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Manny Lawson's worth

Originally posted by Dominate:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Dominate:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by pelos21:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:


At Manny when he loses his starting spot.

"I feel Manny will be here when he has to be here," coach Mike Singletary said. "And I think he'll be ready to go."

You guys crack me up. You act like Manny is already out the door because he hasn't shown up to a team activity that isn't required.

Newsflash, Nate and Spence aren't there either.



~Ceadder

Yah but those guys can actually play a little bit.

Oh I guess that Manny didn't rank very well statistically.

Sacks alone last season

Manny 6.5
Brooks 6
Haralson 5

That's nearly 18 sacks from those 3 guys.

And you want to F'k with that?

You have no clue what you're even talking about. If Manny weren't productive he would be at the very BOTTOM statistically. Instead he's near the top.

To me he's worth $15 mil guaranteed. What he does, allows Icebox, TKO and Bam Bam to do what they do. Crazy pathetic if you don't see that.


~Ceadder

Boy am I glad your not running our team.

Okay then lets see.

Say he gets a 5 year deal. That averages to 8 mil a season if you leave it at $40 mil.

Now, you have the signing bonus. So let's say he gets a 3 mil signing bonus + his salary which with bonuses and incentives would be 7 mil max for both. Now I'm sure that you could figure out a way to fit the remaining $8 million.

It's not a 5 year $40 million deal. It's more like a 3-4 year $15 million deal as the remaining time would be voidable IF he either meets or fails to meet the bonuses or the minimum required performance level.

Now, what I laid out was reasonable. Bam Bam is going to be playing for $10 mil a season on the average. I think that he deserves it. But he's not playing for $10 mil a season. If you don't understand contracts, then I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself.

~Ceadder


s**t I'm with you Ceadder! Marathe is a smart dude, he'll figure it out. Lawson is a big part of this defense.

Heh, I may suck at Algebra, but I'm a genius when it comes to contract numbers. lol

~Ceadder

Actually 52 is playing for 10 mil a season. If he finishes out his contract, which he will barring injury. He will get exactly that!

I know you didn't try to correct me on this. You better go look at the "GUARANTEED" amount. It's $50 mil with BONUS and INCENTIVES. Typical contract mumbo jumbo to you, and I fully expect Bam Bam to meet most of those. But no way in hell, is it a straight $50 million.

Seriously go take a look at it again.

~Ceadder

I have looked at it! What incentive dont you expect him to reach? The guy is the best ILB in the game. He doesnt have huge incentives in his contract like other players. Over the next 5 years Willis will make all 50 million if he doesnt get injured.

And this is FOOTBALL, not Baseball. Health is a real concern when two opposing forces of large mass collide.

Thanks for playing.

~Ceadder:drink:
Originally posted by strickac:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by strickac:
I like Manny, but honestly, I hope he stays away and Brooks steals his job from him. Brooks is a much better pass rusher than Manny.

Don't make me spank you with the stats. Brooks is a solid Pass Rusher yes. But WTF has he done since he's been in the league? The only thing he has going for him right now is that he's got some upside on this Defense.

Besides, how many downs are passing downs? Pass Rushers are only good for PASSING downs. So how many teams do we face that are WCO based teams? Seattle and Green Bay. Of the 13 teams we face how many are pass happy on 2nd downs? Two. Seattle and New Orleans. Green Bay is WCO but they do alot of swing and screen passes. Both of which negate the effectiveness of the Pass Rusher.

So people, PLEASE please stop with the Brooks taking Manny's job bruhaha. It's pathetically ignorant.

There are FOUR players not at OTAs'. Franklin(no guarantee he shows for Camp), Nate, Spence AND Manny.

All you have is rumor innuendo and speculation at this point.

But it's a guarantee that Brooks ain't takin shat from Manny. If anyone takes Manny's spot it would be LaBoy, but TL is a Pass Rush Specialist too. So he's more than likely(after I thought about this some) going to be on the field WITH Brooks on the opposite side. Allowing Bam Bam to drop into coverage and TKO to find a gap.

So just F'N STOP already.

~Ceadder

Go ahead and throw out all the stats you want. They're not going to surprise anyone. We know where each player stands. Face it; you're living in denial. Sure Lawson's career stats outweigh Brook's career stats. Who cares? Manny was drafted to bring heat off the edge and he's failed to live up to that. Lawson is solid in coverage and excels at setting the edge. That's great, but those can be taught; whereas, pass rushing is more of an art.

