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Kawakami: 2 out of 4 have to go. The question: which 2

Originally posted by pete98146:
Originally posted by DRnSFw:
Mike Shanahan would know what to do with Alex, Frank, Vernon, and Michael!


BINGO! My friend and I were discussing this very same topic. In the past, the York's have managed the team by making last minute, knee jerk decisions. Now it's time for Jed York to be PROACTIVE. It's an exciting time to be a Niners fan. We have a brand new stadium on the horizon and we have a lot of quality players on the squad.

That being said, Jed has to question whether "Mike Singletary" football is going to put fans in the seats? Many would argue that going across town to watch a 10-3 football is boring. I'm just playing devils advocate here so bear with me.

I like Singletary, but at the end of the day I see him nothing more than a rah rah type of coach. I certainly don't think he'll wow anybody with his Xs and Os. Rah Rah coaches are the first coaches to lose their effectiveness. I'd argue that it's already happening.

Why not hire Shanny at the end of the season and do whatever it takes to keep Manusky as defensive coordinator? I think this would be a step in the right direction.

Wait!!!

1. Alex likes the digit system much more than the WCO so we clamor for the digit system.

2. Alex thrives in the spread so we want Sing to cator to Alex and use the spread.

Now we want Shannahan to force Alex into a system that he doesn't like? Sooner or later, that won't be Alex's fault either.


I'm sorry, but sooner or later, this kid needs to adjust a little also.
Originally posted by krizay:
I know we all think that 2010 might be our year. I'm starting to think differently. This almost seems like a no win situation. Almost! We all have our own little offseason plan on how to fix it. How often does the organization do what we think is right?

The only way this works in my opinion. Is if Sing fires Raye and gets a real proven OC. I just don't see that happening. I think he will talk to Raye and try to change this or that. I don't see it being successful.

Firing Scotty means another setback as the new GM will likely just use the first year to self evaluate. Same with firing Sing.

We need an Oline and QB regardless who is here. I don't care what anybody has to say about Alex having time and looking average or decent or any of that nonsense. Dude's a good kid and all. I wish him the best. But he has to go!

If Sing doesn't man up from now until February. Expect a loooong 2010 all you optimists!

I agree changes are needed, but we are close as it is. Add a few players and some of those close losses this year become wins.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by pete98146:
Originally posted by DRnSFw:
Mike Shanahan would know what to do with Alex, Frank, Vernon, and Michael!


BINGO! My friend and I were discussing this very same topic. In the past, the York's have managed the team by making last minute, knee jerk decisions. Now it's time for Jed York to be PROACTIVE. It's an exciting time to be a Niners fan. We have a brand new stadium on the horizon and we have a lot of quality players on the squad.

That being said, Jed has to question whether "Mike Singletary" football is going to put fans in the seats? Many would argue that going across town to watch a 10-3 football is boring. I'm just playing devils advocate here so bear with me.

I like Singletary, but at the end of the day I see him nothing more than a rah rah type of coach. I certainly don't think he'll wow anybody with his Xs and Os. Rah Rah coaches are the first coaches to lose their effectiveness. I'd argue that it's already happening.

Why not hire Shanny at the end of the season and do whatever it takes to keep Manusky as defensive coordinator? I think this would be a step in the right direction.

Wait!!!

1. Alex likes the digit system much more than the WCO so we clamor for the digit system.

2. Alex thrives in the spread so we want Sing to cator to Alex and use the spread.

Now we want Shannahan to force Alex into a system that he doesn't like? Sooner or later, that won't be Alex's fault either.


I'm sorry, but sooner or later, this kid needs to adjust a little also.


I think he could adjust to the WCO fairly easy after he tried to run it in his rookie year and Hostler tried but failed to encorporate it in 2007. He's already been exposed to it so it's just like the digit system we're going with now, it's not really a whole new offense for him. The problem with our offense now is play calling and OL. The main thing that's good about the shotgun is it gives him an extra second and a half to read the field. Twice he was sacked before he finished his drop, and usually on all those drops in the first half he had a guy in his face as he planted his back foot. Even can't block on a 3 step drop. The problem was the same for Hill, who only managed 10 points in his last 2 games.

