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The NFL's # 1 Defense Thread

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.

I certainly don't disagree with you but it seems like you continue to look only at one side of the coin here.

While we have had 15 TOs on offense (9 INT's and 6 Fumbles) this is the second most in the NFL, the defense has only generated 5 itself which is 3rd worse. TO ratio is the key here.

It's truly a combination of many things...the offense turning the ball over esp. at critical times and the defense not generating any TO's of it's own and LOSING the game at critical times, many of those times the offense did their part. The same thing you say about the offense can be said about the defense...allowing the opposiion to go 75 yards immdiately after, yet again, an opening drive TD is just as devastating as a AS fumble return for a TD. It kills momentum AND it puts points on the board for the other team.

Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.
You keep missing the point about defense.

The defense, and where they allow the offense to start, has a huge roll in what follows. In the case of the 49ers offense, they have had the worst average starting position OF ANY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, according to Al Michaels Sunday night. THE WORST STARTING POSITION IN THE LEAGUE. That is NOT Alex Smith's fault. That is clearly a defense that is not playing well...and it puts a GREAT deal more pressure on an offense that has two rookies in the OL along with an inexperienced center that have made Alex Smith the most "hurried" QB in the league.

In contrast, Sanchez has had the BEST starting position of any team in the league.

I know what you are saying but that has very little, if nothing at all, to do with the offense turning the ball over. You are pointing our minor things but want to overlook the most important aspect of our play that is causing us to lose. Until we correct the major errors, the minor things won't matter.

Our defense can stop them on 3 and outs which was what we did to PHI on their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th drives but it all doesn't matter if we give them the ball back.

The defense isn't great like most teams' defenses but you give me an average defense in the NFL and I my offense turns the ball over 3+ times per game, than that defense quickly looks like a bad defense.

There's no point trying to fix something when there is a bigger problem that needs to be fixed. You can fix the defense, but what's that going to do, get us 1 more win, maybe 2. We will still have a losing record until our offense stops turning the ball over what could be a record number if they keep it up.

I give up. You REFUSE to acknowledge that any thing other than Alex Smith is causing this team to lose.

Answer this one question; how is Alex Smith responsible for the worst starting position in the league?

The way I see it, it is a dual role of poor ST play and a defense that can't stop the other team OR get turnovers. How many times has the 49er defense taken the ball away from an opponent?

Not once did I mention Alex Smith in the bold.
1:16 [Comment From Kevin Kevin: ]
Where do you think Merriman might end up after he is no longer a Charger?

1:16 Jay Glazer: The smart money would be to reunite him withi his former LB coach in San Francisco, Greg Manusky. There was interest this off-season. If he can stay healthy he would definitely give that defense a shot it needs
Wednesday October 13, 2010 1:16 Jay Glazer

1:18 Jay Glazer: The Chargers put Merriman on Reserve Injured today with a "minor injury" which means once he's healthy he must be released.

I attempted to post a new thread but since I haven't been a member for more then 7 days I was unable to haha... Seems odd since I have been a regular reader of this site for years. Guess in the last week I finally decided to make a profile.

But anyways I just read this in Jay Glazer's chat. Something to consider if he's released.
  • FL9er
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You could make an argument that the defense is the unit that is facing a rebuild. I think Willis and Smith (Justin) are worth keeping, but everyone else is replaceable. Mays is starting, Bowman is getting playing time which is good, but I don't think guys like Spikes, Clements, and Franklin (if the 49ers don't keep the 3-4 system) fit into the long-term plans.

People bag on Haralson, and Lawson is clearly a better player, but Parys is under contract on an affordable deal, while Lawson is not. It doesn't make sense to pay a guy who doesn't sack the QB the $6-$7M/yr he's seeking.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.

How is it possible to only see one side of things? 1 TO a game is piss poor. Just like 16 total is the most TO's by an offense, 13 total is the leader for takeaways on defense during the same span. The defense is generating as little TO's at the same rate as the offense is turning the ball over a game. It's a wash. At the end of the day, I half agree with you. In whole, we can't win or effectively evaluate the "team" until we stop turning the ball over on offense and start generating some TO's on defense AND play better ST's.
Originally posted by AK49er:
1:16 [Comment From Kevin Kevin: ]
Where do you think Merriman might end up after he is no longer a Charger?

1:16 Jay Glazer: The smart money would be to reunite him withi his former LB coach in San Francisco, Greg Manusky. There was interest this off-season. If he can stay healthy he would definitely give that defense a shot it needs
Wednesday October 13, 2010 1:16 Jay Glazer

1:18 Jay Glazer: The Chargers put Merriman on Reserve Injured today with a "minor injury" which means once he's healthy he must be released.