Brooks finished up the season (last 5 games) with 5 sacks and 5 forced fumbles. That's the reason for the optimism. Since the team implimented the 3-4, he's shown the most promise as a rush LB. He's a far superior pass rusher and as a stud college MLB, he's no slouch against the run either. You criticize Brooks for being a one-trick pony, but isn't Manny also? I'd prefer the guy that can pressure the QB, especially with our lackluster secondary.

IMO, for someone that's widely been considered and under-acheiver, Manny is taking a huge risk in demanding a larger contract. He may not even fit into the team's longterm plan. A duo of Brooks (pass rush) and Bowman (coverage OLB) is an adaquate and cheaper option than shelling out the cash for Lawson. Coverage LBs are relatively easy to find.

For the record, I'm not a Lawson hater. I root for him to suceed, but you must admit that he's been a bit of a letdown for us. Don't get upset that people are hoping for great things out of Brooks. Even if we use a rotation of Brooks and Lawson, I'm happy with that. I just don't see how Manny feels he has any leverage, considering he took a reduced role last season.

Brooks starting is definitely a possibly. He's getting valuable reps with the 1st team defense and Singletary seems to really like him. Laboy will probably just spell Haralson on occassion. I'd be suprised if he sees much action next year.

I'm not upset, I just think that some people around the Zone undervalue what Manny gives us.

As I said Brooks is a Pass Rush Specialist and those are great but there are 3 downs to a series(when the Defense is firing on all cylinders) before the ST unit comes out. How many of them are Passing.

Sure Manny COULD get replaced. But over OTA's?


Not likely.

~Ceadder
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
I'm not upset, I just think that some people around the Zone undervalue what Manny gives us.

As I said Brooks is a Pass Rush Specialist and those are great but there are 3 downs to a series(when the Defense is firing on all cylinders) before the ST unit comes out. How many of them are Passing.

Sure Manny COULD get replaced. But over OTA's? Not likely.

~Ceadder

I think you bring up some good points. Right now, what we don't know is if Brooks is conditioned to play every down AND be as effective against the run and still be able to drop back in zone coverage from time to time. We don't know that b/c we've never used him in that capacity. We DO know that he is good against the run b/c he was first a middle LB and then we learned he also has some serious pass rush abilities too. He's young. He's growing. He certainly has the motivatation and drive. He was pissed he didn't lead the team in sacks last year; he's got the fire too.

It is entirely possible that THIS could be the year that Manny breaks out and becomes that complete SAM and really turns it up a notch and becomes one of the pass rushers we need. If there ever was a year where Manny himself, WANTED to step up, it was last year b/c obviously, this year he'd be asking for a truck load of money. And how would you value him? I've been asking this of all pro-pay-Manny fans and so far, nobody can justify even closely to what he actually provides ON the field in his body of work to date.

But the bottom line is, we don't know that Manny will break out and there is little evidence to suggest this esp. when someone is asking 40 million. What we DO know is that suddenly Manny is holding out of OTA's and asking for more money, no less, during a year where management is already strapped with other players they need to pay.

While you feel many are undervaluing Manny's worth, there are others who think you are overvaluing Manny's worth and assuming another OLB can't be as effective against the run or in space. That remains to be seen but asking a LB to play against the run isn't exactly like asking a QB to play RB or WR either.

I do agree it's too early to tell but the negatives are starting to mount up against Manny at this point and if he's not careful, Brooks could steal his job and he could be shipped off to a team for a 5th round draft pick (if there are any suitors, of course).

BTW: How do you pronounce your name? SeaOtter? SeeADer? Cheddar? Just curious!
Originally posted by strickac:
I like Manny, but honestly, I hope he stays away and Brooks steals his job from him. Brooks is a much better pass rusher than Manny.

agreed! If Manny may lose a job then toobad for him! He didn't give us for win and nothing for us! meh!!
Originally posted by matt49er:
It's rumored Lawson wants $40M a contract not that far off from Willis and close to what VD will probably get. I say the guy is nuts and it worth 25M tops, what contract do you think Lawson is worthy of?

LOL. He's not worth that. Who is he kidding. $10 million over many years maybe.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by matt49er:
It's rumored Lawson wants $40M a contract not that far off from Willis and close to what VD will probably get. I say the guy is nuts and it worth 25M tops, what contract do you think Lawson is worthy of?

LOL. He's not worth that. Who is he kidding? $10 million over many years maybe.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
I'm not upset, I just think that some people around the Zone undervalue what Manny gives us.