The shotgun makes it easier for the QB, whoever it is, because the OL can't block for more than 2 seconds, and it gives them a way to take more advantage of that time. Atleast that's how it looks to me. But it looks like we're finally getting a return on our investment with Smith, IMO.
Plan A: Keep Smith. He's not bad and will continue to get better. Keep McCloughan. He's drafted some decent players and had some misses, but has steadily upgraded the talent overall. Sng/Raye, dump in favor of Urban Meyer, reunited with Smith in an offense Smith already knows and thrives in, and by doing so, leverage the talents of Crabtree, Davis, Gore, Morgan, Hill, Walker...we have good talent at the offensive skill positions. Dedicate the draft to OL, Pass Rusher, DB.

Plan B: Do nothing, because, as unappealing as it may seem, the team will get better as a matter of course with some continuity.

I'd only do wholsale changes if I could get Meyer. I think he'd be perfect. Don't know if he'd be interested, but the table would be set for his success at the next level. The Niners are not a disaster, they just need a few more pieces, but already have pretty good talent and good cap room. Also, Meyer doesn't seem like the rah-rah type of college coach. He seems a little intense and businesslike. I bet he could make the leap to the NFL where others have failed.
[ Edited by BSofSF on Nov 23, 2009 at 2:05 PM ]
New GM and let him pick a new HC, let the new HC pick his staff!
Originally posted by jaghetersofie:
Originally posted by teeohh:
if Sing goes, then of course Raye goes, and imo Alex goes.

If Scott goes, imo everyone goes.

Raye can be the only one to go, maybe they promote Mike Johnson?


Raye goes and Johnson replaces him, I think that was the plan from the beginning. But if he's just going to run Raye's offense I'm not too excited about it...

i dunno, it might not be so bad. raye's offense has shown glimpses of being an NFL offense. mike johnson is a younger guy with fresh ideas so im sure he'll add to it. i read that he was visiting college campuses to scout new schemes so thats a good thing. keeping the same system in place is very important. our team always shows flashes towards the end of the year and i think that is due to just getting comfortable with the offense. but if Norv gets canned ill welcome him back with open arms. after being left probably the most stacked team in the league by marty, he reduces them to just another average team. i think he's on his way out and i dont think he'll ever get another HC gig again.
For those who are convinced that we should get rid of Alex, please let us now who you intend to get to replace him. As for FAs, we might have been able to sign Derek Anderson (QB rating of 36.2), or Matt Cassell (QBR 77.9). Compare that to Alex's 81.5.

Or if we go the draft route, lets look at recent history to see how that tends to turn out:

Top rated QBs, and their current QB ratings on the ESPN list of:

2005
Smith 81.5
Rodgers 102.6

2006
Leinart Not rated
Young Not rated
Cutler 74.5

2007
Russell 47.7
Edwards 74.1
Quinn 70.4

2008
Ryan 80.0
Flacco 89.1
Henne 77.7

2009
Stafford 66.9
Sanchez 61.1

Wow, other than Rodgers and Flacco, Alex is next best! You have to say that the history of drafting top rated QBs doesn't often turn out gems. Which brings up Nate Davis. Given this dismal history, what makes you guys so optimistic he will be all that you hope he is? So, in conclusion, if you dump Alex, who is available that you can be certain will be better than him?
Originally posted by excelsior:
For those who are convinced that we should get rid of Alex, please let us now who you intend to get to replace him. As for FAs, we might have been able to sign Derek Anderson (QB rating of 36.2), or Matt Cassell (QBR 77.9). Compare that to Alex's 81.5.

Or if we go the draft route, lets look at recent history to see how that tends to turn out:

Top rated QBs, and their current QB ratings on the ESPN list of:

2005
Smith 81.5
Rodgers 102.6

2006
Leinart Not rated
Young Not rated
Cutler 74.5

2007
Russell 47.7
Edwards 74.1
Quinn 70.4

2008
Ryan 80.0
Flacco 89.1
Henne 77.7

2009
Stafford 66.9
Sanchez 61.1

Wow, other than Rodgers and Flacco, Alex is next best! You have to say that the history of drafting top rated QBs doesn't often turn out gems. Which brings up Nate Davis. Given this dismal history, what makes you guys so optimistic he will be all that you hope he is? So, in conclusion, if you dump Alex, who is available that you can be certain will be better than him?

