Smashmouth 49ers...I like it. (Bucking the NFL trend has its advantages)

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I've read and heard alot of criticism that the league is moving to a passing league and having a free safety who can cover like a corner is essential.

I've read that the Niners building up front to crush people is too "old-school" and won't work in todays NFL.

I think thats all bunk. ;-)

The NFL is cyclical. People act as tho the NFL moves in one direction and it never comes back around again. That just isn't the case. Just look at the 3-4 defense....it comes and goes...just like everything else.

Follow me here. The league goes after smaller, quicker guys to counter pass happy offenses (West Coast O, Run and Shoot, No Huddle?). Now, everyone on the field is small and fast and you have neutralized the faster pass-happy O.

Along comes a team with an O-Line that everages over 320 lbs and simply MAULS you. It is a run first team that can pass to keep you honest. The D just crushes those streaking WRs and the safeties make those smaller faster guys pay every time they make a catch.

Do you know what I just described? The Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's. Most of the league was moving to the pass-happy west coast offense or K-Gun or any number of other pass offenses. The Cowboys came along with a MASSIVE line and some speed and size on D and won 3 SB's.

I'm not saying that the Niners are the Cowboys. I'm saying that sometimes bucking the trend makes you unique in a league of parity and being the only team in the Division that will hit you in the mouth has some advantages.

It is a good thing for the 49ers to finally have a vision and identity. I don't even have a problem with the 49ers bucking the NFL trend.

The one problem is that to win and contend for SB's consistently, you have to have a franchise QB. The Cowboys example you referenced above is a good one...except that they had a franchise QB in Aikman. The 49ers still do not know what they have in Smith. If he fails this year or becomes simply a "manage the game" type QB, they can still potentially win a SB if everything goes right in a given year but it is unlikely they will contend year after year.

Originally posted by niner_empire:

Originally posted by 9erred:
Nolan tried to make the niners the Baltimore Ravens, sending the franchise to sub 200 yard qb offensive performances week in and week out.

Last year McCloughan tried to draft to make Sing happy. Drafting Coffee, a big SEC runner, Bear Pascoe a blocking TE, etc. He declared we will run, run, run. Well that did not work, so they went to the spread offense and voila it worked.

Now the niners once again are drafting a SEC power running back and another blocking TE. Soundls llike ground hog day to me.

They need a change of pace back, not 3 rb's who can only run up the middle.

word. the truth is. we shouldnt confine our selves to being a power running team or a spread pass happy team. we need BALANCE and the flexibility to adjust our gameplan according to the oppositions strenghts and weaknesses. this isnt the 80's you cant simply IMPOSE your will on someone.cant run up the gut against a 9 man front, we need the flexibility where alex can audible to a pass if they stack the box. this is a thinking mans game.

That is the beauty of the 2 TE set with our TEs....Both of our TEs are in the big WR mold....They are athletic and fast enough to go from a 2 TE on the line formation to motion to a spread formation...This will cause a LB or S to cover which is a matchup our guys win....Also works the other way.....On 1st down if the niners come out in a 4wr set (2 of which are TEs) and the D goes Nickel or Dime they can the audible into a power run formation and create a mismatch that way....

Originally posted by btwagner:

Originally posted by niner_empire:

Originally posted by 9erred:
Nolan tried to make the niners the Baltimore Ravens, sending the franchise to sub 200 yard qb offensive performances week in and week out.

Last year McCloughan tried to draft to make Sing happy. Drafting Coffee, a big SEC runner, Bear Pascoe a blocking TE, etc. He declared we will run, run, run. Well that did not work, so they went to the spread offense and voila it worked.

Now the niners once again are drafting a SEC power running back and another blocking TE. Soundls llike ground hog day to me.

They need a change of pace back, not 3 rb's who can only run up the middle.

word. the truth is. we shouldnt confine our selves to being a power running team or a spread pass happy team. we need BALANCE and the flexibility to adjust our gameplan according to the oppositions strenghts and weaknesses. this isnt the 80's you cant simply IMPOSE your will on someone.cant run up the gut against a 9 man front, we need the flexibility where alex can audible to a pass if they stack the box. this is a thinking mans game.

