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About Shaun Hills Low Passing numbers

Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:


I am with you, even though AB83 is unquestionably one of the better posters on this site. Shaun Hill = Trent Dilfer in his prime.

just asking Memphis....but if Hill = Dilfer in his prime

then who does Alex = _____ in his prime ?

don't shy away from the question....k

  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,691
The important stats are yards per attempt and turnovers. A high completion percentage is worthless if you are throwing screen passes all day. Hills yards per attempt are below average 6.8 last year and even lower this year. That separates the men from the boys Aikman was around 7, Montana 7.5, and Young around 8, a small movement in that number is very significant.
[ Edited by BobS on Sep 22, 2009 at 4:16 PM ]
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Originally posted by NCommand:
What's not surprising is that Hill is ranked 24th in pass ATTEMPTS. That speaks to a very conservative offense? Can he pass more? Of course...he was on pace to throw for over 4,100 yards last year. He only started 8 games and finished the year ranked 12th in the entire league. Had he played a whole year, even under Martz's pared-down offense, he would have been 4th in total yards.

24 Shaun Hill SF 57
25 Trent Edwards 56
25 Carson Palmer 56
25 Tony Romo 56
28 Matt Hasselbeck 54
28 JaMarcus Russell 54
30 Mark Sanchez 53
31 Brett Favre 48
32 Matt Cassel 39

So what's changed? I'd have to say our philosophy and an old-school OC who doesn't understand Hill's abilities/strengths yet.

What's interesting is that some of these players on this list are/were injured or also have good/great defenses and rely mostly on the run. Hill is proving he can play in a wide-open offense such as Martz and a very conservative offense in Raye.

I think some of you need to back off, get perspective and realize Hill is only doing what he's coached and that is to manage games and not lose them. Period. Two weeks in a row now, when he is turned loose, he leads us to winning but ONLY when given the chance - there are no audibles in this offense. It's ALL Raye!

Ahh I knew Raye was he reason hill has trouble with zip on his deep outs and in and doesn't put anything on his short passes so his wrs have to stop. I also knew Raye was the reason Hill locks on to guys and doesn't turn his head and gets flustered in the pocket and blows. Please..

It's obvious you watched the game. I saw everything u just mentioned. But I don't hate Hill, and still want him to be our starter. But when the offseason starts, I want this team to do whatever we can to draft a stud QB prospect. With the stud prospect and Nate Davis, 1 of the 2 should turn out to be the QB of the future.
[ Edited by kronik on Sep 22, 2009 at 4:16 PM ]
IMO, it's due to a combination of uber-conservative playcalling and his own physical limitations.

Hill can throw the long ball but it's not something that he's the greatest at. I'm saying that statement based on the numerous reports.

Hill is great at the touch throws and that's all that we really need him to do in this offense.

-9fA
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
What's not surprising is that Hill is ranked 24th in pass ATTEMPTS. That speaks to a very conservative offense? Can he pass more? Of course...he was on pace to throw for over 4,100 yards last year. He only started 8 games and finished the year ranked 12th in the entire league. Had he played a whole year, even under Martz's pared-down offense, he would have been 4th in total yards.

24 Shaun Hill SF 57
25 Trent Edwards 56
25 Carson Palmer 56
25 Tony Romo 56
28 Matt Hasselbeck 54
28 JaMarcus Russell 54
30 Mark Sanchez 53
31 Brett Favre 48
32 Matt Cassel 39

So what's changed? I'd have to say our philosophy and an old-school OC who doesn't understand Hill's abilities/strengths yet.

What's interesting is that some of these players on this list are/were injured or also have good/great defenses and rely mostly on the run. Hill is proving he can play in a wide-open offense such as Martz and a very conservative offense in Raye.

I think some of you need to back off, get perspective and realize Hill is only doing what he's coached and that is to manage games and not lose them. Period. Two weeks in a row now, when he is turned loose, he leads us to winning but ONLY when given the chance - there are no audibles in this offense. It's ALL Raye!

His low passing numbers are because he doesn't throw to the wr's enough. He is struggling through his reads, and that might be having to do with learning a new system. But make no mistake, Hill as a qb limits the plays you can call as an OC, there is just no way around it. I can almost guarantee you that you will not see Raye call a deep out pattern for Hill, he just doesn't have the arm to make some throws that the top tier qb's in the league can make. Not that he can't throw it down the field, but he cannot put enough velocity on it to keep it from hanging up and fluttering in the breeze. As long as he doesn't cost s games I got no problem with him.

Check the out-route to Josh Morgan at 1:45-2:00 in this video. Hill just needs to settle down in this offense and he will start to take more shots down field. Raye's just a little too conservative IMO.

