Manny Lawson's worth

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by strickac:
I like Manny, but honestly, I hope he stays away and Brooks steals his job from him. Brooks is a much better pass rusher than Manny.

Don't make me spank you with the stats. Brooks is a solid Pass Rusher yes. But WTF has he done since he's been in the league? The only thing he has going for him right now is that he's got some upside on this Defense.

Besides, how many downs are passing downs? Pass Rushers are only good for PASSING downs. So how many teams do we face that are WCO based teams? Seattle and Green Bay. Of the 13 teams we face how many are pass happy on 2nd downs? Two. Seattle and New Orleans. Green Bay is WCO but they do alot of swing and screen passes. Both of which negate the effectiveness of the Pass Rusher.

So people, PLEASE please stop with the Brooks taking Manny's job bruhaha. It's pathetically ignorant.

There are FOUR players not at OTAs'. Franklin(no guarantee he shows for Camp), Nate, Spence AND Manny.

All you have is rumor innuendo and speculation at this point.

But it's a guarantee that Brooks ain't takin shat from Manny. If anyone takes Manny's spot it would be LaBoy, but TL is a Pass Rush Specialist too. So he's more than likely(after I thought about this some) going to be on the field WITH Brooks on the opposite side. Allowing Bam Bam to drop into coverage and TKO to find a gap.

So just F'N STOP already.

~Ceadder

Go ahead and throw out all the stats you want. They're not going to surprise anyone. We know where each player stands. Face it; you're living in denial. Sure Lawson's career stats outweigh Brook's career stats. Who cares? Manny was drafted to bring heat off the edge and he's failed to live up to that. Lawson is solid in coverage and excels at setting the edge. That's great, but those can be taught; whereas, pass rushing is more of an art.

Brooks finished up the season (last 5 games) with 5 sacks and 5 forced fumbles. That's the reason for the optimism. Since the team implimented the 3-4, he's shown the most promise as a rush LB. He's a far superior pass rusher and as a stud college MLB, he's no slouch against the run either. You criticize Brooks for being a one-trick pony, but isn't Manny also? I'd prefer the guy that can pressure the QB, especially with our lackluster secondary.

IMO, for someone that's widely been considered and under-acheiver, Manny is taking a huge risk in demanding a larger contract. He may not even fit into the team's longterm plan. A duo of Brooks (pass rush) and Bowman (coverage OLB) is an adaquate and cheaper option than shelling out the cash for Lawson. Coverage LBs are relatively easy to find.

For the record, I'm not a Lawson hater. I root for him to suceed, but you must admit that he's been a bit of a letdown for us. Don't get upset that people are hoping for great things out of Brooks. Even if we use a rotation of Brooks and Lawson, I'm happy with that. I just don't see how Manny feels he has any leverage, considering he took a reduced role last season.

Brooks starting is definitely a possibly. He's getting valuable reps with the 1st team defense and Singletary seems to really like him. Laboy will probably just spell Haralson on occassion. I'd be suprised if he sees much action next year.

Originally posted by susweel:
Manny could actually learn something from VD.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/18/vernon-davis-not-in-a-rush-to-get-a-new-contract/

San Francisco 49ers tight end Vernon Davis, whose contract expires after 2010, is working on a new deal with the team. But he says he's not in any hurry to get a new deal done.

"I'm not in a rush to do anything," Davis said Monday. "That'd be good, when I eventually sign my extension. It's not something that's heavy on my mind. I'm not really thinking about it at the moment."

Davis, who will make a $5.7 million base salary in the final year of his rookie deal, is reportedly asking for a five-year, $40 million contract with $25 million guaranteed. If he's unhappy with the pace of negotiations, he wasn't showing it at Monday's voluntary practice.

"I'm here because this is what I do," Davis said.

Davis is coming off his best season, catching 78 passes for 965 yards and 13 touchdowns in 2009.

Great to see! VD has REALLY grown up a lot - sometimes these guys just need a great father-figure and roll-model such as Singletary.

Manny will be gone. He has to know he's a poor fit in a 3-4 and will go to 4-3 team where he will excel.

How does everyone know what Lawson was "drafted for"?

Originally posted by Gavintech:
How does everyone know what Lawson was "drafted for"?

Because they told us.


Also it dont take genius to figure out what 3-4 OLB is supposed to do.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by Dominate:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by pelos21:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by susweel:


At Manny when he loses his starting spot.

"I feel Manny will be here when he has to be here," coach Mike Singletary said. "And I think he'll be ready to go."