That is the beauty of the 2 TE set with our TEs....Both of our TEs are in the big WR mold....They are athletic and fast enough to go from a 2 TE on the line formation to motion to a spread formation...This will cause a LB or S to cover which is a matchup our guys win....Also works the other way.....On 1st down if the niners come out in a 4wr set (2 of which are TEs) and the D goes Nickel or Dime they can the audible into a power run formation and create a mismatch that way....

yeah we do have the personnel to create huge mismatches. but judging from last year. i didint see alex audible much. hopefully this year they give him more freedom to use that great mind of his

Good post. It worked out well for the Jets last year.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I've read and heard alot of criticism that the league is moving to a passing league and having a free safety who can cover like a corner is essential.

I've read that the Niners building up front to crush people is too "old-school" and won't work in todays NFL.

I think thats all bunk. ;-)

The NFL is cyclical. People act as tho the NFL moves in one direction and it never comes back around again. That just isn't the case. Just look at the 3-4 defense....it comes and goes...just like everything else.

Follow me here. The league goes after smaller, quicker guys to counter pass happy offenses (West Coast O, Run and Shoot, No Huddle?). Now, everyone on the field is small and fast and you have neutralized the faster pass-happy O.

Along comes a team with an O-Line that everages over 320 lbs and simply MAULS you. It is a run first team that can pass to keep you honest. The D just crushes those streaking WRs and the safeties make those smaller faster guys pay every time they make a catch.

Do you know what I just described? The Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's. Most of the league was moving to the pass-happy west coast offense or K-Gun or any number of other pass offenses. The Cowboys came along with a MASSIVE line and some speed and size on D and won 3 SB's.

I'm not saying that the Niners are the Cowboys. I'm saying that sometimes bucking the trend makes you unique in a league of parity and being the only team in the Division that will hit you in the mouth has some advantages.

finally someone looking at it in a positive way! I totally agree with you.

Originally posted by niner_empire:

Originally posted by btwagner:

Originally posted by niner_empire:

Originally posted by 9erred:
Nolan tried to make the niners the Baltimore Ravens, sending the franchise to sub 200 yard qb offensive performances week in and week out.

Last year McCloughan tried to draft to make Sing happy. Drafting Coffee, a big SEC runner, Bear Pascoe a blocking TE, etc. He declared we will run, run, run. Well that did not work, so they went to the spread offense and voila it worked.

Now the niners once again are drafting a SEC power running back and another blocking TE. Soundls llike ground hog day to me.

They need a change of pace back, not 3 rb's who can only run up the middle.

word. the truth is. we shouldnt confine our selves to being a power running team or a spread pass happy team. we need BALANCE and the flexibility to adjust our gameplan according to the oppositions strenghts and weaknesses. this isnt the 80's you cant simply IMPOSE your will on someone.cant run up the gut against a 9 man front, we need the flexibility where alex can audible to a pass if they stack the box. this is a thinking mans game.

That is the beauty of the 2 TE set with our TEs....Both of our TEs are in the big WR mold....They are athletic and fast enough to go from a 2 TE on the line formation to motion to a spread formation...This will cause a LB or S to cover which is a matchup our guys win....Also works the other way.....On 1st down if the niners come out in a 4wr set (2 of which are TEs) and the D goes Nickel or Dime they can the audible into a power run formation and create a mismatch that way....

yeah we do have the personnel to create huge mismatches. but judging from last year. i didint see alex audible much. hopefully this year they give him more freedom to use that great mind of his

Well last season Alex (and everyone else) was just beginning to learn the offense. Being year 2, I'd hope Alex and company get the offense down and are given the ability to audible, assuming he shows he can handle it.

Some excellent points here. I beieve this team is headed in the right direction. All the Singletary haters need to be patient. We're on our way back. I also agree with letting Alex Smith have some freedom to audible. He's going to definitely have more time. It's just a matter of being able to read defenses better than he has. The defense looks rock solid.

Originally posted by 9erred:
Nolan tried to make the niners the Baltimore Ravens, sending the franchise to sub 200 yard qb offensive performances week in and week out.

Last year McCloughan tried to draft to make Sing happy. Drafting Coffee, a big SEC runner, Bear Pascoe a blocking TE, etc. He declared we will run, run, run. Well that did not work, so they went to the spread offense and voila it worked.

Now the niners once again are drafting a SEC power running back and another blocking TE. Soundls llike ground hog day to me.

They need a change of pace back, not 3 rb's who can only run up the middle.