Now I wonder if someone has the ratings of these QBs when the game is within 10 or less points. Hmm.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by pete98146:
Originally posted by DRnSFw:
Mike Shanahan would know what to do with Alex, Frank, Vernon, and Michael!


BINGO! My friend and I were discussing this very same topic. In the past, the York's have managed the team by making last minute, knee jerk decisions. Now it's time for Jed York to be PROACTIVE. It's an exciting time to be a Niners fan. We have a brand new stadium on the horizon and we have a lot of quality players on the squad.

That being said, Jed has to question whether "Mike Singletary" football is going to put fans in the seats? Many would argue that going across town to watch a 10-3 football is boring. I'm just playing devils advocate here so bear with me.

I like Singletary, but at the end of the day I see him nothing more than a rah rah type of coach. I certainly don't think he'll wow anybody with his Xs and Os. Rah Rah coaches are the first coaches to lose their effectiveness. I'd argue that it's already happening.

Why not hire Shanny at the end of the season and do whatever it takes to keep Manusky as defensive coordinator? I think this would be a step in the right direction.

Wait!!!

1. Alex likes the digit system much more than the WCO so we clamor for the digit system.

2. Alex thrives in the spread so we want Sing to cator to Alex and use the spread.

Now we want Shannahan to force Alex into a system that he doesn't like? Sooner or later, that won't be Alex's fault either.


I'm sorry, but sooner or later, this kid needs to adjust a little also.

LOL, Great Post!!!

But I'd rather take Shannahan and dump Smith at this point.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by excelsior:
For those who are convinced that we should get rid of Alex, please let us now who you intend to get to replace him. As for FAs, we might have been able to sign Derek Anderson (QB rating of 36.2), or Matt Cassell (QBR 77.9). Compare that to Alex's 81.5.

Or if we go the draft route, lets look at recent history to see how that tends to turn out:

Top rated QBs, and their current QB ratings on the ESPN list of:

2005
Smith 81.5
Rodgers 102.6

2006
Leinart Not rated
Young Not rated
Cutler 74.5

2007
Russell 47.7
Edwards 74.1
Quinn 70.4

2008
Ryan 80.0
Flacco 89.1
Henne 77.7

2009
Stafford 66.9
Sanchez 61.1

Wow, other than Rodgers and Flacco, Alex is next best! You have to say that the history of drafting top rated QBs doesn't often turn out gems. Which brings up Nate Davis. Given this dismal history, what makes you guys so optimistic he will be all that you hope he is? So, in conclusion, if you dump Alex, who is available that you can be certain will be better than him?

Now I wonder if someone has the ratings of these QBs when the game is within 10 or less points. Hmm.

and I wonder if someone has the ratings of these QB's when they have less than 2 seconds to get rid of the ball before they are sacked.
I think you keep Smith but bring in a new HC or OC. And if we get a new OC, its gotta be someone who can implement a spread type offense. Surprisingly, Jimmy Raye CAN implement the spread and has success with it. We just need some leadership and someone who can tell him to DO IT.

Thats much easier than scrapping everything, dumping Smith, and totally starting over.

Bottom line is: WE KNOW WHAT WE HAVE. We have an offene than CAN BE successful in a spread offense. The problem is the coaching staff REFUSES to change.

Blaming Smith or dumping Smith would be like changing your oil when you have total engine or motor failure. We have bigger fish to fry than just Alex Smith. We need to stop this "smash mouth" non sense. How long have we tried to be a conservative "smash mouth" team...? Since 2006? And its NEVER worked.
Originally posted by excelsior:
For those who are convinced that we should get rid of Alex, please let us now who you intend to get to replace him. As for FAs, we might have been able to sign Derek Anderson (QB rating of 36.2), or Matt Cassell (QBR 77.9). Compare that to Alex's 81.5.

