Smashmouth 49ers...I like it. (Bucking the NFL trend has its advantages)

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I've read and heard alot of criticism that the league is moving to a passing league and having a free safety who can cover like a corner is essential.

I've read that the Niners building up front to crush people is too "old-school" and won't work in todays NFL.

I think thats all bunk. ;-)

The NFL is cyclical. People act as tho the NFL moves in one direction and it never comes back around again. That just isn't the case. Just look at the 3-4 defense....it comes and goes...just like everything else.

Follow me here. The league goes after smaller, quicker guys to counter pass happy offenses (West Coast O, Run and Shoot, No Huddle?). Now, everyone on the field is small and fast and you have neutralized the faster pass-happy O.

Along comes a team with an O-Line that everages over 320 lbs and simply MAULS you. It is a run first team that can pass to keep you honest. The D just crushes those streaking WRs and the safeties make those smaller faster guys pay every time they make a catch.

Do you know what I just described? The Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's. Most of the league was moving to the pass-happy west coast offense or K-Gun or any number of other pass offenses. The Cowboys came along with a MASSIVE line and some speed and size on D and won 3 SB's.

I'm not saying that the Niners are the Cowboys. I'm saying that sometimes bucking the trend makes you unique in a league of parity and being the only team in the Division that will hit you in the mouth has some advantages.

Ahhh but I think this team is built to do both things equally well. If Alex didn't take over when he did. Say he didn't even get off the bench. Then Hill would still be here Alex would have been traded and we would be pretty much one dimensional for all intents and purposes. I think the Lions would have happily given us a 5th rounder for either QB.

But things went the other way. Smith having the tools in the box can use them. Davis, Walker, Tree, Frank, Teddy G., Morgan Hill. I know that people aren't sold on Hill but I think that he'd be a solid 3rd. Especially when our QB has protection. You put Joe or Steve behind any of the last 5 Lines this team has fielded. They couldn't get to 3rd before having to dump off get sacked or turn the ball over. Most instances they'd have been lying on their back trying to shake the cobwebs. Look at how many reads THEY had the time for. I think that on one play Joe had 6 reads because he couldn't dump and instead had to go to scramble drill.

I'm not comparing Smith with either of them. I'm comparing Lines. You get what you pay for. We paid for crap expecting greatness. Well we got what we paid for. NOW, however, we have a reason to believe.

~Ceadder

Uhhh...hate to break it to you guys but having a stout d and a power running game isn't "bucking" current NFL trends. I think some Zoners just can't get over that this isn't the 49ers of old. Yes there are some teams out there with high flying offenses but they all have elite quarterbacks.

High flying offenses are fun to watch but they are rarely what put teams over the top when it comes to the playoffs. Marino never won a ring and Warner and Peyton would have more than one already if they had a defense built to stop the run and a stronger running attack.

Does anybody remember when the Patriots beat the holy crap out of the Rams by delivering CRUSHING hits on Rams offensive players to make them think twice? That was a huge factor in winning that Super Bowl.

Hell, Eli won one and it certainly wasn't all his doing, it was a powerful defensive line and a relentless commitment to a running attack.

Originally posted by GoldenIowa49er:
Uhhh...hate to break it to you guys but having a stout d and a power running game isn't "bucking" current NFL trends. I think some Zoners just can't get over that this isn't the 49ers of old. Yes there are some teams out there with high flying offenses but they all have elite quarterbacks.

High flying offenses are fun to watch but they are rarely what put teams over the top when it comes to the playoffs. Marino never won a ring and Warner and Peyton would have more than one already if they had a defense built to stop the run and a stronger running attack.

Does anybody remember when the Patriots beat the holy crap out of the Rams by delivering CRUSHING hits on Rams offensive players to make them think twice? That was a huge factor in winning that Super Bowl.

Hell, Eli won one and it certainly wasn't all his doing, it was a powerful defensive line and a relentless commitment to a running attack.

I hate to break it to YOU, but teams throwing the ball more and more IS the NFL trend.

