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49ers vs. Crabtree (Contract - Who Won?)

49ers vs. Crabtree (Contract - Who Won?)

Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.

I HAD a great deal of respect for him. It is gone.
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Not always right. I'd be happy to list the times I have been wrong on this board. However, if you want to kiss the ground, that is fine by me.
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.

Everyone knows that you have attacked me over the years (mostly after I showed the board your four factual errors in the Bryant Johnson-Arnaz Battle post last year..the same one that you eventually altered, and agreed that I was right and you were wrong), so for you to call me a fraud is...nothing.

I knew you would re-appear to attack.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
If you read the article by Brandt, someone agrees with me. An expert in the cap.

Only because you've shifted the paradigm.

All along, you asserted that Crabtree deserved a contract that was outside of his slotted position, that the 49ers were being obtuse in attempting to maintain the slot while dealing with a player in a "unique" situation like Crabtree, and that he deserved to make more money than DHB. You also asserted that Parker would be able to achieve these means, or close to them, by taking advantage of an inexperienced and inept 49er front office.

By those standards, which are the standards that YOU have been espousing all along, Parker fell well short, and the Niners came out the clear victors.

Brandt properly points out that this contract is reasonable for both sides (within the context of an unreasonable rookie structure), yet he hasn't established the false paradigm that you have over the last couple of months, using DHB as the measuring stick. You're now using nebulous phrases like "unique contract" (whatever that means) to point toward you being right all along.

You can always claim to be right if you shift your standards after the fact, which is exactly what you've done.

The first part of your paragraph is correct (if this isn't a unique contract and unique situation, then what is?), but I never stated that Parker would achieve numbers beyond DHB. Let's be fair.
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Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
If you read the article by Brandt, someone agrees with me. An expert in the cap.

Only because you've shifted the paradigm.

All along, you asserted that Crabtree deserved a contract that was outside of his slotted position, that the 49ers were being obtuse in attempting to maintain the slot while dealing with a player in a "unique" situation like Crabtree, and that he deserved to make more money than DHB. You also asserted that Parker would be able to achieve these means, or close to them, by taking advantage of an inexperienced and inept 49er front office.

By those standards, which are the standards that YOU have been espousing all along, Parker fell well short, and the Niners came out the clear victors.

Brandt properly points out that this contract is reasonable for both sides (within the context of an unreasonable rookie structure), yet he hasn't established the false paradigm that you have over the last couple of months, using DHB as the measuring stick. You're now using nebulous phrases like "unique contract" (whatever that means) to point toward you being right all along.

You can always claim to be right if you shift your standards after the fact, which is exactly what you've done.

The first part of your paragraph is correct (if this isn't a unique contract and unique situation, then what is?), but I never stated that Parker would achieve numbers beyond DHB. Let's be fair.

But you defending his position in attempting to do so at our organizations expense.
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.

I HAD a great deal of respect for him. It is gone.


It will resurface. People are just emotional right now. Many desperately want to claim a total victory by the Niners, but in the end, both sides won, and both sides lost, which is what Brandt stated.

It is just a contract.
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.



Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

Andrew Brandt's article "Wensdays Whys" SAY NOTHING about the true details of the deal so he doesn't know - so he can't give analysis. It's nothing CLOSE to what was quoted in PFW. His only reference is:

My sense here from talking to some key people is that this deal is a hybrid between a true five-year deal and a true six-year deal. Crabtree has performance standards to meet well beyond the minimum allowable, but those standards only have to be met in two of the first four years of the contract to void the sixth year. Additionally, Crabtree will receive a better package than a traditional five-year contract. We’ll have the numbers on the deal soon.

As to reports that the sixth-year salary, if not voided, is $4M, that may be true, but it is the pre-escalator number. Whether it’s a result of positive or negative performance over the coming years, it’s extremely unlikely Crabtree will be playing for the 49ers in 2014 for a $4M salary.


MD - you have repeatedly criticized MM as a reliable source for information, but here you site Andrew Brandt as a "reliable source" of information?

