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49ers vs. Crabtree (Contract - Who Won?)

49ers vs. Crabtree (Contract - Who Won?)

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

Hahaha, sounds like a junior high school kid's argument.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Why do people think Crabtree will have hard time being on the field 80% of time? After this season he's pretty much guaranteed to be a starter. Yeah we're a run first team, but we're not running out of goal line packages. If he ends up being our number one guy he's going to hit that goal.

It's not the snaps that will be extremely tough, it's the pro bowls. He needs at least one in the next 3 years. That will be difficult to achieve considering the other receivers in the NFC, and the nature of the Niner's offense. It doesn't look like Singletary's going anywhere any time soon, and as long as he's here I'd bet that we're a run-oriented offense.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right.!


I didn't care much for the mumbo jumbo that followed this
Originally posted by AmpLee:
You were clamoring for Crabtree to get paid out of slot -- DHB money. Not only is his deal within slot, it's nothing close to DHB money. It's comical how you try and spin this to say you were right.

I never stated he should receive DHB money. You may check any of my posts. My argument is that he deserved consideration for money outside the slot.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

Andrew Brandt's article "Wensdays Whys" SAY NOTHING about the true details of the deal so he doesn't know - so he can't give analysis. It's nothing CLOSE to what was quoted in PFW. His only reference is:

My sense here from talking to some key people is that this deal is a hybrid between a true five-year deal and a true six-year deal. Crabtree has performance standards to meet well beyond the minimum allowable, but those standards only have to be met in two of the first four years of the contract to void the sixth year. Additionally, Crabtree will receive a better package than a traditional five-year contract. We’ll have the numbers on the deal soon.

As to reports that the sixth-year salary, if not voided, is $4M, that may be true, but it is the pre-escalator number. Whether it’s a result of positive or negative performance over the coming years, it’s extremely unlikely Crabtree will be playing for the 49ers in 2014 for a $4M salary.


MD - you have repeatedly criticized MM as a reliable source for information, but here you site Andrew Brandt as a "reliable source" of information?

It's clear from his article that he doesn't understand the following:

1) Crabtree's performance standards will be almost impossible to meet (2 probowls AND 80% of snaps on a run-oriented offense) - period end of story. So his categorization as this being a "hybrid" deal is ludicrous when you look at the details - which he either obviously blew threw and just focused on the "numbers" like everyone else.

2)So how can he say Crabtree will receive a "better package" on the deal since he hasn't seen the details? Is he making this assumption based on "discretionary compensation", incentives - and clearly the only escalator is $4mil. Clearly discretionary compensation AKA non-guaranteed bonus option couldn't possibly be a positive and certainly not a better package that other rooks have.

3)Finally, assuming that the 6th year isn't a $4mil dollar deal tells me that the 49ers don't want to take a huge salary hit if Crabtree busts like other 1st round WRs and it would quite easy to unload that salary if he doesn't perform. Yes that year MAY be voidable IF he performs but again, if he holds out, conditional bonus triggers.

Your boy Brandt is trying to spin this one for his friend Parker when clearly it's a loss when he states BS like:

My sense is that Parker, Crabtree and special adviser Deion Sanders had settled on this date for a while to get a deal done. For whatever reasons they had, their date in mind was following Week 4 of the NFL season. There was not much to lose by waiting as they felt the structure of the deal would minimize the damage of missing four game checks.

Parker was strategic in bringing the player to the meeting.
It’s always more difficult for management to take a hard line with an agent when the player is present. Whatever deal Crabtree received, it would have been worse had he not also be there, albeit before the nuts and bolts were ironed out.


Brandt really screws up here. Praising Sanders for keeping CT out of training camp, thus keeping him from attaining ANY chance at reaching or contributing to escalators for this season? Placing him way behind his team and missing a prime opportunity to play on a play-off team? CT loses more than money here - time is much more important. No?

An please stop the lies. Parker didn't recommend to bring CT, York ASKED to meet face to face. This wasn't the genius of Parker. Maddog, your bot Brandt is really trying to put cherry red lipstick on a pig here.

Hint: It still looks like a pig.

Brandt's poor attempt to paint CT/Parker as "winners" here in this skeleton of an article with little facts about the CT deal ITSELF, even in relation to the team in which he plays falls wells short of what we've been reading from Maiocco in the past. If you're going to ping MM for taking a side, don't think that your "reference" for clearly biased, poor journalistic source would go unnoticed here.

Last but not least, if this was such a win-win, and a better deal, why is Parker a NO-SHOW at his client's press conference? Usually agents want their faces around when their players have hauled in a "better package" than everyone else. Is that the genius of Parker again? Much too smart to make an appearance after landing such a "win-win" deal?

Hint: Still looks like a pig.

Go Niners

-GM

Once again, if someone disagrees with the position that the Niners "won", they are a friend of the enemy. Haven't we already gone down that road...with the accusations against me.