I wouldn't disagree with that....but they took a RB in the 6th round, so there may not have been a scat back that they valued anywhere near as high as Dixon.

Originally posted by kem99:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I've read and heard alot of criticism that the league is moving to a passing league and having a free safety who can cover like a corner is essential.

I've read that the Niners building up front to crush people is too "old-school" and won't work in todays NFL.

I think thats all bunk. ;-)

The NFL is cyclical. People act as tho the NFL moves in one direction and it never comes back around again. That just isn't the case. Just look at the 3-4 defense....it comes and goes...just like everything else.

Follow me here. The league goes after smaller, quicker guys to counter pass happy offenses (West Coast O, Run and Shoot, No Huddle?). Now, everyone on the field is small and fast and you have neutralized the faster pass-happy O.

Along comes a team with an O-Line that everages over 320 lbs and simply MAULS you. It is a run first team that can pass to keep you honest. The D just crushes those streaking WRs and the safeties make those smaller faster guys pay every time they make a catch.

Do you know what I just described? The Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's. Most of the league was moving to the pass-happy west coast offense or K-Gun or any number of other pass offenses. The Cowboys came along with a MASSIVE line and some speed and size on D and won 3 SB's.

I'm not saying that the Niners are the Cowboys. I'm saying that sometimes bucking the trend makes you unique in a league of parity and being the only team in the Division that will hit you in the mouth has some advantages.

It is a good thing for the 49ers to finally have a vision and identity. I don't even have a problem with the 49ers bucking the NFL trend.

The one problem is that to win and contend for SB's consistently, you have to have a franchise QB. The Cowboys example you referenced above is a good one...except that they had a franchise QB in Aikman. The 49ers still do not know what they have in Smith. If he fails this year or becomes simply a "manage the game" type QB, they can still potentially win a SB if everything goes right in a given year but it is unlikely they will contend year after year.

Aikman won 3 SBs and thats why people think of him so highly. The reality tho is that Aikman struggled badly before Norv Turner turned him around and he never threw more than 23 TDs in a season...and that was his ONLY 20+ TD season.

Troy Aikman
Year Team G GS ATT CMP % YDS PA TD INT RATE
2000 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 156 262 59.5 1,632 6.2 7 14 64.3
1999 Dallas Cowboys 14 14 263 442 59.5 2,964 6.7 17 12 81.1
1998 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 187 315 59.4 2,330 7.4 12 5 88.5
1997 Dallas Cowboys 16 16 292 518 56.4 3,283 6.3 19 12 78.0
1996 Dallas Cowboys 15 15 296 465 63.7 3,126 6.7 12 13 80.1
1995 Dallas Cowboys 16 16 280 432 64.8 3,304 7.6 16 7 93.6
1994 Dallas Cowboys 14 14 233 361 64.5 2,676 7.4 13 12 84.9
1993 Dallas Cowboys 14 14 271 392 69.1 3,100 7.9 15 6 99.0
1992 Dallas Cowboys 16 16 302 473 63.8 3,445 7.3 23 14 89.5
1991 Dallas Cowboys 12 12 237 363 65.3 2,754 7.6 11 10 86.7
1990 Dallas Cowboys 15 -- 226 399 56.6 2,579 6.5 11 18 66.6
1989 Dallas Cowboys 11 -- 155 293 52.9 1,749 6.0 9 18 55.7

Alex Smith
2009 San Francisco 49ers 11 10 225 372 60.5 2,350 6.3 18 12 81.5
2006 San Francisco 49ers 16 16 257 442 58.1 2,890 6.5 16 16 74.8
2005 San Francisco 49ers 9 7 84 165 50.9 875 5.3 1 11 40.8

To be fair, I took out Alexs two injury seasons (he has 2 TDs and 4 INTS in one...and 3 of those INTS came in a game he should never have been allowed to play in...freakin Nolan).

Now...before people get all up in arms, I'm not saying Alex is Troy Aikman. #s also don't tell the whole story. Even if Troy doesn't put up big numbers, he put them up when they needed them. I'm not gonna get in another Alex Smith debate.

My only point in comparing these stats is that Dallas didn't have what you are calling a "Franchise" QB. They had a guy with the best O-Line in the NFL and #22 behind a very good QB. Its the LINE that made Dallas a champion.

I think what I'm trying to say is the Aikman bar isn't that hard to hurdle.

