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So... is it Hill or is it our W.R.'s?

Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by young9er:
Originally posted by lamontb:
I think it's both but it's more the WR's than Hill imo. I don't think the Wr's are really getting open. These wr's just aren't that great. And Bruce did drop a couple balls yesterday.

This. Hill isn't the best QB in the league, but I think our WR's have more to do with it than Hills ability to get them the ball. Bruce is on pace for an 800yrd 64 catch year, which isn't that bad considering he's 36 years old. The other guys (Morgan, Battle) just aren't as good as some people believe they are.

But in reality it's a 3 way combination of a mediocre QB, mediocre WR group, and a conservative offense that limits mistakes with short, high percentage passes. JT'Oturnovers showed us all what happens when a mediocre QB and WR's try to have an aggresive, high risk offense.

It's been reported, this Viking game is the game where Shaun Hill will indeed need to do more than hand off to Frank Gore. The Vikings gameplan is really clear and simple..... Stop Frank Gore and make Shaun Hill PROVE he can beat you.

Seattle & Arizona had that same perspective! And let's be honest, if not for two big 4th Q drives by HILL, we probably would't be 2-0 right now. Seattle is a weak team in stopping the run and we always run great against them. They, like AZ, stacked 8-9 in the box and we still beat them with Gore which is what Singletary wanted.

I imagine the Vikings will do the same thing but b/c of the predetermined play-calling by Raye (e.g. no audibles) and Singletary's desire to "punch 'em in the mouth," I hope we can keep it close enough to give Hill another shot at winning it in the 4th Q.

I do expect Raye to open the playbook up a little more each week but I'd be SHOCKED to truly see a game plan that is designed around Hill at this point. In short, it doesn't matter what the Vikings do, only Gore, the o-line and the defense will be asked to win this one IMHO.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by young9er:
Originally posted by lamontb:
I think it's both but it's more the WR's than Hill imo. I don't think the Wr's are really getting open. These wr's just aren't that great. And Bruce did drop a couple balls yesterday.

This. Hill isn't the best QB in the league, but I think our WR's have more to do with it than Hills ability to get them the ball. Bruce is on pace for an 800yrd 64 catch year, which isn't that bad considering he's 36 years old. The other guys (Morgan, Battle) just aren't as good as some people believe they are.

But in reality it's a 3 way combination of a mediocre QB, mediocre WR group, and a conservative offense that limits mistakes with short, high percentage passes. JT'Oturnovers showed us all what happens when a mediocre QB and WR's try to have an aggresive, high risk offense.

It's been reported, this Viking game is the game where Shaun Hill will indeed need to do more than hand off to Frank Gore. The Vikings gameplan is really clear and simple..... Stop Frank Gore and make Shaun Hill PROVE he can beat you.

Seattle & Arizona had that same perspective! And let's be honest, if not for two big 4th Q drives by HILL, we probably would't be 2-0 right now. Seattle is a weak team in stopping the run and we always run great against them. They, like AZ, stacked 8-9 in the box and we still beat them with Gore which is what Singletary wanted.

I imagine the Vikings will do the same thing but b/c of the predetermined play-calling by Raye (e.g. no audibles) and Singletary's desire to "punch 'em in the mouth," I hope we can keep it close enough to give Hill another shot at winning it in the 4th Q.

I do expect Raye to open the playbook up a little more each week but I'd be SHOCKED to truly see a game plan that is designed around Hill at this point. In short, it doesn't matter what the Vikings do, only Gore, the o-line and the defense will be asked to win this one IMHO.

It's funny because the same thinking on the 9ers side..... Stop R.B. Peterson and make Farve PROVE he can beat 9ers. The only problem is who would bet against Brett Farve?

This my friends will not be an easy game. If the 9ers can stop Farve (even an older Farve) and Peterson, then I think we ALL say WOW!
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by young9er:
Originally posted by lamontb:
I think it's both but it's more the WR's than Hill imo. I don't think the Wr's are really getting open. These wr's just aren't that great. And Bruce did drop a couple balls yesterday.

This. Hill isn't the best QB in the league, but I think our WR's have more to do with it than Hills ability to get them the ball. Bruce is on pace for an 800yrd 64 catch year, which isn't that bad considering he's 36 years old. The other guys (Morgan, Battle) just aren't as good as some people believe they are.

But in reality it's a 3 way combination of a mediocre QB, mediocre WR group, and a conservative offense that limits mistakes with short, high percentage passes. JT'Oturnovers showed us all what happens when a mediocre QB and WR's try to have an aggresive, high risk offense.