That was Hill with a 20 yard out, not really a deep out and a nice throw anyways. Raye wasn't calling the plays either though.
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by dman:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by dman:
I just can't see Shaun Hill winning any Super Bowls.

maybe, but did anyone see Dilfer of all people winning one, and Hill is 100 times better IMO than Dilfer. So anythings possible.

Really?

Lets just agree to disagree on that one.

I am with you, even though AB83 is unquestionably one of the better posters on this site. Shaun Hill = Trent Dilfer in his prime.

just asking Memphis....but if Hill = Dilfer in his prime

then who does Alex = _____ in his prime ?

don't shy away from the question....k

Someone has to reach his prime to be compared to anyone else in their prime...so what does this have to do with Hill? You just fishing for an argument or something?

Troll on!
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by dman:
I just can't see Shaun Hill winning any Super Bowls.

maybe, but did anyone see Dilfer of all people winning one, and Hill is 100 times better IMO than Dilfer. So anythings possible.

The Dilfer example gets thrown around a lot as the ultimate example of the "manage the game" QB that won a SB. Unfortunately, a couple of things are usually forgotten: (1) Yes, Dilfer won a SB but he had a historically good defense behind him. I believe they set a record for fewest points allowed and throughout that year and then after the SB, there were discussions and comparisons made to the '85 Bears defense as to which defense was better. The 49er defense has certainly improved but it would be disingenuous to expect it to be in the same discussion as the Ravens SB defense; and (2) okay, Dilfer won his SB but he never got close prior to that year or after that year. In fact, over the last decade or so the teams that had "manage the game" type QBs that have gotten to or won a SB have tended not to have extended success. For example, the Ravens never got back to a SB despite having a top defense and top RB even after trying to upgrade their QB position. The Bucs won one year with Brad Johnson and a very good defense but never got close again. In the meantime, teams that have had recent extended success regardless of whether they have won a SB or not (Pats, Steelers, Colts, Giants, Eagles) have all had franchise type QBs.

So, its fine to point to Dilfer or Brad Johnson and say Hill can do what they did. Just remember what history shows the limitations are if you believe in the "manage the game" QB. With that said, Hill is the best they have and this is the best type of offense to suit his strengths but its likely that Singletary and/or the 49ers front office understand his limitations long term as well, which is why they wooed Warner and may look to draft a franchise type QB in the 2010 draft.

I pray you are right. I can respect Hills game, but I don't have to like it, and I don't have to like being one dimensional in both philosophy and ability. I would like to know that at any given point the team could decide to unleash the passing game once or twice a season to give teams something to think about if they try even for a second about stacking the box.

I want to run the ball 60% of the time cause our opponent is too scared of our passing game to try to stop it. I want to know that if they are shutting down the run game, we have a QB that's gonna make them pay, and dearly. I want to have a QB that I know more times then not can throw the ball for a 1/2 to catch up and win if need be. Hill is a sufficient passer when the box is packed full of defenders. He has awful pocket presence and either panics into stuttering around, or somehow finds the clearest path to the rushing defender, when pressure is applied.

He's the best we have, and I do respect his game, I just don't like it and would like to see his replacement drafted next April.
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Originally posted by NCommand:
What's not surprising is that Hill is ranked 24th in pass ATTEMPTS. That speaks to a very conservative offense? Can he pass more? Of course...he was on pace to throw for over 4,100 yards last year. He only started 8 games and finished the year ranked 12th in the entire league. Had he played a whole year, even under Martz's pared-down offense, he would have been 4th in total yards.

24 Shaun Hill SF 57
25 Trent Edwards 56
25 Carson Palmer 56
25 Tony Romo 56
28 Matt Hasselbeck 54
28 JaMarcus Russell 54
30 Mark Sanchez 53
31 Brett Favre 48
32 Matt Cassel 39

So what's changed? I'd have to say our philosophy and an old-school OC who doesn't understand Hill's abilities/strengths yet.

What's interesting is that some of these players on this list are/were injured or also have good/great defenses and rely mostly on the run. Hill is proving he can play in a wide-open offense such as Martz and a very conservative offense in Raye.

I think some of you need to back off, get perspective and realize Hill is only doing what he's coached and that is to manage games and not lose them. Period. Two weeks in a row now, when he is turned loose, he leads us to winning but ONLY when given the chance - there are no audibles in this offense. It's ALL Raye!

Ahh I knew Raye was he reason hill has trouble with zip on his deep outs and in and doesn't put anything on his short passes so his wrs have to stop. I also knew Raye was the reason Hill locks on to guys and doesn't turn his head and gets flustered in the pocket and blows. Please..