You guys crack me up. You act like Manny is already out the door because he hasn't shown up to a team activity that isn't required.

Newsflash, Nate and Spence aren't there either.



~Ceadder

Yah but those guys can actually play a little bit.

Oh I guess that Manny didn't rank very well statistically.

Sacks alone last season

Manny 6.5
Brooks 6
Haralson 5

That's nearly 18 sacks from those 3 guys.

And you want to F'k with that?

You have no clue what you're even talking about. If Manny weren't productive he would be at the very BOTTOM statistically. Instead he's near the top.

To me he's worth $15 mil guaranteed. What he does, allows Icebox, TKO and Bam Bam to do what they do. Crazy pathetic if you don't see that.

~Ceadder

Boy am I glad your not running our team.

Okay then lets see.

Say he gets a 5 year deal. That averages to 8 mil a season if you leave it at $40 mil.

Now, you have the signing bonus. So let's say he gets a 3 mil signing bonus + his salary which with bonuses and incentives would be 7 mil max for both. Now I'm sure that you could figure out a way to fit the remaining $8 million.

It's not a 5 year $40 million deal. It's more like a 3-4 year $15 million deal as the remaining time would be voidable IF he either meets or fails to meet the bonuses or the minimum required performance level.

Now, what I laid out was reasonable. Bam Bam is going to be playing for $10 mil a season on the average. I think that he deserves it. But he's not playing for $10 mil a season. If you don't understand contracts, then I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself.

~Ceadder

s**t I'm with you Ceadder! Marathe is a smart dude, he'll figure it out. Lawson is a big part of this defense.

Heh, I may suck at Algebra, but I'm a genius when it comes to contract numbers. lol

~Ceadder

Actually 52 is playing for 10 mil a season. If he finishes out his contract, which he will barring injury. He will get exactly that!

I know you didn't try to correct me on this. You better go look at the "GUARANTEED" amount. It's $50 mil with BONUS and INCENTIVES. Typical contract mumbo jumbo to you, and I fully expect Bam Bam to meet most of those. But no way in hell, is it a straight $50 million.

Seriously go take a look at it again.

~Ceadder

I have looked at it! What incentive dont you expect him to reach? The guy is the best ILB in the game. He doesnt have huge incentives in his contract like other players. Over the next 5 years Willis will make all 50 million if he doesnt get injured.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Gavintech:
How does everyone know what Lawson was "drafted for"?

Because they told us.


Also it dont take genius to figure out what 3-4 OLB is supposed to do.

And he played the WILL exclusively as a rookie and pass rush exclusively...was ineffective...benched...then moved to the SAM spot.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Gavintech:
How does everyone know what Lawson was "drafted for"?

Because they told us.


Also it dont take genius to figure out what 3-4 OLB is supposed to do.

And he played the WILL exclusively as a rookie and pass rush exclusively...was ineffective...benched...then moved to the SAM spot.

I don't remember once hearing Nolan saying they drafted Lawson strictly to be a passrusher. We don't know that is what they saw in him, or that a passrusher is all they saw in him. It was us that wanted, expected, and hoped that he could be that guy. I'm sure the 49ers would have liked that too, but that doesn't mean that is the sole reason they drafted him. The fact that he played at the will spot as a rookie also had a lot to do with the roster and lack of talent at that point. A ROOKIE Lawson switching positions, Brandon Moore, and Rod Green was all they had to play either of the 3-4 OLD spots. Manny started 13 games as a rookie because they had nothing else. Ya, they would have loved it if he became a dominant weak side passrusher but just because they tried him there it doesn't automatically = they drafted him solely for that purpose.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Gavintech:
How does everyone know what Lawson was "drafted for"?

Because they told us.


Also it dont take genius to figure out what 3-4 OLB is supposed to do.

And he played the WILL exclusively as a rookie and pass rush exclusively...was ineffective...benched...then moved to the SAM spot.

I don't remember once hearing Nolan saying they drafted Lawson strictly to be a passrusher. We don't know that is what they saw in him, or that a passrusher is all they saw in him. It was us that wanted, expected, and hoped that he could be that guy. I'm sure the 49ers would have liked that too, but that doesn't mean that is the sole reason they drafted him. The fact that he played at the will spot as a rookie also had a lot to do with the roster and lack of talent at that point. A ROOKIE Lawson switching positions, Brandon Moore, and Rod Green was all they had to play either of the 3-4 OLD spots. Manny started 13 games as a rookie because they had nothing else. Ya, they would have loved it if he became a dominant weak side passrusher but just because they tried him there it doesn't automatically = they drafted him solely for that purpose.

