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Crabtree Discussion Thread

  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,983
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Seems most teams decided to fill needs as opposed to selecting the BPA. Outside of the Jets no team traded up into the top 10, as again it is costly especially when factoring in what one has to also pay the draft pick as well.

Or they didn't think he was the bpa. The point is that the only evidence to support the fact that Crabtree was a top-3 talent was that analysts said he was.

My point: I don't care what he thinks he's worth. He's been offered a fair deal. He's holding out for more money that he won't get. What he's doing is f**king stupid. Period.

I bet there are teams out there who if they had taken him at 10 would be willing to pay him, unlike us. Why ? Probably because players with ceilings as high as his being taken at 10 don't come around or happen often if hardly ever.

And FWIW some of those analysts are former players and or NFL execs and know talent when they see it.

The league is full of history of draftee's with ceilings higher than what has come before falling right on their ass and not amounting to anything.

Those draftee's however rarely ever fall like Crabtree did.

Normally when you get a player like that you want to get him signed. Does it really seem like the 49ers really want to get Crabtree signed with their stance ?

Look here's the deal. The guy is unproven, he could be the second coming of Jerry Rice, but he damn sure isn't until he proves otherwise, which is far from an easy thing to do (making the jump from being a top talent in the collegiate's to being one in the NFL). If this was an easy correlation, there wouldn't be much issue to this s**t, people wouldn't fall or rise in the draft at all..they would be slotted and it would pan out the way it was slotted and everything would be nice and tidy. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, TOP TALENTS IN THE COLLEGIATE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DON'T PAN OUT AS A TOP NFL TALENT NO MATTER WHICH SLOT THEY ARE DRAFTED AT, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE FALLEN OR RISEN. IT'S A CRAP SHOOT THAT THEY WILL TRANSLATE INTO A TOP NFL TALENT.

You can't fault the organization for adhering to good business sense. They are investing in a top collegiate talent that is unproven in a league with a history full of top collegiate talents who have fallen and/or risen in the draft and have not translated into top NFL talents.


The fact is this: It's the NFL, it's an entirely different animal than the collegiates....you gotta prove yourself against the best now, every week. If you do, you get rewarded with a big contract, if you don't, your sent packing in one way or another, and you take a big cut along the way.

If we trade him for another pick and that pick busts and MC has a storied career will we still have made a move would we have adhered to a good business sense ?

Is a good business sense to not try and negotiate ? To make one offer and if the offer is balked at to walk away in hopes eventually the other side might cave and if not oh well ?

It's a team sport. Look, I want Craptree signed, not because I think he is the best, not could be the best. I could give two s**ts if he was drafted at 1, 3, 10, 60, or 200 or even came on as an undrafted FA. I want him signed because I want all the talent the team can it's hands on and I want them to get on the field and compete and then I want the best of all those to go out on Sunday and kick some ass. Craptree isn't doing any of that, hasn't done any of that in the past at this level, which makes his value (to me) less than any other talent on the team. Why?

Because, there is a standing system by which contracts are negotiated and signed in place that every single other draftee and undrafted FA in this league this year has had no problem adjusting to. That's a lot of people, and yet..here we have this ONE, ONE out of how many (500?), that somehow thinks it should be a different system for him for whatever reason. That's a crock of s**t my man, it doesn't fly when you don't have a lick of experience playing in the pro's, no matter who the f**k think you are talent wise, or anybody else thinks you are, including all the so called talent experts, GM's, ex player's or team mascots. And, it damn sure doesn't fly when you only have so many roster spots, and the competition for those spots is fierce, like it is in the NFL.

I don't know where are getting this "not negotiating" thin from. The only being done with media involvement. That doesn't translate into there is nothing going on, including negotiations.

Bottom line is that is has happened in the past that a team has negotiated outside of the slotted worth, position of the player drafted is meaningless because any way you look at that it WAS done before.

The real problem here is that there is no rookie salary cap and until there is players & agents can continue to pull this if they so choose. Our best bet would be to try and get him signed and be more aggressive in our pursuit.

From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.
Originally posted by Chief:
I wonder if Crabtree will watch the game on Sunday...

Craptree after seeing Q.B. Hill throw one of his noodle arm floater >>>
  • SoCold
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 49,034
Originally posted by Chief:
I wonder if Crabtree will watch the game on Sunday...

Must be cool not to worry about losing a $300,000 game check.
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,983
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Crabtree's cousin said he'd be willing to sit out the whole year....he only sat out 40 some odd says....Crabtree has not done what his cousin said.

He said Crabtree would sit out the whole year. Crabtree didn't deny it and, to this point, has given zero indication that he plans to sign.

It doesn't really matter, though, because you're arguing semantics here.