Apparently you didn't read any of the posts hater. The guy would have been ranked 4th in the NFL in total yards last year and those 2,000+ yards he threw were coming in off the bench in a complex system where it is designed to throw DOWNFIELD and downfield often. I agree (as he would) that he's not the most gifted QB and benefited from first, sitting and learning about how to be a QB from other QB's. But you can't deny that our o-line, ultra-conservative play-calling and "don't lose the game by taking ANY chances" hasn't factored into his game this year. It's night and day. Watch the highlight reel above...a lot of those throws were pinpoint accurate some 20+ yards and across the field. He can make the throws. This year, he's not trusted YET to make those throws or any audibles (which is huge BTW). Is it all Raye's fault. No, he's a new OC and is still learning about what Hill and the entire offense is capable of and under the blessing of Singletary. But to say he sucks and can't make the throws is ignorant esp. given last year when he DID make those throws.
  • kem99
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 578
Originally posted by jdt84_2:
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by dman:
I just can't see Shaun Hill winning any Super Bowls.

maybe, but did anyone see Dilfer of all people winning one, and Hill is 100 times better IMO than Dilfer. So anythings possible.

The Dilfer example gets thrown around a lot as the ultimate example of the "manage the game" QB that won a SB. Unfortunately, a couple of things are usually forgotten: (1) Yes, Dilfer won a SB but he had a historically good defense behind him. I believe they set a record for fewest points allowed and throughout that year and then after the SB, there were discussions and comparisons made to the '85 Bears defense as to which defense was better. The 49er defense has certainly improved but it would be disingenuous to expect it to be in the same discussion as the Ravens SB defense; and (2) okay, Dilfer won his SB but he never got close prior to that year or after that year. In fact, over the last decade or so the teams that had "manage the game" type QBs that have gotten to or won a SB have tended not to have extended success. For example, the Ravens never got back to a SB despite having a top defense and top RB even after trying to upgrade their QB position. The Bucs won one year with Brad Johnson and a very good defense but never got close again. In the meantime, teams that have had recent extended success regardless of whether they have won a SB or not (Pats, Steelers, Colts, Giants, Eagles) have all had franchise type QBs.

So, its fine to point to Dilfer or Brad Johnson and say Hill can do what they did. Just remember what history shows the limitations are if you believe in the "manage the game" QB. With that said, Hill is the best they have and this is the best type of offense to suit his strengths but its likely that Singletary and/or the 49ers front office understand his limitations long term as well, which is why they wooed Warner and may look to draft a franchise type QB in the 2010 draft.

whoa whoa. the ravens have had sustained success just like the eagle and the colts, they are constantly in the playoff hunt and SB contenders. then big ben is not an elite QB, he is a very good QB and in his 1st SB he did exactly what hill is doing now.

and the ravens had a better string of success than the giants have had.

Okay...I can give you the Ravens as an exception although since their SB win their season records have actually been up and down: 10-6 (2001), 7-9 (2002), 10-6 (2003), 9-7 (2004), 6-10 (2005), 13-3 (2006), 5-11 (2007), 11-5 (2008)...so until last year when they apparently found their franchise QB, that's 4 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, a 60-52 record, 1 HC fired, and never getting past the divisional round.

As for Big Ben, he's a franchise QB...he has 2 SB's, won last year's on a 2 minute drill drive at the end, the Steelers rely on him more and more to make plays when everything breaks down...he wasn't elite in winning the first SB, he is now.
  • kem99
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 578
Originally posted by NCommand:
What's not surprising is that Hill is ranked 24th in pass ATTEMPTS. That speaks to a very conservative offense? Can he pass more? Of course...he was on pace to throw for over 4,100 yards last year. He only started 8 games and finished the year ranked 12th in the entire league. Had he played a whole year, even under Martz's pared-down offense, he would have been 4th in total yards.

24 Shaun Hill SF 57
25 Trent Edwards 56
25 Carson Palmer 56
25 Tony Romo 56
28 Matt Hasselbeck 54
28 JaMarcus Russell 54
30 Mark Sanchez 53
31 Brett Favre 48
32 Matt Cassel 39

So what's changed? I'd have to say our philosophy and an old-school OC who doesn't understand Hill's abilities/strengths yet.

What's interesting is that some of these players on this list are/were injured or also have good/great defenses and rely mostly on the run. Hill is proving he can play in a wide-open offense such as Martz and a very conservative offense in Raye.

I think some of you need to back off, get perspective and realize Hill is only doing what he's coached and that is to manage games and not lose them. Period. Two weeks in a row now, when he is turned loose, he leads us to winning but ONLY when given the chance - there are no audibles in this offense. It's ALL Raye!

