotate Brooks and LaBoy at the ends, Haralson as well, use more RJF and McDonald inside as well. I love the 3-4 but Manusky is clueless on how to run one and this organization is clueless on how to build one.

The bold is quite possibly the best answer to our defense creating turnovers.
When are we going to listen to both NCommand and NinerGM?!

This is NOT a true core 3-4 team. Let's go over the same things now in our fifth year with this shall we?

NO true NT fattie at 320+ since Wilfolk in 2004!
NO true pass rushing DE/OLB on both sides!

Until we nab those two players for our 3-4, we are still running a hybrid.

Frick the 3-4 now and run the 4-3 because it seems we have the players to do better in that scheme, no?

J. Smith--Franklin/RJF--Ice/McD--LaBoy/Brooks

Manny/Haralson--Willis--Bowman/Spikes

Than

J. Smith--Franklin--Ice
Haralson/Laboy--Spikes/Bowman--Willis--Lawson/Brooks

It's just not cuttin' it now!
Originally posted by ninertico:
When are we going to listen to both NCommand and NinerGM?!

This is NOT a true core 3-4 team. Let's go over the same things now in our fifth year with this shall we?

NO true NT fattie at 320+ since Wilfolk in 2004!
NO true pass rushing DE/OLB on both sides!

Until we nab those two players for our 3-4, we are still running a hybrid.

Frick the 3-4 now and run the 4-3 because it seems we have the players to do better in that scheme, no?

J. Smith--Franklin/RJF--Ice/McD--LaBoy/Brooks

Manny/Haralson--Willis--Bowman/Spikes

Than

J. Smith--Franklin--Ice
Haralson/Laboy--Spikes/Bowman--Willis--Lawson/Brooks

It's just not cuttin' it now!

We could always go with Nolan's favorite: The Big Nickel!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
This would be a very strong defensive front 7 altogether. Why we don't do this more is just crazy. The only thing that concerns me is taking Spikes out. He's very studied. He can cover well so I wouldn't even mind seeing him at weakside but that's just too much of a change in terms of practice and knowledge of the position.

We've played quite a few 4-man fronts this year bringing in d-linemen and subbing out Lawson. Biut why not? If we aren't or "can't" generate QB pressures from the two OLB's consistently, just go to a four-man dline with two edge rushers (just as predictable) which will allow for Willis to be "free" again and allow the other two LB's to cover more (like they already are) and flow to the ball carrier. We can rotate Brooks and LaBoy at the ends, Haralson as well, use more RJF and McDonald inside as well. I love the 3-4 but Manusky is clueless on how to run one and this organization is clueless on how to build one.
I too love the 3-4. You can do a lot more with it in terms of disguising the defense. Also, it gives you one more linebacker on the roster with one less DL. LBs are better on ST. Unfortunately, the 49ers lack a true 3-4 NT and the edge rushers. Of course if Manusky were let loose to run some of the pass rush options Philips used to run in SD it might make the current group a bit stronger.
Blitz Willis up the middle more often. Keep Harlason off the field. If you're going to drop lb's back in coverage, make sure Lawson is on the field as he is easily our best coverage linebacker. Actually Lawson should pretty much always be on the field. Brooks should be in more. Laboy should be in strictly for pass rushing. See what Philip Adams has. He's probably better than Tarrell Brown. I really had high hopes for Tarrell Brown, but he's just always getting beat. Have Clements line up only against the other team's more physical and slower receivers. Give Mcdonald more playing time. That man has a nasty bullrush. We have to do something about the nost tackle position because Aubrayo just doesn't seem to be getting it done this year. You would think that him and Goldson would be playing a whole lot better considering this is their contract year. They aren't going to be striking a big deal in the offseason with this kind of play.