Or if we go the draft route, lets look at recent history to see how that tends to turn out:

Top rated QBs, and their current QB ratings on the ESPN list of:

2005
Smith 81.5
Rodgers 102.6

2006
Leinart Not rated
Young Not rated
Cutler 74.5

2007
Russell 47.7
Edwards 74.1
Quinn 70.4

2008
Ryan 80.0
Flacco 89.1
Henne 77.7

2009
Stafford 66.9
Sanchez 61.1

Wow, other than Rodgers and Flacco, Alex is next best! You have to say that the history of drafting top rated QBs doesn't often turn out gems. Which brings up Nate Davis. Given this dismal history, what makes you guys so optimistic he will be all that you hope he is? So, in conclusion, if you dump Alex, who is available that you can be certain will be better than him?


Thanks for the awesome statistics excelsior, i think this will help me prove my point.


First, Kawakami knows as much about how to run an organization as colonel Sanders knew how to cook tofu. All this guy does is b*tch and complain about how the niners always suck (even when we have winning record!!!) and therefore loses all credibility with me.


Second, I'm not saying that I kow how to run one either, or else i wouldn't still be at school working in a lab 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. But, from certain season statistics and team mentalities (mainly defense), I like the direction this team is going.


If i were Jed, I would keep Sing, Raye, and Alex. Sing is in his first year and has developed a rapport with this team. I know close losses are still losses, but for those of you who remember 2004,2005, and 2007, this team has a no quit mentality that hasn't been in this organization for years.


Alex is a cheap option and has shown he can throw the ball and manage the game. The key offseason move will not be FAs or draft picks, but how Sing and Raye adjust to our players. Good coaches get players that fit their system, but great coaches can adjust to the players they have. Start developing some shotgun formations that include strong run plays. We have great WR core now, Vernon has come out of his shell, and Gore is just an amazing back at everything he does. Raye needs to build the offense with what he has and Sing needs to learn from his mistakes and work on his game management.

The only person I'd possibly kick out is McCoughlan, mainly since Holmgren has shown interest in becoming one. Holmgren is light years ahead of McCoughlan could ever be with talent evaluation and football knowledge, and if Sing shows he can't cut it as a head coach (which i don't believe), we can always move Holmgren to coach.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
New GM and let him pick a new HC, let the new HC pick his staff!

Only, Gore, Willis, Davis, Crabtree, Justin Smith, Morgan, and who else is untouchable, who else is part of a core to build on?

I can think of some guys I would cut, Mrob, Ziegler, Haralson, Brooks, D Walker, Roman, Rachel, Bass, Balmer, Soap, and others who could be replaced by a Vet at the end of his career, a waiver wire find, a practice squad player, or Rookie next season.

I would cut a few of these guys today just to send a message to the players.

I would fire a coach today to if I were Singletary, Forester, or somebody just to shake up the staff!

It is not that I "Hate" any one on my cut list, it is just that they are nothing special and can be replaced, they have all had a chance to improve, but are just average at best, and I want winners!
[ Edited by GolittaCamper on Nov 23, 2009 at 2:19 PM ]
Originally posted by Crazy49er1313:
Originally posted by excelsior:
For those who are convinced that we should get rid of Alex, please let us now who you intend to get to replace him. As for FAs, we might have been able to sign Derek Anderson (QB rating of 36.2), or Matt Cassell (QBR 77.9). Compare that to Alex's 81.5.

Or if we go the draft route, lets look at recent history to see how that tends to turn out:

Top rated QBs, and their current QB ratings on the ESPN list of:

2005
Smith 81.5
Rodgers 102.6

2006
Leinart Not rated
Young Not rated
Cutler 74.5

2007
Russell 47.7
Edwards 74.1
Quinn 70.4

2008
Ryan 80.0
Flacco 89.1
Henne 77.7

2009
Stafford 66.9
Sanchez 61.1

Wow, other than Rodgers and Flacco, Alex is next best! You have to say that the history of drafting top rated QBs doesn't often turn out gems. Which brings up Nate Davis. Given this dismal history, what makes you guys so optimistic he will be all that you hope he is? So, in conclusion, if you dump Alex, who is available that you can be certain will be better than him?


Thanks for the awesome statistics excelsior, i think this will help me prove my point.