I attempted to post a new thread but since I haven't been a member for more then 7 days I was unable to haha... Seems odd since I have been a regular reader of this site for years. Guess in the last week I finally decided to make a profile.

But anyways I just read this in Jay Glazer's chat. Something to consider if he's released.

I was just going to talk about Merriman....think he fits in? is he washed up now?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.

How is it possible to only see one side of things? 1 TO a game is piss poor. Just like 16 total is the most TO's by an offense, 13 total is the leader for takeaways on defense during the same span. The defense is generating as little TO's at the same rate as the offense is turning the ball over a game. It's a wash. At the end of the day, I half agree with you. In whole, we can't win or effectively evaluate the "team" until we stop turning the ball over on offense and start generating some TO's on defense AND play better ST's.

You are right but a defenses first priority isn't to get a turnover, it's to stop the offense. An offenses first priority is to not turn the ball over and give free possessions.

I'm not seeing one side of things. I am only saying that one is a bigger issue than the other and one is directly correlated to losing games more than the other. Until the bigger issue is fixed, we will lose more games than win.

A defense that doesn't get turnovers won't lose you the game. However, an offense that does give the ball away will lose you games.

One is like icing on top of the cake and the other is like digging your own grave. One we have control over and the other we have less control over.

We need to focus more on what we can control and not hope that our defense gets more turnovers.

[ Edited by Joecool on Oct 13, 2010 at 11:10:56 ]
the defense has underachieved all season

just like that one site that picked us last in the division it said this defense was not going to be as good as last year

so far thats how its been exactly

even our Stud linebacker doesnt look like the beast he has been in the past 3 season's

another reason why this team wont be making the playoffs this season AGAIN!!!!!




POOR COACHING

CRAPPY QB

BELOW AVERAGE DEFENSE

Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:
the defense has underachieved all season

just like that one site that picked us last in the division it said this defense was not going to be as good as last year

so far thats how its been exactly

even our Stud linebacker doesnt look like the beast he has been in the past 3 season's

another reason why this team wont be making the playoffs this season AGAIN!!!!!




POOR COACHING

CRAPPY QB

BELOW AVERAGE DEFENSE


I think the comments last year about the Defense's skewed stats were true. Our good play on defense last year was against weaker teams and in chunks rather than being consistent game in game out.

Unfortunately, same goes for this offense.

And you have 0-5.
Originally posted by brucesf49:
Originally posted by AK49er:
1:16 [Comment From Kevin Kevin: ]
Where do you think Merriman might end up after he is no longer a Charger?

1:16 Jay Glazer: The smart money would be to reunite him withi his former LB coach in San Francisco, Greg Manusky. There was interest this off-season. If he can stay healthy he would definitely give that defense a shot it needs
Wednesday October 13, 2010 1:16 Jay Glazer

1:18 Jay Glazer: The Chargers put Merriman on Reserve Injured today with a "minor injury" which means once he's healthy he must be released.

I attempted to post a new thread but since I haven't been a member for more then 7 days I was unable to haha... Seems odd since I have been a regular reader of this site for years. Guess in the last week I finally decided to make a profile.

But anyways I just read this in Jay Glazer's chat. Something to consider if he's released.

I was just going to talk about Merriman....think he fits in? is he washed up now?

Really hard to call. Couldn't hurt to give him a flier for the rest of the season, but how much would he show us and would he even get on the field. the main problem with this defense is a sever lack of real outside linebackers. Parys and Manny both aren't cutting it. they need to pay Lamar Woodley whatever he wants if the Steelers let him go. They need 4 down complete backers who can cover and pressure the qb. the Niners sub olb'ers in and out so much none of them ever get a rhythm. you got Brooks and Laboy who can kinda put pressure on a qb but not consistent enough to earn any real burn and they are both liabilities int eh run and coverage game. Then you have Manny and Parys who can't rush the passer worth a dam.
mattbarrows

Singletary says Patrick Willis' ho hum games the last two weeks are the result of offenses giving him extra attention.

the start of Williscuses
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

[ Edited by verb1der on Oct 13, 2010 at 11:29:44 ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.

How is it possible to only see one side of things? 1 TO a game is piss poor. Just like 16 total is the most TO's by an offense, 13 total is the leader for takeaways on defense during the same span. The defense is generating as little TO's at the same rate as the offense is turning the ball over a game. It's a wash. At the end of the day, I half agree with you. In whole, we can't win or effectively evaluate the "team" until we stop turning the ball over on offense and start generating some TO's on defense AND play better ST's.

You are right but a defenses first priority isn't to get a turnover, it's to stop the offense. An offenses first priority is to not turn the ball over and give free possessions.