It's clear from his article that he doesn't understand the following:

1) Crabtree's performance standards will be almost impossible to meet (2 probowls AND 80% of snaps on a run-oriented offense) - period end of story. So his categorization as this being a "hybrid" deal is ludicrous when you look at the details - which he either obviously blew threw and just focused on the "numbers" like everyone else.

2)So how can he say Crabtree will receive a "better package" on the deal since he hasn't seen the details? Is he making this assumption based on "discretionary compensation", incentives - and clearly the only escalator is $4mil. Clearly discretionary compensation AKA non-guaranteed bonus option couldn't possibly be a positive and certainly not a better package that other rooks have.

3)Finally, assuming that the 6th year isn't a $4mil dollar deal tells me that the 49ers don't want to take a huge salary hit if Crabtree busts like other 1st round WRs and it would quite easy to unload that salary if he doesn't perform. Yes that year MAY be voidable IF he performs but again, if he holds out, conditional bonus triggers.

Your boy Brandt is trying to spin this one for his friend Parker when clearly it's a loss when he states BS like:

My sense is that Parker, Crabtree and special adviser Deion Sanders had settled on this date for a while to get a deal done. For whatever reasons they had, their date in mind was following Week 4 of the NFL season. There was not much to lose by waiting as they felt the structure of the deal would minimize the damage of missing four game checks.

Parker was strategic in bringing the player to the meeting.
It’s always more difficult for management to take a hard line with an agent when the player is present. Whatever deal Crabtree received, it would have been worse had he not also be there, albeit before the nuts and bolts were ironed out.


Brandt really screws up here. Praising Sanders for keeping CT out of training camp, thus keeping him from attaining ANY chance at reaching or contributing to escalators for this season? Placing him way behind his team and missing a prime opportunity to play on a play-off team? CT loses more than money here - time is much more important. No?

An please stop the lies. Parker didn't recommend to bring CT, York ASKED to meet face to face. This wasn't the genius of Parker. Maddog, your bot Brandt is really trying to put cherry red lipstick on a pig here.

Hint: It still looks like a pig.

Brandt's poor attempt to paint CT/Parker as "winners" here in this skeleton of an article with little facts about the CT deal ITSELF, even in relation to the team in which he plays falls wells short of what we've been reading from Maiocco in the past. If you're going to ping MM for taking a side, don't think that your "reference" for clearly biased, poor journalistic source would go unnoticed here.

Last but not least, if this was such a win-win, and a better deal, why is Parker a NO-SHOW at his client's press conference? Usually agents want their faces around when their players have hauled in a "better package" than everyone else. Is that the genius of Parker again? Much too smart to make an appearance after landing such a "win-win" deal?

Hint: Still looks like a pig.

Go Niners

-GM

Once again, if someone disagrees with the position that the Niners "won", they are a friend of the enemy. Haven't we already gone down that road...with the accusations against me.

It is poor argumentation. And, I'll take the expert's answer on this one.

The "expert" you cite provides no details or context but MM is wrong for, as you've put it, "taking a side". This article is an editorial, not a fact-based discussion of the contract which isn't grounds for "evidence" proving it was a win-win.

How is that missed in what's stated above?

[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 8, 2009 at 12:36:10 ]
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

Fact: The amount of guaranteed money that Crabtree is receiving is less than the #9 pick, but more than the 11th pick.

Fact: The annual salary that Crabtree will receive, even if pro-rated for him missing 1/4 of the year this year, is less than what Raji will receive if Raji plays more than 35% of the defensive snaps in ANY season, which is virtual certainty.

Fact: In order to surpass Raji's base compensation, Crabtree has to make at least one pro-bowl in one season and play 80%+ of the offensive snaps in another in the next 3 years.

Fact: BJ Raji will hit free agency a year before Crabtree does, unless Crabtree reaches the aforementioned escalators.

Fact: There were a variety of reports that indicated that the Niners would go up to $1 of Raji's contract, but would not exceed it. You referenced this a couple of days ago.

Rumor: Parker was seeking a more lucrative contract than DHB's.

Fact: Parker did not come close to achieving that.

Analysis: In every reasonable way, Crabtree was paid according to his slot, and would have to reach extremely unlikely goals in order to exceed it. Considering Parker's goals of exceeding DHB's contract, and the Niner's goals of staying within the slot, the Niners are the clear victor.