I'll say it again (read slowly): My point is that Crabtree's decision to hold out is stupid. If you disagree, tell me why. If not, run along now.

Crabtree never acknowledged what his cousin said either.

If the 49ers decision is to let Crabtree hold out for the whole season without ever making another contract offer beyond the initial offer then it is a stupid decision on the organizations behalf.

Why bother? This goes higher than just the 9ers the comish made it clear he didn’t want any rookie going too far out of the price slot so as high as 9 as low as 11 anywhere in between but Crabs is NOT getting the 5, 6, 7, slot money he wants end of story.

Sorry can’t help you bye bye

I stated before I don't care what we pay him but we need to up the offer if the current one doesn't cut it.

If the Commish and the league wanted it to be clear that no player gets more than slotted worth then why did they approve Brady Quinn's contract ? Why have they not put a rookie salary cap in place to date ? I'm sorry but the league is sending mixed signals and players and or agents will look to take advantage of this when they believe they can.
  • jame-gumb
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,983
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Just a reminder....the 9ers have 2 first round picks in 2010 draft they will have to negotiate with and sign. Therfore, they Cannot cave in to Craptree outrages demands as that will clearly set a bad stage for our 2010 1st round negotiations.

9er are being MORE than fair and should not get strongarmed by Craptree.

No one knows for sure if paying Crabtree will have a negative effect on next years picks or not. Will never know until next year.

Stop speculating when you have no basis for your claim.

Please Stop it..... If the 9ers pay Craptree or any player for that matter, MILLIONS of dollars MORE than his draft slot indicates, don't sit there and try to tell us the same game won't be played next year by the agents of the first rounders we select.
Come on, get real!

Again it is not truly known. One can assume but assuming doesn't make it true. Lots of assumptions have proven to be wrong. Everyone assumed VD would be great, they assumed Reggie Bush was Jesus in Cleats...they assumed voting for George Bush was good idea....how did those turn out ?

So to quote Big Mar............Please stop it.

Come on now, you recognize what I said is close to reality. You are simply trying to not acknowlege facts. Good try, but you failed.

I have read too many of your posts that I would have liked to and no I don't recognize anything you say.

Good try but you fail. Keep on keeping on.

Re-visit reply 2220.

Re-visit my last response to you.
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,034
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Crabtree's cousin said he'd be willing to sit out the whole year....he only sat out 40 some odd says....Crabtree has not done what his cousin said.

He said Crabtree would sit out the whole year. Crabtree didn't deny it and, to this point, has given zero indication that he plans to sign.

It doesn't really matter, though, because you're arguing semantics here.

I'll say it again (read slowly): My point is that Crabtree's decision to hold out is stupid. If you disagree, tell me why. If not, run along now.

Crabtree never acknowledged what his cousin said either.

If the 49ers decision is to let Crabtree hold out for the whole season without ever making another contract offer beyond the initial offer then it is a stupid decision on the organizations behalf.

Why bother? This goes higher than just the 9ers the comish made it clear he didn’t want any rookie going too far out of the price slot so as high as 9 as low as 11 anywhere in between but Crabs is NOT getting the 5, 6, 7, slot money he wants end of story.

Sorry can’t help you bye bye

I stated before I don't care what we pay him but we need to up the offer if the current one doesn't cut it.

If the Commish and the league wanted it to be clear that no player gets more than slotted worth then why did they approve Brady Quinn's contract ? Why have they not put a rookie salary cap in place to date ? I'm sorry but the league is sending mixed signals and players and or agents will look to take advantage of this when they believe they can.


Im with you on this. Let's pay him. People are saying that it will happen to us again next year if we cave in. It won't because there could be a rookie cap by next year, if not next year it will be in 2011. No rookie will hold out net year and threaten to go back to the 2011 draft because if the rookie cap is in place they will get paid less. The Niners will have way more leverage next year.
  • SoCold
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 49,034
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Seems most teams decided to fill needs as opposed to selecting the BPA. Outside of the Jets no team traded up into the top 10, as again it is costly especially when factoring in what one has to also pay the draft pick as well.

Or they didn't think he was the bpa. The point is that the only evidence to support the fact that Crabtree was a top-3 talent was that analysts said he was.

My point: I don't care what he thinks he's worth. He's been offered a fair deal. He's holding out for more money that he won't get. What he's doing is f**king stupid. Period.

I bet there are teams out there who if they had taken him at 10 would be willing to pay him, unlike us. Why ? Probably because players with ceilings as high as his being taken at 10 don't come around or happen often if hardly ever.

And FWIW some of those analysts are former players and or NFL execs and know talent when they see it.

The league is full of history of draftee's with ceilings higher than what has come before falling right on their ass and not amounting to anything.