It is poor argumentation. And, I'll take the expert's answer on this one.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
You were clamoring for Crabtree to get paid out of slot -- DHB money. Not only is his deal within slot, it's nothing close to DHB money. It's comical how you try and spin this to say you were right.

I never stated he should receive DHB money. You may check any of my posts. My argument is that he deserved consideration for money outside the slot.

And he got paid within the slot, so I guess that means you were wrong then.
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

You seem to make it clear in your article that you think neither side owned the other side. You claim this as what you had beeen saying all along.

However this clearly isn't the case. Your claim all along that Eugene Parker was an amazing agent and he was going to walk all over the Niners inexperienced front office.

Once again you spin your opinion to make it seem like you were right all along when you weren't right at all.

Just give it up. Is it sooooo ver hard to be wrong?

My response about Parker was based on board members labelling him an idiot, a moron, and a host of other things. These people clearly had no knowledge of his history, success, and excellent list of clients. So, I did the legwork for these lazy and naive people in informing them of his history of success. There is no way any rational person could argue that he is not one of the top football agents in the game.

You may go to any posting and see that I believed the Niners would have the upper hand on the guaranteed money, but Crabtree would gain a better offer in total money than the person (or people) above him. And, as Brandt writes, it is true.

So, if you can find any statement that is incorrect, please post and we'll discuss. It is not hard to find my statements.

I ask you to be fair in stating my positions. You should not lie to attempt to make me look bad.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

Fact: The amount of guaranteed money that Crabtree is receiving is less than the #9 pick, but more than the 11th pick.

Fact: The annual salary that Crabtree will receive, even if pro-rated for him missing 1/4 of the year this year, is less than what Raji will receive if Raji plays more than 35% of the defensive snaps in ANY season, which is virtual certainty.

Fact: In order to surpass Raji's base compensation, Crabtree has to make at least one pro-bowl in one season and play 80%+ of the offensive snaps in another in the next 3 years.

Fact: BJ Raji will hit free agency a year before Crabtree does, unless Crabtree reaches the aforementioned escalators.

Fact: There were a variety of reports that indicated that the Niners would go up to $1 of Raji's contract, but would not exceed it. You referenced this a couple of days ago.

Rumor: Parker was seeking a more lucrative contract than DHB's.

Fact: Parker did not come close to achieving that.

Analysis: In every reasonable way, Crabtree was paid according to his slot, and would have to reach extremely unlikely goals in order to exceed it. Considering Parker's goals of exceeding DHB's contract, and the Niner's goals of staying within the slot, the Niners are the clear victor.

Did the Niners move up within the slot? Yes, of course. But in comparison to the concessions that Parker made, they're minimal.

One more thing...

Fact: I wonder how long it took for you to find someone to agree with you. I hope you feel validated.

If you read the article by Brandt, someone agrees with me. An expert in the cap.
Originally posted by ruthless49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This is brought to you by....The Truth Hurts!!!!

According to Andrew Brandt's article on the National Football Post, I am right. Both sides made concessions, and both sides won battles on this contract. Brandt knows his stuff. He is a former salary cap administrator for an NFL team, and his breakdown was excellent.

Here is the pasted information at the conclusion. Many others have attached the link throughout this thread:

The Wait: The offer on the table for Parker and Crabtree of a couple days ago was:

Five years, $20M, $16M guaranteed.

The final deal is:

Six years, $32M ($28M over the first five), $17M guaranteed.

Analysis: Many have speculated that Crabtree took the same deal he was being offered for weeks, if not months, by the team. Parker and Crabtree may have made $8M over the next five years with their trip to San Francisco yesterday.

Hopefully the above data points out the strengths and weaknesses of this deal from both sides. It was a win for the team on some things and a win for the player on others, a deal that neither side feels great about. That usually means it is a good deal for both sides.

This was quite a saga, with a final face-to-face meeting spurred by a chance meeting between 49ers president and owner Jed York and MC Hammer at a social function. Only in the NFL


I'm sorry I have not been able to respond to some that have been claiming "victory" the last couple days, and have attempted to attack my position that both sides would win.

I guess, once again, these individuals who hope for nothing more for me to be wrong..... are wrong, and I....am right. What a shocker!!!

Cheers.

P.S. Eric Heitmann is still a good football player!!!!

Fact: The amount of guaranteed money that Crabtree is receiving is less than the #9 pick, but more than the 11th pick.

Fact: The annual salary that Crabtree will receive, even if pro-rated for him missing 1/4 of the year this year, is less than what Raji will receive if Raji plays more than 35% of the defensive snaps in ANY season, which is virtual certainty.

Fact: In order to surpass Raji's base compensation, Crabtree has to make at least one pro-bowl in one season and play 80%+ of the offensive snaps in another in the next 3 years.

Fact: BJ Raji will hit free agency a year before Crabtree does, unless Crabtree reaches the aforementioned escalators.

Fact: There were a variety of reports that indicated that the Niners would go up to $1 of Raji's contract, but would not exceed it. You referenced this a couple of days ago.

Rumor: Parker was seeking a more lucrative contract than DHB's.