It's been reported, this Viking game is the game where Shaun Hill will indeed need to do more than hand off to Frank Gore. The Vikings gameplan is really clear and simple..... Stop Frank Gore and make Shaun Hill PROVE he can beat you.

Seattle & Arizona had that same perspective! And let's be honest, if not for two big 4th Q drives by HILL, we probably would't be 2-0 right now. Seattle is a weak team in stopping the run and we always run great against them. They, like AZ, stacked 8-9 in the box and we still beat them with Gore which is what Singletary wanted.

I imagine the Vikings will do the same thing but b/c of the predetermined play-calling by Raye (e.g. no audibles) and Singletary's desire to "punch 'em in the mouth," I hope we can keep it close enough to give Hill another shot at winning it in the 4th Q.

I do expect Raye to open the playbook up a little more each week but I'd be SHOCKED to truly see a game plan that is designed around Hill at this point. In short, it doesn't matter what the Vikings do, only Gore, the o-line and the defense will be asked to win this one IMHO.

It's funny because the same thinking on the 9ers side..... Stop R.B. Peterson and make Farve PROVE he can beat 9ers. The only problem is who would bet against Brett Farve?

This my friends will not be an easy game. If the 9ers can stop Farve (even an older Farve) and Peterson, then I think we ALL say WOW!

I can tell you that most Niner fans get a sick feeling in their stomach when we here the words "Make Farve prove he can beat the 49ers". All those painful memories of Brett pulling ridiculous plays out of his ass to beat the 49ers come to mind.
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by B650:
We have a rough stretch of games coming up after the Rams game.

ATL
Bye
@HOU
@IND
CHI
@GB

Now, what happens after this is all said and done if we're staring at a 4-5 record? Do we still keep saying, "Well, Hill is in a defined offense and we're winning?" I just don't think it matters much that we're 2-0. We need to play better on offense if we're going to get anywhere. What good is a 1st round exit from the playoffs, assuming we even get there? The bottom line is the passing game must improve because being 2-0 is not going to be an excuse forever.


If our D keeps playing the way they have been, they will keep us in the game against every one of those teams. Doesnt mean we will win or lose, but I dont see any of those teams lighting us up. Other than ATL and GB, I think all of them have questions like we do. GB sure did make a case for having holes though when they lost to the Bengals.

It doesn't matter if you're still competitive if you're LOSING games. This isn't Craps, where you're losing but have alot of house money on the table under yours. If you aren't pulling it then it means squat cause the house will beat you into submission every time.

Indy? You don't see us losing to INDY?!? Did you WATCH their last game? 15 minutes of overall ToP for Indy and they beat the Fins, who did EVERYTHING right. They kept penalties to a minimum controlled the clock with the Wildcat and took their chances down the field with some solid passing. In MOST dimensional time threads they Win. In THIS one? Not so much. Now I don't see Indy being able to sustain that kind of play game in and game out, but against our team? We lose. That freakin simple.

Chicago also still has that Ball hawk Defense. You cannot stand in the pocket like Hill has and hold the ball missing OPEN Receivers and throwing into double coverage to your security blanket(Bruce) forcing passes like he has the last two games.

So I don't know about you but all of those games scare me, given the overall Offensive product that we have seen.

Mario freakin Williams will have a good day if Shaun is QB1 and continues to hold the ball longer than 3 seconds.

~Ceadder
Originally posted by djfullshred:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by young9er:
Originally posted by lamontb:
I think it's both but it's more the WR's than Hill imo. I don't think the Wr's are really getting open. These wr's just aren't that great. And Bruce did drop a couple balls yesterday.

This. Hill isn't the best QB in the league, but I think our WR's have more to do with it than Hills ability to get them the ball. Bruce is on pace for an 800yrd 64 catch year, which isn't that bad considering he's 36 years old. The other guys (Morgan, Battle) just aren't as good as some people believe they are.

But in reality it's a 3 way combination of a mediocre QB, mediocre WR group, and a conservative offense that limits mistakes with short, high percentage passes. JT'Oturnovers showed us all what happens when a mediocre QB and WR's try to have an aggresive, high risk offense.

It's been reported, this Viking game is the game where Shaun Hill will indeed need to do more than hand off to Frank Gore. The Vikings gameplan is really clear and simple..... Stop Frank Gore and make Shaun Hill PROVE he can beat you.

Seattle & Arizona had that same perspective! And let's be honest, if not for two big 4th Q drives by HILL, we probably would't be 2-0 right now. Seattle is a weak team in stopping the run and we always run great against them. They, like AZ, stacked 8-9 in the box and we still beat them with Gore which is what Singletary wanted.