Yes, there are still teams that don't play that way and have success, but the current NFL trand IS to go with a much more wide open pass-happy offense. Thats why there is such a premium on CBs and fast Safeties who can cover.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by GoldenIowa49er:
Uhhh...hate to break it to you guys but having a stout d and a power running game isn't "bucking" current NFL trends. I think some Zoners just can't get over that this isn't the 49ers of old. Yes there are some teams out there with high flying offenses but they all have elite quarterbacks.

High flying offenses are fun to watch but they are rarely what put teams over the top when it comes to the playoffs. Marino never won a ring and Warner and Peyton would have more than one already if they had a defense built to stop the run and a stronger running attack.

Does anybody remember when the Patriots beat the holy crap out of the Rams by delivering CRUSHING hits on Rams offensive players to make them think twice? That was a huge factor in winning that Super Bowl.

Hell, Eli won one and it certainly wasn't all his doing, it was a powerful defensive line and a relentless commitment to a running attack.

I hate to break it to YOU, but teams throwing the ball more and more IS the NFL trend.

Yes, there are still teams that don't play that way and have success, but the current NFL trand IS to go with a much more wide open pass-happy offense. Thats why there is such a premium on CBs and fast Safeties who can cover.

Alot of teams nowadays have stout lines and they throw the ball over the place. Take a look at the Saints. They can pound the ball down your throat, and they have the best passing attack in football. Minnesota has the biggest line in football and AP. When a team wants to play smash mouth football nowadays they're just admitting their QB isn't up to passing the ball down the field.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 28, 2010 at 16:32:16 ]

Originally posted by GoldenIowa49er:
Uhhh...hate to break it to you guys but having a stout d and a power running game isn't "bucking" current NFL trends. I think some Zoners just can't get over that this isn't the 49ers of old. Yes there are some teams out there with high flying offenses but they all have elite quarterbacks.

High flying offenses are fun to watch but they are rarely what put teams over the top when it comes to the playoffs. Marino never won a ring and Warner and Peyton would have more than one already if they had a defense built to stop the run and a stronger running attack.

Does anybody remember when the Patriots beat the holy crap out of the Rams by delivering CRUSHING hits on Rams offensive players to make them think twice? That was a huge factor in winning that Super Bowl.

Hell, Eli won one and it certainly wasn't all his doing, it was a powerful defensive line and a relentless commitment to a running attack.

I fully support having a great D. It's the running attack emphasis that has me scratching my head. NE definitely won its first SB with a stellar defense but they won a shoot out for their second SB and have consistently over the past decade become a more pass-oriented team. NYG won a SB because their DL played suberbly, then promptly missed the playoffs the next year after their best WR shot himself. Arizona made it to the SB on the strength of Warner to Fitzgerald. Indy is in the playoffs every year because of Manning, as is NE because of Brady, as was Philly because of McNabb. Can a team win games in today's NFL with a great running game? You bet. But I sort of want a team that's good for a decade, not just one year. And to do that in today's NFL you need 2 things - a franchise QB and a solid receiving corp, not Emmitt Smith and a 2000 lb. offensive line. How many playoff wins did LT get with the Chargers? How many playoff wins did Priest Holmes or Larry Johnson get with the Chiefs? How many playoff wins did NYJ get with Curtis Martin? How's Jacksonville doing with MJD? Or St. Louis with Stephen Jackson? Some of these guys are HOF running backs ... Is it just a coincidence that Minnesota went to the NFC Championship only after they added Favre, who made studs out of Sidney Rice and Percy Harvin? I mean, they had Adrian Peterson for a couple of years before Favre came. Face it, the rules are set up to aid the passing game. And the best teams TODAY are the teams that are pass-oriented to take advantage of the rules. So when I hear that we're bucking the trend, that means to me that we're not taking advantage of the rules, which is sort of dumb.

the way to stop a top offense is to keep them on the sidelines run the ball and play defense look at the ny giants when they beat the patriots and buffalo in the superbowl steelers beat the cards baltimore the cowboys chicago so its been done so i like what we are building here in san fran we have to be able to put games away a couple of first downs and the game is over remember minn indy seatle philly games great draft

Originally posted by NCommand:
Speaking of old school...

Things that make you go, "Hmmmm."

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Good points, Marv. The Niners are being remade in their coaches image and that may not be a bad thing. They are going to try and punish people on both sides of the ball. The offense appears designed around a smash mouth running attack, but should open things up for the play action passing game. Bottom line, the Niners should be better than before just because the brass has made it a point to fix the offensive line.