Fact: Parker did not come close to achieving that.

Analysis: In every reasonable way, Crabtree was paid according to his slot, and would have to reach extremely unlikely goals in order to exceed it. Considering Parker's goals of exceeding DHB's contract, and the Niner's goals of staying within the slot, the Niners are the clear victor.

Did the Niners move up within the slot? Yes, of course. But in comparison to the concessions that Parker made, they're minimal.

One more thing...

Fact: I wonder how long it took for you to find someone to agree with you. I hope you feel validated.

Wow MD for reals im starting to think maybe these guys might not have been all the way wrong about you. You did say youd admit you were wrong and you refuse to do so. Ok if you really wish to hold to that point how about admitting you were wrong for calling out ther niners management as..inept, clueless etc etc. saying quite emphatically that Micheal Crabtree will NEVER play for the niners. this year or any other. Maybe people in general should quit making predictions one way or the other. How bout we have more analysis posts and less opinion posts from erryone. that might make NT more bearable.

Let's go through your statements.

First, I did call out the Niners' management for being blindsided by Crabtree asking for money outside the slot. This should have been common sense. The team seemed unprepared for a big contract offer than Crabtree would ask for, something I predicted on draft day. That is why I projected the signing to take place on August 15, more than two weeks after training camp started. About a handful of people agreed with me that he would not sign by start of camp, and people roundly criticized my prediction.

I have never stated that Crabtree will NEVER play for the Niners. My last opinion, which was asked by another poster a week ago, was a 50-50 shot.
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
You were clamoring for Crabtree to get paid out of slot -- DHB money. Not only is his deal within slot, it's nothing close to DHB money. It's comical how you try and spin this to say you were right.

I never stated he should receive DHB money. You may check any of my posts. My argument is that he deserved consideration for money outside the slot.

And he got paid within the slot, so I guess that means you were wrong then.

Only in guaranteed money, which was my prediction.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
If you read the article by Brandt, someone agrees with me. An expert in the cap.

Only because you've shifted the paradigm.

All along, you asserted that Crabtree deserved a contract that was outside of his slotted position, that the 49ers were being obtuse in attempting to maintain the slot while dealing with a player in a "unique" situation like Crabtree, and that he deserved to make more money than DHB. You also asserted that Parker would be able to achieve these means, or close to them, by taking advantage of an inexperienced and inept 49er front office.

By those standards, which are the standards that YOU have been espousing all along, Parker fell well short, and the Niners came out the clear victors.

Brandt properly points out that this contract is reasonable for both sides (within the context of an unreasonable rookie structure), yet he hasn't established the false paradigm that you have over the last couple of months, using DHB as the measuring stick. You're now using nebulous phrases like "unique contract" (whatever that means) to point toward you being right all along.

You can always claim to be right if you shift your standards after the fact, which is exactly what you've done.

[ Edited by LA9erFan on Oct 8, 2009 at 12:05:16 ]
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.




[ Edited by FILTHpigskin on Oct 8, 2009 at 12:03:12 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
You were clamoring for Crabtree to get paid out of slot -- DHB money. Not only is his deal within slot, it's nothing close to DHB money. It's comical how you try and spin this to say you were right.

I never stated he should receive DHB money. You may check any of my posts. My argument is that he deserved consideration for money outside the slot.

And he got paid within the slot, so I guess that means you were wrong then.

Only in guaranteed money, which was my prediction.

Misleading at best. If Raji plays 35% of the defensive snaps in any season over the duration of his contract, his base salary will exceed Crabtree's as well. Reaching that is a virtual certainty.

Crabtree is slotted at #10 in both guaranteed money and base money, and he will have to wait an additional year for free agency.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
If you read the article by Brandt, someone agrees with me. An expert in the cap.

Only because you've shifted the paradigm.

All along, you asserted that Crabtree deserved a contract that was outside of his slotted position, that the 49ers were being obtuse in attempting to maintain the slot while dealing with a player in a "unique" situation like Crabtree, and that he deserved to make more money than DHB. You also asserted that Parker would be able to achieve these means, or close to them, by taking advantage of an inexperienced and inept 49er front office.

By those standards, which are the standards that YOU have been espousing all along, Parker fell well short, and the Niners came out the clear victors.

Brandt properly points out that this contract is reasonable for both sides (within the context of an unreasonable rookie structure), yet he hasn't established the false paradigm that you have over the last couple of months, using DHB as the measuring stick. You're now using nebulous phrases like "unique contract" (whatever that means) to point toward you being right all along.

You can always claim to be right if you shift your standards after the fact, which is exactly what you've done.

This. (Said far better than I could have).
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Come on guys... MadDog is always right.

Now, bow down and kiss the virtual ground he floats over.



Why does anyone care what this guy thinks? Most vets on the board already knows that he's a egotistic fraud. Most including myself have no respect for this guy and won't take him seriously. Just ignore him. If not, he may run to a mod and cry to have you banned.

[ Edited by kronik on Oct 8, 2009 at 12:13:01 ]