I imagine the Vikings will do the same thing but b/c of the predetermined play-calling by Raye (e.g. no audibles) and Singletary's desire to "punch 'em in the mouth," I hope we can keep it close enough to give Hill another shot at winning it in the 4th Q.

I do expect Raye to open the playbook up a little more each week but I'd be SHOCKED to truly see a game plan that is designed around Hill at this point. In short, it doesn't matter what the Vikings do, only Gore, the o-line and the defense will be asked to win this one IMHO.

It's funny because the same thinking on the 9ers side..... Stop R.B. Peterson and make Farve PROVE he can beat 9ers. The only problem is who would bet against Brett Farve?

This my friends will not be an easy game. If the 9ers can stop Farve (even an older Farve) and Peterson, then I think we ALL say WOW!

I can tell you that most Niner fans get a sick feeling in their stomach when we here the words "Make Farve prove he can beat the 49ers". All those painful memories of Brett pulling ridiculous plays out of his ass to beat the 49ers come to mind.

I know.... what has a more realistic tone

"Make Farve prove he can beat the 9ers" or "Make Hill prove he can beat the Vikes"

Of course we are pulling for Hill and 9ers, it would be a huge feather in Hills cap.
[ Edited by BigMar on Sep 24, 2009 at 4:06 PM ]
I do not for one moment think the niner's wrs cannot get open. I think the problem if it is one is how much of a chance are you willing to take? I saw many passes made by qbs where the dbs had a chance to make a play. If you have a good team do you take risks and lose or play it safe and have a decent chance to win? One thing you need to ask is can the niners move when and if needed? They have in Cards game. Like Steve Young says, it is a tactic good qbs learn but dumb ones never. I think this game will be interesting since I believe the niners have some guys who can make marks in this game like Parys and Ray Macdonald. I think Favre will get pounded then the niners will squeeze down on Peterson. The niners have some of the fastest linebackers around and I think can shut Peterson down. I also think we have better depth and quality of DL then the Vikings do. They could have better frontline players but I think we have better depth. I am not convinced the Vikings are that solid as they played some poor teams and had some trouble. The niners played two teams who are tough and expected to be in the hunt. This is a game where the niners could wipe out the Vikings if they are not up to their best. I would love to see Nate Davis in the kittycat offense. You put him out wide and if a reciever gets deep 7 points. If they don't even use him, the Vikings would wet their pants knowing what he could do.
Originally posted by prometheus:
I do not for one moment think the niner's wrs cannot get open. I think the problem if it is one is how much of a chance are you willing to take? I saw many passes made by qbs where the dbs had a chance to make a play. If you have a good team do you take risks and lose or play it safe and have a decent chance to win? One thing you need to ask is can the niners move when and if needed? They have in Cards game. Like Steve Young says, it is a tactic good qbs learn but dumb ones never. I think this game will be interesting since I believe the niners have some guys who can make marks in this game like Parys and Ray Macdonald. I think Favre will get pounded then the niners will squeeze down on Peterson. The niners have some of the fastest linebackers around and I think can shut Peterson down. I also think we have better depth and quality of DL then the Vikings do. They could have better frontline players but I think we have better depth. I am not convinced the Vikings are that solid as they played some poor teams and had some trouble. The niners played two teams who are tough and expected to be in the hunt. This is a game where the niners could wipe out the Vikings if they are not up to their best. I would love to see Nate Davis in the kittycat offense. You put him out wide and if a reciever gets deep 7 points. If they don't even use him, the Vikings would wet their pants knowing what he could do.

I think the Vikes game is the first game this season that Hill is gonna have to do and prove more than he did in the last 2 games.

Frank Gore is Da Man.... but Hill gotta show more than he has to date too!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by young9er:
Originally posted by lamontb:
I think it's both but it's more the WR's than Hill imo. I don't think the Wr's are really getting open. These wr's just aren't that great. And Bruce did drop a couple balls yesterday.

This. Hill isn't the best QB in the league, but I think our WR's have more to do with it than Hills ability to get them the ball. Bruce is on pace for an 800yrd 64 catch year, which isn't that bad considering he's 36 years old. The other guys (Morgan, Battle) just aren't as good as some people believe they are.

But in reality it's a 3 way combination of a mediocre QB, mediocre WR group, and a conservative offense that limits mistakes with short, high percentage passes. JT'Oturnovers showed us all what happens when a mediocre QB and WR's try to have an aggresive, high risk offense.

It's been reported, this Viking game is the game where Shaun Hill will indeed need to do more than hand off to Frank Gore. The Vikings gameplan is really clear and simple..... Stop Frank Gore and make Shaun Hill PROVE he can beat you.