Nice post & I agree.

I agree also as long as Singletary remains flexible to switch to a more wide open style -- such as the shotgun last year -- as the situation dictates

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by GoldenIowa49er:
Uhhh...hate to break it to you guys but having a stout d and a power running game isn't "bucking" current NFL trends. I think some Zoners just can't get over that this isn't the 49ers of old. Yes there are some teams out there with high flying offenses but they all have elite quarterbacks.

High flying offenses are fun to watch but they are rarely what put teams over the top when it comes to the playoffs. Marino never won a ring and Warner and Peyton would have more than one already if they had a defense built to stop the run and a stronger running attack.

Does anybody remember when the Patriots beat the holy crap out of the Rams by delivering CRUSHING hits on Rams offensive players to make them think twice? That was a huge factor in winning that Super Bowl.

Hell, Eli won one and it certainly wasn't all his doing, it was a powerful defensive line and a relentless commitment to a running attack.

I hate to break it to YOU, but teams throwing the ball more and more IS the NFL trend.

Yes, there are still teams that don't play that way and have success, but the current NFL trand IS to go with a much more wide open pass-happy offense. Thats why there is such a premium on CBs and fast Safeties who can cover.

I think the current trend is a small percentage of all schools of thought and there aren't as many teams that truly care to pass more than relying on the run. It's only a trend because the 24 hour news ESPN has nothing better to talk about. The only teams that that follow the current 'trend' are teams with elite quarterbacks. We don't have one and most teams don't. Teams have had success over the years practicing NFL 'trends' by:

1. Having a prototypical quarterback
2. Having a running quarterback
3. Having a stable of running backs
4. Relying on defense to win games
5. Being pass happy
6. Running the Wildcat
7. Stuff I can't think of at the moment

The NFL is cyclical and we aren't 'bucking' jack crap. I call Sing's vision fundamental football and nothing more. More often than not, a team that wins a super bowl has a stout defense, a good running game, and at least a decent offense. I call that a trend, let's not buck it.

We have all the tools to be Smash Mouth but we can also run the spread if need be.

Hopefully it all comes together for us...

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Well if those 5 man can become cohesive, maybe it will free up Vernon to run routes.

Wow, that's a really good point. It hadn't even occurred to me, that if our new line can block on their own, Vernon will be free to take off and challenge secondaries even more. Take that equation, add Crabtree and Ginn blazing down the field, and other teams will have a lot more to think about.

If you look at how the saints beat the Tards and Bretts Vices(yes as in Vicodine) You will notice that it was the repeated legal and nonlegal ''remember me hits'' to future HOF qbs that ultimatly led to their not quite decisive victories. On D we have amassed many players with an obvious penchant towards delivering the type of hits that are capable of rendering an offence inoperable. With Goldson , Clements , Willis, Lawson,Mlewis, and my main man Mays lurking and buzzing around people will be looking twice before crossing the street. Dbs are still a big ? on an otherwise stellar D but with the recievers getting smaller and faster.... Hey if the Saints can do it to Qbs why not us with Wr. I am only hoping this works but hey as in baseball ''everyone likes the big hit". Always my favorite part about Lott was waiting for the next BIG ONE. We will be doing alot of "bucking" this year lets judt hope were not blowing (coverages ofcourse) and saying ''bucking'' Brett again at the end of the year..We will see
In terms of the offence we did just get some hugeness but it was at very needed positions but I dont see us as overly big or run biased. We may not have a true change of pace back but Gore ditched the entire hawks D twice in a game so he is fast enough and will stay that way with Dixon taking a few 3rd down 8 man fronts away from him. With Ginn , Davis , Crabb, Morgan we have a Wr set that is both big And fast so at any moment we can take a shot with some real weapons. I dont see us reverting to run run run approach because of the progress balance was making at the end of the year for passing and running stats( the fans liked it too!) plus we are to talented to be one dimensional.