It doesn't matter how our team is built if the Offensive coordinator doesn't utilize it correctly. I've got to say that the last few years we have all done a lot of complaining of the way Mr. Raye has been calling the plays. If he can maximize our talent then we should be a playoff and beyond, caliber team.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by kem99:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I've read and heard alot of criticism that the league is moving to a passing league and having a free safety who can cover like a corner is essential.

I've read that the Niners building up front to crush people is too "old-school" and won't work in todays NFL.

I think thats all bunk. ;-)

The NFL is cyclical. People act as tho the NFL moves in one direction and it never comes back around again. That just isn't the case. Just look at the 3-4 defense....it comes and goes...just like everything else.

Follow me here. The league goes after smaller, quicker guys to counter pass happy offenses (West Coast O, Run and Shoot, No Huddle?). Now, everyone on the field is small and fast and you have neutralized the faster pass-happy O.

Along comes a team with an O-Line that everages over 320 lbs and simply MAULS you. It is a run first team that can pass to keep you honest. The D just crushes those streaking WRs and the safeties make those smaller faster guys pay every time they make a catch.

Do you know what I just described? The Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's. Most of the league was moving to the pass-happy west coast offense or K-Gun or any number of other pass offenses. The Cowboys came along with a MASSIVE line and some speed and size on D and won 3 SB's.

I'm not saying that the Niners are the Cowboys. I'm saying that sometimes bucking the trend makes you unique in a league of parity and being the only team in the Division that will hit you in the mouth has some advantages.

It is a good thing for the 49ers to finally have a vision and identity. I don't even have a problem with the 49ers bucking the NFL trend.

The one problem is that to win and contend for SB's consistently, you have to have a franchise QB. The Cowboys example you referenced above is a good one...except that they had a franchise QB in Aikman. The 49ers still do not know what they have in Smith. If he fails this year or becomes simply a "manage the game" type QB, they can still potentially win a SB if everything goes right in a given year but it is unlikely they will contend year after year.

Aikman won 3 SBs and thats why people think of him so highly. The reality tho is that Aikman struggled badly before Norv Turner turned him around and he never threw more than 23 TDs in a season...and that was his ONLY 20+ TD season.

Troy Aikman
Year Team G GS ATT CMP % YDS PA TD INT RATE
2000 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 156 262 59.5 1,632 6.2 7 14 64.3
1999 Dallas Cowboys 14 14 263 442 59.5 2,964 6.7 17 12 81.1
1998 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 187 315 59.4 2,330 7.4 12 5 88.5
1997 Dallas Cowboys 16 16 292 518 56.4 3,283 6.3 19 12 78.0
1996 Dallas Cowboys 15 15 296 465 63.7 3,126 6.7 12 13 80.1
1995 Dallas Cowboys 16 16 280 432 64.8 3,304 7.6 16 7 93.6
1994 Dallas Cowboys 14 14 233 361 64.5 2,676 7.4 13 12 84.9
1993 Dallas Cowboys 14 14 271 392 69.1 3,100 7.9 15 6 99.0
1992 Dallas Cowboys 16 16 302 473 63.8 3,445 7.3 23 14 89.5
1991 Dallas Cowboys 12 12 237 363 65.3 2,754 7.6 11 10 86.7
1990 Dallas Cowboys 15 -- 226 399 56.6 2,579 6.5 11 18 66.6
1989 Dallas Cowboys 11 -- 155 293 52.9 1,749 6.0 9 18 55.7

Alex Smith
2009 San Francisco 49ers 11 10 225 372 60.5 2,350 6.3 18 12 81.5
2006 San Francisco 49ers 16 16 257 442 58.1 2,890 6.5 16 16 74.8
2005 San Francisco 49ers 9 7 84 165 50.9 875 5.3 1 11 40.8

To be fair, I took out Alexs two injury seasons (he has 2 TDs and 4 INTS in one...and 3 of those INTS came in a game he should never have been allowed to play in...freakin Nolan).

Now...before people get all up in arms, I'm not saying Alex is Troy Aikman. #s also don't tell the whole story. Even if Troy doesn't put up big numbers, he put them up when they needed them. I'm not gonna get in another Alex Smith debate.

My only point in comparing these stats is that Dallas didn't have what you are calling a "Franchise" QB. They had a guy with the best O-Line in the NFL and #22 behind a very good QB. Its the LINE that made Dallas a champion.