The 49ers have run more pass plays than running plays through 2 games. Its not the run:pass balance. Its that he's not getting the ball down the field that is the issue.
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by dman:
I just can't see Shaun Hill winning any Super Bowls.

maybe, but did anyone see Dilfer of all people winning one, and Hill is 100 times better IMO than Dilfer. So anythings possible.

Dilfer had defense. Hill has defense. When was the last time a team won the Superbowl solely because they had offense (Rams?)? Defense normally wins the big ones, not a high-scoring offense.
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by NCommand:
What's not surprising is that Hill is ranked 24th in pass ATTEMPTS. That speaks to a very conservative offense? Can he pass more? Of course...he was on pace to throw for over 4,100 yards last year. He only started 8 games and finished the year ranked 12th in the entire league. Had he played a whole year, even under Martz's pared-down offense, he would have been 4th in total yards.

24 Shaun Hill SF 57
25 Trent Edwards 56
25 Carson Palmer 56
25 Tony Romo 56
28 Matt Hasselbeck 54
28 JaMarcus Russell 54
30 Mark Sanchez 53
31 Brett Favre 48
32 Matt Cassel 39

So what's changed? I'd have to say our philosophy and an old-school OC who doesn't understand Hill's abilities/strengths yet.

What's interesting is that some of these players on this list are/were injured or also have good/great defenses and rely mostly on the run. Hill is proving he can play in a wide-open offense such as Martz and a very conservative offense in Raye.

I think some of you need to back off, get perspective and realize Hill is only doing what he's coached and that is to manage games and not lose them. Period. Two weeks in a row now, when he is turned loose, he leads us to winning but ONLY when given the chance - there are no audibles in this offense. It's ALL Raye!

The 49ers have run more pass plays than running plays through 2 games. Its not the run:pass balance. Its that he's not getting the ball down the field that is the issue.

He's only attempted 57 passes. 24th in the league...we may have passed more then run we still haven't had nearly the attempts the rest of the league has attempted and that's my point.
Originally posted by dman:
I just can't see Shaun Hill winning any Super Bowls.

He will, as Sam Bradford or Colt McCoy's backup.
Originally posted by waiting4number6:
Originally posted by dman:
I just can't see Shaun Hill winning any Super Bowls.

He will, as Sam Bradford or Colt McCoy's backup.

I kind of think both are overrated, so i hope the niners actually dont pick a qb next year
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 31,249
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
What's not surprising is that Hill is ranked 24th in pass ATTEMPTS. That speaks to a very conservative offense? Can he pass more? Of course...he was on pace to throw for over 4,100 yards last year. He only started 8 games and finished the year ranked 12th in the entire league. Had he played a whole year, even under Martz's pared-down offense, he would have been 4th in total yards.

24 Shaun Hill SF 57
25 Trent Edwards 56
25 Carson Palmer 56
25 Tony Romo 56
28 Matt Hasselbeck 54
28 JaMarcus Russell 54
30 Mark Sanchez 53
31 Brett Favre 48
32 Matt Cassel 39

So what's changed? I'd have to say our philosophy and an old-school OC who doesn't understand Hill's abilities/strengths yet.

What's interesting is that some of these players on this list are/were injured or also have good/great defenses and rely mostly on the run. Hill is proving he can play in a wide-open offense such as Martz and a very conservative offense in Raye.

I think some of you need to back off, get perspective and realize Hill is only doing what he's coached and that is to manage games and not lose them. Period. Two weeks in a row now, when he is turned loose, he leads us to winning but ONLY when given the chance - there are no audibles in this offense. It's ALL Raye!

His low passing numbers are because he doesn't throw to the wr's enough. He is struggling through his reads, and that might be having to do with learning a new system. But make no mistake, Hill as a qb limits the plays you can call as an OC, there is just no way around it. I can almost guarantee you that you will not see Raye call a deep out pattern for Hill, he just doesn't have the arm to make some throws that the top tier qb's in the league can make. Not that he can't throw it down the field, but he cannot put enough velocity on it to keep it from hanging up and fluttering in the breeze. As long as he doesn't cost s games I got no problem with him.

Check the out-route to Josh Morgan at 1:45-2:00 in this video. Hill just needs to settle down in this offense and he will start to take more shots down field. Raye's just a little too conservative IMO.

That was Hill with a 20 yard out, not really a deep out and a nice throw anyways. Raye wasn't calling the plays either though.

So you don't consider a 20 yard out a deep out?? OK, probably medium, but that's still a nice pass in a NFL size window. I'll say this once and I'll say it again, Hill has enough arm strength to run this offense and the WCO. Laser rocket arms are over rated. I'd take a smart QB with decent arm strength over a laser rocket arm any day.