[ Edited by matthewabbit on Apr 28, 2010 at 22:48:46 ]

Originally posted by matthewabbit:
If you look at how the saints beat the Tards and Bretts Vices(yes as in Vicodine) You will notice that it was the repeated legal and nonlegal ''remember me hits'' to future HOF qbs that ultimatly led to their not quite decisive victories. On D we have amassed many players with an obvious penchant towards delivering the type of hits that are capable of rendering an offence inoperable. With Goldson , Clements , Willis, Lawson,Mlewis, and my main man Mays lurking and buzzing around people will be looking twice before crossing the street. Dbs are still a big ? on an otherwise stellar D but with the recievers getting smaller and faster.... Hey if the Saints can do it to Qbs why not us with Wr. I am only hoping this works but hey as in baseball ''everyone likes the big hit". Always my favorite part about Lott was waiting for the next BIG ONE. We will be doing alot of "bucking" this year lets judt hope were not blowing (coverages ofcourse) and saying ''bucking'' Brett again at the end of the year..We will see
In terms of the offence we did just get some hugeness but it was at very needed positions but I dont see us as overly big or run biased. We may not have a true change of pace back but Gore ditched the entire hawks D twice in a game so he is fast enough and will stay that way with Dixon taking a few 3rd down 8 man fronts away from him. With Ginn , Davis , Crabb, Morgan we have a Wr set that is both big And fast so at any moment we can take a shot with some real weapons. I dont see us reverting to run run run approach because of the progress balance was making at the end of the year for passing and running stats( the fans liked it too!) plus we are to talented to be one dimensional.

One can only hope you are right. The talent is in place now. As has been mentioned before, failure this year is an indictment of the coaching staff. I am terrified we will throw all of this potential away on another season of unimaginative offensive game plans. There is not a team in the league talented enough to win consistently running a transparent 5 page play book. I am all for being physical and hitting people, but that does not mean you have to be predictable.

Just like the teams of the glory days, that were pegged as finesse teams but were actually extremely physical, I hope we get pegged as a physical team but mix in enough finesse to keep opponents guessing. I think we all can agree that in the end its a matter of degrees, but to win consistently in the NFL it takes both.

D is where we seem to be more smashmouth suited , our O simply dosent have the personal to be a dictating smashmouth squad as our established talent is elsewhere. .and plus what can be bad about a smashM D?
I agree 100% on the Raye(boring, predictable,antiquated,plaing not to loose hard to watch crap,) thing and would love to see Alexs mental muscle at least tested a little with audible options. Who knows it could be a strength of his as he has more time pre then post snap to survey a D and isnt he a cerebrial qb or somthing like that. Certainly anything is better then last year throwing Frank to the (8man)front again and again with one of the worst lines in the league . you would think this year we could really catch some people off guard with a audible or playction during these fronts. all the speed we just picked up has to be represented in the playbook.. i hope

Originally posted by matthewabbit:
D is where we seem to be more smashmouth suited , our O simply dosent have the personal to be a dictating smashmouth squad as our established talent is elsewhere. .and plus what can be bad about a smashM D?
I agree 100% on the Raye(boring, predictable,antiquated,plaing not to loose hard to watch crap,) thing and would love to see Alexs mental muscle at least tested a little with audible options. Who knows it could be a strength of his as he has more time pre then post snap to survey a D and isnt he a cerebrial qb or somthing like that. Certainly anything is better then last year throwing Frank to the (8man)front again and again with one of the worst lines in the league . you would think this year we could really catch some people off guard with a audible or playction during these fronts. all the speed we just picked up has to be represented in the playbook.. i hope

It sounded like Alex had a lot more freedom to call audibles and change blocking assignment up at the line during OTA's. Now that we have Jimmy Raye for a second consecutive year, they can build on the offense instead of having to start over for another OC. That will pay dividends when the offense can run a bigger playbook, including older ones that they've already polished. For instance, Vernon's highly successful "Skinny Post" pattern. Now that teams are looking for it, we can psyche them out and add a kink to it. Then they won't know if we're going to use the new variation or stick with the old route...keeps defenses guessing and second-guessing their guesses, which would not be possible without previous successes.

Right now, defenses know our playbook almost as well as our offense! I think it's an issue of familiarity...a lack of it on our team, and too much familiarity with opposing defenses. The 49ers will probably be one of the biggest beneficiaries of this off-season in the NFL.