First, Kawakami knows as much about how to run an organization as colonel Sanders knew how to cook tofu. All this guy does is b*tch and complain about how the niners always suck (even when we have winning record!!!) and therefore loses all credibility with me.


Second, I'm not saying that I kow how to run one either, or else i wouldn't still be at school working in a lab 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. But, from certain season statistics and team mentalities (mainly defense), I like the direction this team is going.


If i were Jed, I would keep Sing, Raye, and Alex. Sing is in his first year and has developed a rapport with this team. I know close losses are still losses, but for those of you who remember 2004,2005, and 2007, this team has a no quit mentality that hasn't been in this organization for years.


Alex is a cheap option and has shown he can throw the ball and manage the game. The key offseason move will not be FAs or draft picks, but how Sing and Raye adjust to our players. Good coaches get players that fit their system, but great coaches can adjust to the players they have. Start developing some shotgun formations that include strong run plays. We have great WR core now, Vernon has come out of his shell, and Gore is just an amazing back at everything he does. Raye needs to build the offense with what he has and Sing needs to learn from his mistakes and work on his game management.

The only person I'd possibly kick out is McCoughlan, mainly since Holmgren has shown interest in becoming one. Holmgren is light years ahead of McCoughlan could ever be with talent evaluation and football knowledge, and if Sing shows he can't cut it as a head coach (which i don't believe), we can always move Holmgren to coach.

Finger licking tofu. Extra crispy available.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Crazy49er1313:
Originally posted by excelsior:
For those who are convinced that we should get rid of Alex, please let us now who you intend to get to replace him. As for FAs, we might have been able to sign Derek Anderson (QB rating of 36.2), or Matt Cassell (QBR 77.9). Compare that to Alex's 81.5.

Or if we go the draft route, lets look at recent history to see how that tends to turn out:

Top rated QBs, and their current QB ratings on the ESPN list of:

2005
Smith 81.5
Rodgers 102.6

2006
Leinart Not rated
Young Not rated
Cutler 74.5

2007
Russell 47.7
Edwards 74.1
Quinn 70.4

2008
Ryan 80.0
Flacco 89.1
Henne 77.7

2009
Stafford 66.9
Sanchez 61.1

Wow, other than Rodgers and Flacco, Alex is next best! You have to say that the history of drafting top rated QBs doesn't often turn out gems. Which brings up Nate Davis. Given this dismal history, what makes you guys so optimistic he will be all that you hope he is? So, in conclusion, if you dump Alex, who is available that you can be certain will be better than him?


Thanks for the awesome statistics excelsior, i think this will help me prove my point.


First, Kawakami knows as much about how to run an organization as colonel Sanders knew how to cook tofu. All this guy does is b*tch and complain about how the niners always suck (even when we have winning record!!!) and therefore loses all credibility with me.


Second, I'm not saying that I kow how to run one either, or else i wouldn't still be at school working in a lab 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. But, from certain season statistics and team mentalities (mainly defense), I like the direction this team is going.


If i were Jed, I would keep Sing, Raye, and Alex. Sing is in his first year and has developed a rapport with this team. I know close losses are still losses, but for those of you who remember 2004,2005, and 2007, this team has a no quit mentality that hasn't been in this organization for years.


Alex is a cheap option and has shown he can throw the ball and manage the game. The key offseason move will not be FAs or draft picks, but how Sing and Raye adjust to our players. Good coaches get players that fit their system, but great coaches can adjust to the players they have. Start developing some shotgun formations that include strong run plays. We have great WR core now, Vernon has come out of his shell, and Gore is just an amazing back at everything he does. Raye needs to build the offense with what he has and Sing needs to learn from his mistakes and work on his game management.

The only person I'd possibly kick out is McCoughlan, mainly since Holmgren has shown interest in becoming one. Holmgren is light years ahead of McCoughlan could ever be with talent evaluation and football knowledge, and if Sing shows he can't cut it as a head coach (which i don't believe), we can always move Holmgren to coach.

Finger licking tofu. Extra crispy available.


I prefer the extra spicy kind from Popeyes, or Church's famous tofu and waffles...