When he was drafted it was stated clearly that they were looking at pass rushers and while reviewing tape of Mario Williams, kept seeing Manny Lawson in the tapes. Given they had him start at the WILL spot in his rookie year as a primary pass rusher was also a strong indication of why he was drafted in the 1st round. You don't draft OLB's in the first round for run defense and to cover zones. You draft them in the first round for a 3-4 b/c they #1 have pass rush abilty #2 play the run well and #3 have the athleticism to drop back in zone from time to time.

My theory was that that IS what he was drafted for but it became obvious he was unsuccessful in the WILL spot. So then they tried to take advantage of his athleticism and moved him to the SAM. He packed on more muscle and weight to be able to play against the run better at the strong side (may have lead to his injury) and then subsequently started getting pulled in the Hybrid defense and last year for Brooks.

So, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest the coaching staff drafted him to be our pass rusher and then quickly realized he just didn't have "it" hence the benching on pass rushing downs for other players. I think the coaching staff are hand-cuffed with him b/c of this and have to keep finding guys such as Brandon Moore, Rod Green, Brooks, LaBoy, etc. BECAUSE Manny can't do what we drafted him to do and just isn't a great fit in our 3-4.

That's just MHO, of course but I don't think you'll find one fan on this board that disagrees with the coaching staff to bring in any of the aforementioned players to pass rush over Manny when we need it. And THAT is the problem in our 3-4 defense and why we have had to rely on coverage sacks and "team sacks" from all other positions.

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by PaulW:
He wants what Calvin Pace got and his production is similar so it's not far fetched for him to think he deserves it. I don't think he's worth that much to the 49ers but I'm sure some other team will overpay for him.

Agree

+1

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Gavintech:
How does everyone know what Lawson was "drafted for"?

Because they told us.


Also it dont take genius to figure out what 3-4 OLB is supposed to do.

And he played the WILL exclusively as a rookie and pass rush exclusively...was ineffective...benched...then moved to the SAM spot.

I don't remember once hearing Nolan saying they drafted Lawson strictly to be a passrusher. We don't know that is what they saw in him, or that a passrusher is all they saw in him. It was us that wanted, expected, and hoped that he could be that guy. I'm sure the 49ers would have liked that too, but that doesn't mean that is the sole reason they drafted him. The fact that he played at the will spot as a rookie also had a lot to do with the roster and lack of talent at that point. A ROOKIE Lawson switching positions, Brandon Moore, and Rod Green was all they had to play either of the 3-4 OLD spots. Manny started 13 games as a rookie because they had nothing else. Ya, they would have loved it if he became a dominant weak side passrusher but just because they tried him there it doesn't automatically = they drafted him solely for that purpose.

When he was drafted it was stated clearly that they were looking at pass rushers and while reviewing tape of Mario Williams, kept seeing Manny Lawson in the tapes. Given they had him start at the WILL spot in his rookie year as a primary pass rusher was also a strong indication of why he was drafted in the 1st round. You don't draft OLB's in the first round for run defense and to cover zones. You draft them in the first round for a 3-4 b/c they #1 have pass rush abilty #2 play the run well and #3 have the athleticism to drop back in zone from time to time.

My theory was that that IS what he was drafted for but it became obvious he was unsuccessful in the WILL spot. So then they tried to take advantage of his athleticism and moved him to the SAM. He packed on more muscle and weight to be able to play against the run better at the strong side (may have lead to his injury) and then subsequently started getting pulled in the Hybrid defense and last year for Brooks.

So, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest the coaching staff drafted him to be our pass rusher and then quickly realized he just didn't have "it" hence the benching on pass rushing downs for other players. I think the coaching staff are hand-cuffed with him b/c of this and have to keep finding guys such as Brandon Moore, Rod Green, Brooks, LaBoy, etc. BECAUSE Manny can't do what we drafted him to do and just isn't a great fit in our 3-4.

That's just MHO, of course but I don't think you'll find one fan on this board that disagrees with the coaching staff to bring in any of the aforementioned players to pass rush over Manny when we need it. And THAT is the problem in our 3-4 defense and why we have had to rely on coverage sacks and "team sacks" from all other positions.