As I said Brooks is a Pass Rush Specialist and those are great but there are 3 downs to a series(when the Defense is firing on all cylinders) before the ST unit comes out. How many of them are Passing.

Sure Manny COULD get replaced. But over OTA's? Not likely.

~Ceadder

I think you bring up some good points. Right now, what we don't know is if Brooks is conditioned to play every down AND be as effective against the run and still be able to drop back in zone coverage from time to time. We don't know that b/c we've never used him in that capacity. We DO know that he is good against the run b/c he was first a middle LB and then we learned he also has some serious pass rush abilities too. He's young. He's growing. He certainly has the motivatation and drive. He was pissed he didn't lead the team in sacks last year; he's got the fire too.

It is entirely possible that THIS could be the year that Manny breaks out and becomes that complete SAM and really turns it up a notch and becomes one of the pass rushers we need. If there ever was a year where Manny himself, WANTED to step up, it was last year b/c obviously, this year he'd be asking for a truck load of money. And how would you value him? I've been asking this of all pro-pay-Manny fans and so far, nobody can justify even closely to what he actually provides ON the field in his body of work to date.

But the bottom line is, we don't know that Manny will break out and there is little evidence to suggest this esp. when someone is asking 40 million. What we DO know is that suddenly Manny is holding out of OTA's and asking for more money, no less, during a year where management is already strapped with other players they need to pay.

While you feel many are undervaluing Manny's worth, there are others who think you are overvaluing Manny's worth and assuming another OLB can't be as effective against the run or in space. That remains to be seen but asking a LB to play against the run isn't exactly like asking a QB to play RB or WR either.

I do agree it's too early to tell but the negatives are starting to mount up against Manny at this point and if he's not careful, Brooks could steal his job and he could be shipped off to a team for a 5th round draft pick (if there are any suitors, of course).

BTW: How do you pronounce your name? SeaOtter? SeeADer? Cheddar? Just curious!

It's pronounced *Tsh*ay*der* in one word. It's Gaelic in origin. Being of Irish decent my name is Ceadda which is *Tsh*ay*da* and combined with an english nickname I've had since I was a pup. thanks for asking.

While I agree that $40 mil sounds like a big number for a player on the cusp, I feel that $15 mil is a reasonable Guaranteed Amount. I mean with bonus and incentives reasonably set (Average 6 to 8 sacks/60 Tackles/25 Assists minimum) that Manny is worth that. Considering what he totaled last season that's a reachable goal for this next year. But not easy either, which was a Donahue trademark(imho) with contracts. We should ALL expect more from a player each year. It's when they prove they can't perform to that level that the team can opt out. Or if they meet the set goals the player can void the length after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

And honestly when should Manny deal with this? He only has one year left on his Rookie deal and he hadn't complained about his salary once before now. He led the team at his position and Haralson makes more than he does. I find nothing wrong with wanting to make sure that your future is financially secure.

I'm not saying pay the man a gaudy amount. I'm saying that he's worth the Guaranteed amount and that it's up to him to be worth the entire $40 mil. If he proves it, I guarantee that not one person here will complain if he made $40 mil. My logic is sound. This is not me having a man crush or not having a reasonable approach.

I don't mean to be a Tool about this at all. I just think that people are looking at the past and kneejerk reacting to the $40 mil figure. However, I don't see that from Sing or anyone in the 9ers organization. They know, that is not what Manny is ultimately asking for. He wants security and there is no reason he shouldn't have it.

~Ceadder
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
I don't mean to be a Tool about this at all. I just think that people are looking at the past and kneejerk reacting to the $40 mil figure. However, I don't see that from Sing or anyone in the 9ers organization. They know, that is not what Manny is ultimately asking for. He wants security and there is no reason he shouldn't have it.

~Ceadder


Hell even then the $40mill could be (is probably) a made up number. It's nothing more than a rumor at this point.
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by spizzy:
I feel that niner fans don't appreciate how lawson set the edge last year. I watched every game and noticed that he definitely does not play as lanky as he looks and he is also pretty good in pursuit. I agree he did not show much pass rush moves, but he also did not have a lot of consistent opportunities. He also seemed pretty good in coverage

No one is saying he's not a good solid player, but he isn't worth that contract

And no one in Manny's corner has said he's going to ask for that sort of contract. It's just a rumor posted on the WZ. You should know what that is usually worth.