Did the Niners move up within the slot? Yes, of course. But in comparison to the concessions that Parker made, they're minimal.

One more thing...

Fact: I wonder how long it took for you to find someone to agree with you. I hope you feel validated.

If the agent doesn't show up at the press conference that is usually a BIG sign that he lost that battle. If he would have gotten the contract they wanted he would have been there to show his face. It's that simple. Don't Nuke it.
Based on yearly averages, the Niners landed Crabtree in the upper end of the #10 slot when looking at plausible outcome of the escalators in the Crabtree and Raji deals. That much is obvious if analyzing this by comparing apples to apples.

I'm sure Parker got some concessions that were important to him, but in the end the Niners did what they set out to do.

I'm still ticked that this deal didn't get done in July. This is where I see genuine bad faith from Parker in that I believe he was counting on gaining leverage by virtue of a poor start by the Niners and when that didn't happen he had to come into town with hat in hand and negotiate a deal that could have been done much earlier.
Originally posted by Giant9er:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.




Anybody that has been around here for any period of time on this site knows what Maddog is, a master of spin and a master of turning others info into his own. Just don't pay attention to him, I put him in the same category of poster as NolanHasAPlan(for those of you who remember that guy lol) he simply is a joke poster who cant actually believe what he is typing, he just wants a reaction and has to much time on his hands. What do you expect from a High School teacher who never made it in football? I would be cynical and hurt about my own failure too lol
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.

Everyone knows that you have attacked me over the years (mostly after I showed the board your four factual errors in the Bryant Johnson-Arnaz Battle post last year..the same one that you eventually altered, and agreed that I was right and you were wrong), so for you to call me a fraud is...nothing.

I knew you would re-appear to attack.

Oh, you mean the post that you surrendered and disappeared with your tail between your legs? I better stop right here before you cry to a mod again. Boo Hoo Hoo.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Those who didn't burn their jerseys

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This thread is going to go the way of the other locked Crabtree threads unless you guys can keep the tensions low. LA is doing a great job of arguing with someone and keeping it clearly within the rules.

Let's stop with the "lazy" and "egotistical" comments, despite how true you may think those statements are.

If not warnings will be issued and threads will be locked. Thanks, everyone.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
If you read the article by Brandt, someone agrees with me. An expert in the cap.

Only because you've shifted the paradigm.

All along, you asserted that Crabtree deserved a contract that was outside of his slotted position, that the 49ers were being obtuse in attempting to maintain the slot while dealing with a player in a "unique" situation like Crabtree, and that he deserved to make more money than DHB. You also asserted that Parker would be able to achieve these means, or close to them, by taking advantage of an inexperienced and inept 49er front office.

By those standards, which are the standards that YOU have been espousing all along, Parker fell well short, and the Niners came out the clear victors.

Brandt properly points out that this contract is reasonable for both sides (within the context of an unreasonable rookie structure), yet he hasn't established the false paradigm that you have over the last couple of months, using DHB as the measuring stick. You're now using nebulous phrases like "unique contract" (whatever that means) to point toward you being right all along.

You can always claim to be right if you shift your standards after the fact, which is exactly what you've done.

The first part of your paragraph is correct (if this isn't a unique contract and unique situation, then what is?), but I never stated that Parker would achieve numbers beyond DHB. Let's be fair.

Yes, let's be fair.

I said that you've asserted that Parker would be able to achieve these means, or close to them, by taking advantage of an inexperienced and inept 49er front office.

This provides the opportunity for discretion. By no reasonable measure does Crabtree's contract approach anywhere near what DHB got. In fact, we're comparing him to Raji's contract, and he still falls short. And DHB was a measuring stick that you used on multiple occasions.

Furthermore, I'd guess that the gains that Parker did achieve were capable of being attained all along, had he just approached the bargaining table. The Niner offer was their baseline proposal, Parker counters, Niners re-counter, etc.

The holdout accomplished nothing that normal negotiations couldn't have 2 months ago, and the terms of Crabtree's deal (in relation to other picks) bears that out. So by virtue of Parker "getting on the plane", he did make more money for his client...but he could have gotten on that same plane 2 months ago.