I think they saw a great athlete and football player with potential to be an NFL passrusher. I read the story that they noticed him on a trip to take a look at Mario Williams, and that it was Manny that kept getting their attention, not Mario, but I never heard them say he was brought in specifically to be "that guy" (that was all from the fans and media). Even so he was said to be a project from the get go and only started as the weak side OLB as a rookie because of the lack of talent/depth at the position in 2006 (they didn't bring in Moore or Green because Manny wasn't cutting it, they were already on the team).

That was back when drafting a NCAA defensive end to play OLB in a 34 was just beginning to become popular, not normal as it has become today. You had a project rookie playing a new position that would not have started at Will if we had anyone else at the time. Do I think he will ever be a top 34 Will in the NFL, nope. But I do think that he is one of the more unique and special outside linebackers in the entire league and it's OBVIOUS the 49ers saw a complete football player, more than just a passrusher, when they drafted him. Ya, they must have saw some passrush ability too and thought they could develop that but there is no way that was the one reason and I get tired of people saying that is "the reason" they drafted him when that came from fans and media, not the team.

It doesn't really matter why he was originally drafted. There is a a whole new coaching staff, and for the most part a whole new team from a few years ago.

The question now, is what can he do, and what is it worth?

The past is the past.

IMO the guy has some skills, but does not really dominate like Julian Peterson. If he wants to get paid top dollar, I would let him play this year and test the open market in '11. If he blows up, then we missed out and he will probably get a big payday elsewhere like JP (and he will come to town and whoop up on us once a year), but my feeling is it will be more of the same and we will be able to resign him for a reasonable amount half way through the season, at the end of the season, or get a draft pick/free agent to fill his spot.

Originally posted by Gavintech:
I think they saw a great athlete and football player with potential to be an NFL passrusher. I read the story that they noticed him on a trip to take a look at Mario Williams, and that it was Manny that kept getting their attention, not Mario, but I never heard them say he was brought in specifically to be "that guy" (that was all from the fans and media). Even so he was said to be a project from the get go and only started as the weak side OLB as a rookie because of the lack of talent/depth at the position in 2006 (they didn't bring in Moore or Green because Manny wasn't cutting it, they were already on the team).

Perhaps but let's be real, we were looking for a pass rusher back then and it's not like they were reviewing film of Mario Williams to see how good of a run stopper he was. They were reviewing film of him b/c he could have been the next great pass rushing DE (a Richard Seymour-type). And what they saw was Lawson getting there at the same time as Mario. There was no way we'd get Mario at our pick and Lawson fit the bill as the pass rushing OLB in our 3-4 that we needed. The pass rushing wasn't the question - the question back then was his ability to convert from a college DE to an OLB in the 3-4 and his size (I can't remember exactly but read he had to gain some 25 pounds just to get to 230 pounds). Personally, I never thought he was a good fit for the 3-4 as an OLB. I always felt he was too small, too tall and didn't have the natural pass rushing ability and felt Mario drew attention for Manny to shine. We didn't have a Mario back then. We do now in Smith yet Manny is still ineffective.

My reference to Moore, Green, Brooks and perhaps, LaBoy and countless others is that THEY were all leaned on to provide a pass rush from the SAM position over Manny. And that is the point.

I mean, would you have Manny rush from either the SAM or WILL in ANY situation if we needed a sack/big play? I'd take any of these "journeymen" over Manny any day of the week!

Originally posted by Gavintech:
That was back when drafting a NCAA defensive end to play OLB in a 34 was just beginning to become popular, not normal as it has become today. You had a project rookie playing a new position that would not have started at Will if we had anyone else at the time. Do I think he will ever be a top 34 Will in the NFL, nope. But I do think that he is one of the more unique and special outside linebackers in the entire league and it's OBVIOUS the 49ers saw a complete football player, more than just a passrusher, when they drafted him. Ya, they must have saw some passrush ability too and thought they could develop that but there is no way that was the one reason and I get tired of people saying that is "the reason" they drafted him when that came from fans and media, not the team.

Hey, I agree with you mostly here. There was no denying his athleticism. When he was allowed to focus on one thing more (coverage) he played pretty well. Then his focus was on run defense (he bulked up and became a good run stopper) but when he was 100% healthy and asked to rush the passer (he couldn't do it consistently) and we were forced to go back to others to do this FOR him. That's a fact.