Actually it's not just a rumor but the idea that most of those who have written about where lawson is. MM thinks he's looking for the big contract. It isn't a rumor someone posted here, its a guess, and a pretty reasonable one, as to why lawson isn't attending any OTAs. If a POS like kawakami wrote it then i wouldn't waste my time but i tend to at least think about what MM has to say.
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by spizzy:
I feel that niner fans don't appreciate how lawson set the edge last year. I watched every game and noticed that he definitely does not play as lanky as he looks and he is also pretty good in pursuit. I agree he did not show much pass rush moves, but he also did not have a lot of consistent opportunities. He also seemed pretty good in coverage

No one is saying he's not a good solid player, but he isn't worth that contract

And no one in Manny's corner has said he's going to ask for that sort of contract. It's just a rumor posted on the WZ. You should know what that is usually worth.

Actually it's not just a rumor but the idea that most of those who have written about where lawson is. MM thinks he's looking for the big contract. It isn't a rumor someone posted here, its a guess, and a pretty reasonable one, as to why lawson isn't attending any OTAs. If a POS like kawakami wrote it then i wouldn't waste my time but i tend to at least think about what MM has to say.

Something being passed around as fact, that is based on nothing more than a guess, IS A RUMOR!!!!

That is what that's called.
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
It's pronounced *Tsh*ay*der* in one word. It's Gaelic in origin. Being of Irish decent my name is Ceadda which is *Tsh*ay*da* and combined with an english nickname I've had since I was a pup. thanks for asking.

Nice, thanks for the clarification!

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
While I agree that $40 mil sounds like a big number for a player on the cusp, I feel that $15 mil is a reasonable Guaranteed Amount. I mean with bonus and incentives reasonably set (Average 6 to 8 sacks/60 Tackles/25 Assists minimum) that Manny is worth that. Considering what he totaled last season that's a reachable goal for this next year. But not easy either, which was a Donahue trademark(imho) with contracts. We should ALL expect more from a player each year. It's when they prove they can't perform to that level that the team can opt out. Or if they meet the set goals the player can void the length after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

Yeah, I believe MM & MB mentioned he'd want something in this range (Calvin Pace money?). It's a good educated guess and gives us a ballpark to work from. I agree with your contract contigencies for sure as most are heavily incentivised these days anyhow.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
And honestly when should Manny deal with this? He only has one year left on his Rookie deal and he hadn't complained about his salary once before now. He led the team at his position and Haralson makes more than he does. I find nothing wrong with wanting to make sure that your future is financially secure.

I don't think anyone disagrees with him trying to extend this year at all. I think most have issues with HOW he is doing it. Other's like VD are here, focused on work, the absent players are all working out privately and have spoken to coach, players are signing waivers just to play (even though a guy like Baas will probably end up being a backup), etc.

In addition, VD actually performed top notch last year, is a team captain, plays every down, leads by work ethics and wants to be here. As far as Manny? I don't think Manny has ANY bargaining power at this juncture. It's apples and oranges.

The bottom line is, when you produce on the field, you get paid. Willis got paid. Haralson performed great as a pass rushing specialist with the caveat he was training to be a starter. He got paid. Last year, Brooks did the same and he got paid. LaBoy has proven NFL experience and production. He got paid. VD and Goldson will get paid. All these guys made plays and have a lot of upside and potential and are young.

The concern here is that Manny is NOT a playmaker. He never has been and probably never will be. He not a difference maker. You can go games and games w/o ever hearing Manny's name. He's a solid player. He's a smart player. He's even a nice player. But he's not a player you pay 30-40 million too with a 15 million dollar bonus and easy incentives when the defense has to make up for his skill set and esp. given he's only a 1st and 2nd down LB at this stage of his career/contract.

So I don't see management (who, IMHO holds ALL the cards here) even considering paying him more then good backup money at this point.

From a coaching perspective, I know Singletary (and I'm sure Manusky) wants to get Brooks and LaBoy on the field to see what they can do. Can Brooks finally grow into an every down starter, spelled occassionally by LaBoy or others? Imagine what THAT would do for Manusky's scheme. We already know what we have in Manny = predictability which is counter to a 3-4 defense.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
I'm not saying pay the man a gaudy amount. I'm saying that he's worth the Guaranteed amount and that it's up to him to be worth the entire $40 mil. If he proves it, I guarantee that not one person here will complain if he made $40 mil. My logic is sound. This is not me having a man crush or not having a reasonable approach.

I just haven't seen anything Manny does that would warrant a no-brainer 40 million dollar contract, whether it's incentivised to earn the full amount or not. If Manny comes in THIS year, steals the show, becomes that complete OLB and adds "consistent pass rush" to his game, then yeah, we can start talking.