Seattle & Arizona had that same perspective! And let's be honest, if not for two big 4th Q drives by HILL, we probably would't be 2-0 right now. Seattle is a weak team in stopping the run and we always run great against them. They, like AZ, stacked 8-9 in the box and we still beat them with Gore which is what Singletary wanted.

I imagine the Vikings will do the same thing but b/c of the predetermined play-calling by Raye (e.g. no audibles) and Singletary's desire to "punch 'em in the mouth," I hope we can keep it close enough to give Hill another shot at winning it in the 4th Q.

I do expect Raye to open the playbook up a little more each week but I'd be SHOCKED to truly see a game plan that is designed around Hill at this point. In short, it doesn't matter what the Vikings do, only Gore, the o-line and the defense will be asked to win this one IMHO.

Except this is the Vikings.... not the Hawks or Cards, and not the NFC West.
Didn't read everything in this thread but to answer the question I believe it's Hill and not the WRs.

For starters these two games Hill has just displayed terrible pocket presence. What I mean is not just sacks but the times when he has plenty of time to make the throw he doesn't take advantage of it and just quickly hits short passes. The more time you're able to spend in the pocket the higher the odds you're going to be able to hit a big play but we'll never know since he dumps the ball off before anything has a chance to develop.

Secondly he's locking on to target which lead to him making a few dangerous throws in double in triple coverage in the Card's game. He hardly seems to scan the field and see if anything better is open.

Playing conservatively is ok but looking at the bigger picture this kind of play would never cut it in the playoffs or top teams in the league when you need to make the most of your opportunities. I just think he plays over conservative and I think that could cost us some games down the line.

Look I'm not saying Hill isn't our best option at the moment and he's not a terrible QB but he's just not a good one either. Hill is an average QB that's better suited for a backup role and the sooner he's upgraded the better off our team will be. I think people who think he'll become anything more than average will be very disappointed.
[ Edited by Jikkle49 on Sep 26, 2009 at 3:18 PM ]
Originally posted by Twister68:
Yes, let's all start whining. Like we would be 3-0 after 2 games if we had more passing yards and catches.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Easily, it's Hill. He's no different than a Jeff Garcia type. They LOVE the 15 and under throws and the middle of the field. They love looking for the crossing routes. Garcia always had and Hill always will have difficulty finding the WRs. Hill even admitted that he had a couple of chances but did not make the throw considering the situation of the game and where they were at.

Like Steve Young said, "That's not good QBing, that's great QBing."

However, take a look at his 3rd down conversions on that long drive: dude came through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While I don't think Hill is even close to a great QB, he is serviceable when the rest of the team plays good.

And 0 int's in 2 games is a great stat
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Originally posted by Jikkle49:
Didn't read everything in this thread but to answer the question I believe it's Hill and not the WRs.

For starters these two games Hill has just displayed terrible pocket presence. What I mean is not just sacks but the times when he has plenty of time to make the throw he doesn't take advantage of it and just quickly hits short passes. The more time you're able to spend in the pocket the higher the odds you're going to be able to hit a big play but we'll never know since he dumps the ball off before anything has a chance to develop.

Secondly he's locking on to target which lead to him making a few dangerous throws in double in triple coverage in the Card's game. He hardly seems to scan the field and see if anything better is open.

Playing conservatively is ok but looking at the bigger picture this kind of play would never cut it in the playoffs or top teams in the league when you need to make the most of your opportunities. I just think he plays over conservative and I think that could cost us some games down the line.

Look I'm not saying Hill isn't our best option at the moment and he's not a terrible QB but he's just not a good one either. Hill is an average QB that's better suited for a backup role and the sooner he's upgraded the better off our team will be. I think people who think he'll become anything more than average will be very disappointed.


Not like you care , but I agree 100% , lost in the 2 good drives he's made in 2 games is the horrible decision making and the tendency to bail out to the short small gain option. To be honest he looks scared, I also agree he will never be anything more than he is right now.
I think it is Hill... he looks like he is tossing a hand grenade, rather then stepping into the throw and drilling it to the WR..

In order for Hill to lead a receiver, he has to throw the ball before they break the huddle.
Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
I think it is Hill... he looks like he is tossing a hand grenade, rather then stepping into the throw and drilling it to the WR..

In order for Hill to lead a receiver, he has to throw the ball before they break the huddle.

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Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
I think it is Hill... he looks like he is tossing a hand grenade, rather then stepping into the throw and drilling it to the WR..

In order for Hill to lead a receiver, he has to throw the ball before they break the huddle.

This:

Smith to Gilmore for 75 yards

Compared to this:

Shaun Hill to Isaac Brue for 50 yards

Now tell me, which receiver catches his pass in-stride??