I agree that the coaching staff saw more then his pass rush ability when they drafted him. But IMHO, make no mistake about it, pass rushing was THE top reason he was drafted (to play the WILL) and that is THE top responsibility of both OLB's en route to stuffing the run and dropping back in zones in coverage. Manny was drafted as a play-maker. Period.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gavintech:
I think they saw a great athlete and football player with potential to be an NFL passrusher. I read the story that they noticed him on a trip to take a look at Mario Williams, and that it was Manny that kept getting their attention, not Mario, but I never heard them say he was brought in specifically to be "that guy" (that was all from the fans and media). Even so he was said to be a project from the get go and only started as the weak side OLB as a rookie because of the lack of talent/depth at the position in 2006 (they didn't bring in Moore or Green because Manny wasn't cutting it, they were already on the team).

Perhaps but let's be real, we were looking for a pass rusher back then and it's not like they were reviewing film of Mario Williams to see how good of a run stopper he was. They were reviewing film of him b/c he could have been the next great pass rushing DE (a Richard Seymour-type). And what they saw was Lawson getting there at the same time as Mario. There was no way we'd get Mario at our pick and Lawson fit the bill as the pass rushing OLB in our 3-4 that we needed. The pass rushing wasn't the question - the question back then was his ability to convert from a college DE to an OLB in the 3-4 and his size (I can't remember exactly but read he had to gain some 25 pounds just to get to 230 pounds). Personally, I never thought he was a good fit for the 3-4 as an OLB. I always felt he was too small, too tall and didn't have the natural pass rushing ability and felt Mario drew attention for Manny to shine. We didn't have a Mario back then. We do now in Smith yet Manny is still ineffective.

My reference to Moore, Green, Brooks and perhaps, LaBoy and countless others is that THEY were all leaned on to provide a pass rush from the SAM position over Manny. And that is the point.

I mean, would you have Manny rush from either the SAM or WILL in ANY situation if we needed a sack/big play? I'd take any of these "journeymen" over Manny any day of the week!

Yes I would. I think Manny should be an every down player on most series'. I'm very interested to see how Brooks does this year, LaBoy too, but at this point I have more confidence in Manny than either of them AT THE SAM OR WILL no matter how much I agree with you that Manny is better suited as a SAM in our D.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gavintech:
I think they saw a great athlete and football player with potential to be an NFL passrusher. I read the story that they noticed him on a trip to take a look at Mario Williams, and that it was Manny that kept getting their attention, not Mario, but I never heard them say he was brought in specifically to be "that guy" (that was all from the fans and media). Even so he was said to be a project from the get go and only started as the weak side OLB as a rookie because of the lack of talent/depth at the position in 2006 (they didn't bring in Moore or Green because Manny wasn't cutting it, they were already on the team).

Perhaps but let's be real, we were looking for a pass rusher back then and it's not like they were reviewing film of Mario Williams to see how good of a run stopper he was. They were reviewing film of him b/c he could have been the next great pass rushing DE (a Richard Seymour-type). And what they saw was Lawson getting there at the same time as Mario. There was no way we'd get Mario at our pick and Lawson fit the bill as the pass rushing OLB in our 3-4 that we needed. The pass rushing wasn't the question - the question back then was his ability to convert from a college DE to an OLB in the 3-4 and his size (I can't remember exactly but read he had to gain some 25 pounds just to get to 230 pounds). Personally, I never thought he was a good fit for the 3-4 as an OLB. I always felt he was too small, too tall and didn't have the natural pass rushing ability and felt Mario drew attention for Manny to shine. We didn't have a Mario back then. We do now in Smith yet Manny is still ineffective.

My reference to Moore, Green, Brooks and perhaps, LaBoy and countless others is that THEY were all leaned on to provide a pass rush from the SAM position over Manny. And that is the point.

I mean, would you have Manny rush from either the SAM or WILL in ANY situation if we needed a sack/big play? I'd take any of these "journeymen" over Manny any day of the week!

Yes I would. I think Manny should be an every down player on most series'. I'm very interested to see how Brooks does this year, LaBoy too, but at this point I have more confidence in Manny than either of them AT THE SAM OR WILL no matter how much I agree with you that Manny is better suited as a SAM in our D.

OK, that's cool. So YOU'RE that fan then, eh? Kidding!

Well for now, Brooks is taking the first team snaps at SAM for Manny (thanks Manny) while Haralson starts back at WILL spelled by LaBoy (I believe).

I think it's safe to say this is getting really interesting to watch unfold. When are the first mandatory meetings? Will Manny be there as Singletary assumed? We shall see!

Either way, I suspect you'll get your wish and Brooks and LaBoy will get plenty of snaps whether Manny is playing for us or not.