We'll find out mid June to see if Manny shows up to the mandatory meetings. We may have to revist this thread when that happens. I'm 50/50 on whether he'll show up or not and I feel a large part of that may hinge on how Brooks and LaBoy progress.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
I don't mean to be a Tool about this at all. I just think that people are looking at the past and kneejerk reacting to the $40 mil figure. However, I don't see that from Sing or anyone in the 9ers organization. They know, that is not what Manny is ultimately asking for. He wants security and there is no reason he shouldn't have it.

~Ceadder

You're not being a tool. You find Manny as extremely valuable to this team undervalued by many and you see him as your first option even for pass rushing at either OLB position over any guys we have. You see the 40 million, 15 guaranteed and the rest "reachable" via incentives as being reasonable esp. if he plays lights out this year and going forward. You see his potential and feels he should be getting his like Brooks and Haralson and even LaBoy got and try to become financially secure in his last year. I get that.

The only thing we disagree on in principle is his value to this team and production on the field. Let's let this play out and see how things unfold in mid-June (I believe June 17th is the first mandatory practice).
[ Edited by NCommand on May 19, 2010 at 8:29 AM ]
I've always loved manny! Supported him even though his play never matched 1st rd pick! Felt bad for him cause he did everything right, said everything right and then tore his ACL! He put on the weight dealt with nolan and others moving him in and out of the starters role! I think this yr he will have a bounce back yr, but until he does that, he shouldn't be holding out or commanding top dollar! He needs to put up and then talk big game!
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by spizzy:
I feel that niner fans don't appreciate how lawson set the edge last year. I watched every game and noticed that he definitely does not play as lanky as he looks and he is also pretty good in pursuit. I agree he did not show much pass rush moves, but he also did not have a lot of consistent opportunities. He also seemed pretty good in coverage

No one is saying he's not a good solid player, but he isn't worth that contract

And no one in Manny's corner has said he's going to ask for that sort of contract. It's just a rumor posted on the WZ. You should know what that is usually worth.

Actually it's not just a rumor but the idea that most of those who have written about where lawson is. MM thinks he's looking for the big contract. It isn't a rumor someone posted here, its a guess, and a pretty reasonable one, as to why lawson isn't attending any OTAs. If a POS like kawakami wrote it then i wouldn't waste my time but i tend to at least think about what MM has to say.

Something being passed around as fact, that is based on nothing more than a guess, IS A RUMOR!!!!

That is what that's called.

Actually its called speculation
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by BrentJonzin:
Originally posted by spizzy:
I feel that niner fans don't appreciate how lawson set the edge last year. I watched every game and noticed that he definitely does not play as lanky as he looks and he is also pretty good in pursuit. I agree he did not show much pass rush moves, but he also did not have a lot of consistent opportunities. He also seemed pretty good in coverage

No one is saying he's not a good solid player, but he isn't worth that contract

And no one in Manny's corner has said he's going to ask for that sort of contract. It's just a rumor posted on the WZ. You should know what that is usually worth.

Actually it's not just a rumor but the idea that most of those who have written about where lawson is. MM thinks he's looking for the big contract. It isn't a rumor someone posted here, its a guess, and a pretty reasonable one, as to why lawson isn't attending any OTAs. If a POS like kawakami wrote it then i wouldn't waste my time but i tend to at least think about what MM has to say.

Something being passed around as fact, that is based on nothing more than a guess, IS A RUMOR!!!!

That is what that's called.

Actually its called speculation

Nope. It's a rumor based on speculation. It's speculation at the beginning, once people run with it and start spreading it as if it was a fact, it becomes a rumor.
More proof that in a real (and ideal) 3-4, your two inside LB's, OLB's and safeties are all interchangeable. This is why the ideal OLB's in your 3-4 are players that both can primarily pass rush en route to stopping the run and still have the athleticism to drop back in zone coverage from time to time. They should maintain approximately 50% of the total team sacks no matter how many team sacks you have.

Manny & Haralson should be able to play interchangeably at both the SAM and WILL spots creating mismatches and confusion for offenses and their blocking schemes. If they can't rush consistently, it defeats the purpose of a 3-4 and forces us to generate pressure from all other positions more and get more creative with schemes - like last year.

--Manusky said he favors more "mirror image" players at outside linebacker, inside linebacker and safety. He said it makes it easier to disguise the defense when the players on either side have similar skill sets.

Read more: Maiocco: Wideouts Learn 'Go' Route
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