I'm not seeing one side of things. I am only saying that one is a bigger issue than the other and one is directly correlated to losing games more than the other. Until the bigger issue is fixed, we will lose more games than win.

A defense that doesn't get turnovers won't lose you the game. However, an offense that does give the ball away will lose you games.

One is like icing on top of the cake and the other is like digging your own grave. One we have control over and the other we have less control over.

We need to focus more on what we can control and not hope that our defense gets more turnovers.
Just for grins; Rams have 10 forced fumbles and have recovered 6,
Lions 8 FF, recovered 7
Bears 7 FF, recovered 7
Steelers 9 FF, recovered 6
Jets 6 FF, recovered 7 - one unforced
Cardinals 7 FF, recovered 4
Giants 8 FF, 5 rec



49ers 2 FF, recovered 1

Only the Cowboys, Dolphins and Pats have fewer recovered fumbles.

49ers 4 INTs rank them in a tie with 6 other teams for #17 in the league.

Only four other teams have fewer TOs. That is one of the reasons the team has the worst average offensive starting position in the league.
Originally posted by verb1der:
MaioccoCSN Matt Maiocco
From Singletary: Joe Staley has been best O-lineman; Aubrayo Franklin could've used camp; and Patrick Willis is getting game-planned more.


Hello Manusky!!! What have you been doing?!

My God Sing in clueless. First his comments about how our OLB's are playing "great", keeping Raye all year and then this? Staley has been ABUSED this year big time and was owned last game. Sadly, probably the most consistent has been David Baas. AF is and has always been a one-dimensional, one-gap NT and teams have adjusted easily to this and Willis has always been overrated on this board based around a defense that is designed specifically to keep him free to rack up big tackle numbers and bring some cred to this team. He's always been terrible in coverage, slow to recognize screens and needs a "defensive fullback" and a stellar d-line and OLB's only focused on the run to play big. He's an above average inside rusher and below average leader (asked someone else to call the defensive plays).
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yes and after that 75 yard PHI drive, our defense shut them down for 3 drives while our offense regained momentum only to hand it back. Do this every game and we won't have a winning record no matter how good this defense is.

One is happening more than the other, that's my point. We can't truly evaluate this team until we, not stop, but even minimize the turnovers.

Our defense has gotten 5 turnovers which is 1 per game. That's not bad.
Our offense has been turning the ball over 5 times per game. That's terrible.

How is it possible to only see one side of things? 1 TO a game is piss poor. Just like 16 total is the most TO's by an offense, 13 total is the leader for takeaways on defense during the same span. The defense is generating as little TO's at the same rate as the offense is turning the ball over a game. It's a wash. At the end of the day, I half agree with you. In whole, we can't win or effectively evaluate the "team" until we stop turning the ball over on offense and start generating some TO's on defense AND play better ST's.

You are right but a defenses first priority isn't to get a turnover, it's to stop the offense. An offenses first priority is to not turn the ball over and give free possessions.

I'm not seeing one side of things. I am only saying that one is a bigger issue than the other and one is directly correlated to losing games more than the other. Until the bigger issue is fixed, we will lose more games than win.

A defense that doesn't get turnovers won't lose you the game. However, an offense that does give the ball away will lose you games.

One is like icing on top of the cake and the other is like digging your own grave. One we have control over and the other we have less control over.

We need to focus more on what we can control and not hope that our defense gets more turnovers.
Just for grins; Rams have 10 forced fumbles and have recovered 6,
Lions 8 FF, recovered 7
Bears 7 FF, recovered 7
Steelers 9 FF, recovered 6
Jets 6 FF, recovered 7 - one unforced
Cardinals 7 FF, recovered 4
Giants 8 FF, 5 rec



49ers 2 FF, recovered 1

Only the Cowboys, Dolphins and Pats have fewer recovered fumbles.

49ers 4 INTs rank them in a tie with 6 other teams for #17 in the league.

Only four other teams have fewer TOs. That is one of the reasons the team has the worst average offensive starting position in the league.

I understand all of that but tell me what we have more control over, minimizing our turnovers or forcing more fumbles?

If our own turnovers weren't a major issue, then you work more on creating turnovers and gambling on throw and strip the ball over making the tackle. However, forcing turnovers (not completely in our control) is lower on the list than decreasing our own turnovers.

This main conversation spawned off the comment that our defense needs to stop them. Then it was mentioned that our defense played well early in that game and that turned into...well..our defense needs to create turnovers. That is where it turned into focusing on what we have more control over, creating turnovers/giving turnovers.

[ Edited by Joecool on Oct 13, 2010 at 11:41:04 ]