I think what I'm trying to say is the Aikman bar isn't that hard to hurdle.

This would be a great analysis...if this was baseball and not football. Stats are important but they don't tell the whole story. Aikman's a HOF QB, that's a fact. Saying he was a product of those around him doesn't really get you any where because you could say the same about just about any HOF QB, including Montana and Young. In a USA Today piece in 2007, 10 NFL reporters and editors voted Aikman 1 of the top 25 players of the past 25 years (#20 specifically). All in all, as much as I hated him as a 49er fan, he was pretty good, not Montana good, but pretty good. The 49ers would be in very good shape if Smith could end up having Aikman's career. Heck, that would mean another HOF QB.

Originally posted by Lifer:
Part of the reason why Bill Walsh's teams were so effective early on is exactly what you've stated here: They went contrary to the prevailing trend. In the late 70's everybody built their teams to stop the power running attack. Along comes Walsh with his precision short passing game. Everyone called it "dink and dunk" and said it wouldn't work. Well, you know what happened.

The important thing, of course, is that it's not enough simply to go contrary to the trend. You have to be GOOD. Walsh had Montana and Rice and Lott, after all. But, yeah, if you build a good team AND you're playing a style that other teams aren't really prepared to contend with, then you've got a real advantage.

The difference being of course that Walsh bucked the trend with a style of play that hadn't been seen before in the NFL, thus making the 49ers ahead of the curve and forcing teams to develop schemes and defenses to match us, which took years. The west coast offense led to the development of the Tampa 2. What we're apparently doing now is going back in time to play an offensive scheme that teams have already figured out how to beat. That's not very inspiring. The rules allow QBs and WRs to basically play untouched, which leads to higher scores. Now we come along and play a "smash mouth" offense designed to eat the clock and wear down defenses. The problem with that scheme is that if our defense doesn't shut the other team down we play from behind and are forced to abandon what our personnel presumably does best. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why is it that because the 49er's now have BIG MEN that folks here suddenly think that they're just gonna blow down the other teams? If having big men is the key to having a successful running game, many teams would have done it long ago.

Originally posted by kem99:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I've read and heard alot of criticism that the league is moving to a passing league and having a free safety who can cover like a corner is essential.

I've read that the Niners building up front to crush people is too "old-school" and won't work in todays NFL.

I think thats all bunk. ;-)

The NFL is cyclical. People act as tho the NFL moves in one direction and it never comes back around again. That just isn't the case. Just look at the 3-4 defense....it comes and goes...just like everything else.

Follow me here. The league goes after smaller, quicker guys to counter pass happy offenses (West Coast O, Run and Shoot, No Huddle?). Now, everyone on the field is small and fast and you have neutralized the faster pass-happy O.

Along comes a team with an O-Line that everages over 320 lbs and simply MAULS you. It is a run first team that can pass to keep you honest. The D just crushes those streaking WRs and the safeties make those smaller faster guys pay every time they make a catch.

Do you know what I just described? The Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's. Most of the league was moving to the pass-happy west coast offense or K-Gun or any number of other pass offenses. The Cowboys came along with a MASSIVE line and some speed and size on D and won 3 SB's.

I'm not saying that the Niners are the Cowboys. I'm saying that sometimes bucking the trend makes you unique in a league of parity and being the only team in the Division that will hit you in the mouth has some advantages.

It is a good thing for the 49ers to finally have a vision and identity. I don't even have a problem with the 49ers bucking the NFL trend.

The one problem is that to win and contend for SB's consistently, you have to have a franchise QB. The Cowboys example you referenced above is a good one...except that they had a franchise QB in Aikman. The 49ers still do not know what they have in Smith. If he fails this year or becomes simply a "manage the game" type QB, they can still potentially win a SB if everything goes right in a given year but it is unlikely they will contend year after year.

Smith is the reason defenses stacked the box and until he makes them pay, teams will continue to do it.

good positive post. and to add, people say games are won in the trenches, but even before the trenches are lined up, we need FIELD POSITION. if our "D" can consistently get 3 and outs, Ginn, Kyle Williams, or Vann will be returning the ball from our own 30 yard line. Say, we start our offensive drives on the opposing teams side, we can just smash our way into the endzone, up the gut or dink and dunk!