Those draftee's however rarely ever fall like Crabtree did.

Normally when you get a player like that you want to get him signed. Does it really seem like the 49ers really want to get Crabtree signed with their stance ?

Look here's the deal. The guy is unproven, he could be the second coming of Jerry Rice, but he damn sure isn't until he proves otherwise, which is far from an easy thing to do (making the jump from being a top talent in the collegiate's to being one in the NFL). If this was an easy correlation, there wouldn't be much issue to this s**t, people wouldn't fall or rise in the draft at all..they would be slotted and it would pan out the way it was slotted and everything would be nice and tidy. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, TOP TALENTS IN THE COLLEGIATE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DON'T PAN OUT AS A TOP NFL TALENT NO MATTER WHICH SLOT THEY ARE DRAFTED AT, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE FALLEN OR RISEN. IT'S A CRAP SHOOT THAT THEY WILL TRANSLATE INTO A TOP NFL TALENT.

You can't fault the organization for adhering to good business sense. They are investing in a top collegiate talent that is unproven in a league with a history full of top collegiate talents who have fallen and/or risen in the draft and have not translated into top NFL talents.


The fact is this: It's the NFL, it's an entirely different animal than the collegiates....you gotta prove yourself against the best now, every week. If you do, you get rewarded with a big contract, if you don't, your sent packing in one way or another, and you take a big cut along the way.

If we trade him for another pick and that pick busts and MC has a storied career will we still have made a move would we have adhered to a good business sense ?

Is a good business sense to not try and negotiate ? To make one offer and if the offer is balked at to walk away in hopes eventually the other side might cave and if not oh well ?

It's a team sport. Look, I want Craptree signed, not because I think he is the best, not could be the best. I could give two s**ts if he was drafted at 1, 3, 10, 60, or 200 or even came on as an undrafted FA. I want him signed because I want all the talent the team can it's hands on and I want them to get on the field and compete and then I want the best of all those to go out on Sunday and kick some ass. Craptree isn't doing any of that, hasn't done any of that in the past at this level, which makes his value (to me) less than any other talent on the team. Why?

Because, there is a standing system by which contracts are negotiated and signed in place that every single other draftee and undrafted FA in this league this year has had no problem adjusting to. That's a lot of people, and yet..here we have this ONE, ONE out of how many (500?), that somehow thinks it should be a different system for him for whatever reason. That's a crock of s**t my man, it doesn't fly when you don't have a lick of experience playing in the pro's, no matter who the f**k think you are talent wise, or anybody else thinks you are, including all the so called talent experts, GM's, ex player's or team mascots. And, it damn sure doesn't fly when you only have so many roster spots, and the competition for those spots is fierce, like it is in the NFL.

I don't know where are getting this "not negotiating" thin from. The only being done with media involvement. That doesn't translate into there is nothing going on, including negotiations.

Bottom line is that is has happened in the past that a team has negotiated outside of the slotted worth, position of the player drafted is meaningless because any way you look at that it WAS done before.

The real problem here is that there is no rookie salary cap and until there is players & agents can continue to pull this if they so choose. Our best bet would be to try and get him signed and be more aggressive in our pursuit.

From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.



The difference is guaranteed money I broke down the average in another thread.

On average contracts are the same per position drafted like the two QB’s taken last year and this year same exact contract with a 25% increase in guaranteed money this year.

Crabs wants about a 50% increase it doesn’t work that way.
  • Chief
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,893
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by Chief:
I wonder if Crabtree will watch the game on Sunday...

Craptree after seeing Q.B. Hill throw one of his noodle arm floater >>>

Hill does not have that bad of an arm.
  • jame-gumb
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by KRS-1:
I'm sorry but the league is sending mixed signals and players and or agents will look to take advantage of this when they believe they can.

And SF is trying to send a clear signal: They won't let rookies take advantage of this. I have no problem with that.

Look, if a transcendental player were there at No. 10, I wouldn't have a problem with SF going over slot for him. I don't think Crabtree is that player. Maybe that's SF's opinion as well.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Seems most teams decided to fill needs as opposed to selecting the BPA. Outside of the Jets no team traded up into the top 10, as again it is costly especially when factoring in what one has to also pay the draft pick as well.

Or they didn't think he was the bpa. The point is that the only evidence to support the fact that Crabtree was a top-3 talent was that analysts said he was.

My point: I don't care what he thinks he's worth. He's been offered a fair deal. He's holding out for more money that he won't get. What he's doing is f**king stupid. Period.

I bet there are teams out there who if they had taken him at 10 would be willing to pay him, unlike us. Why ? Probably because players with ceilings as high as his being taken at 10 don't come around or happen often if hardly ever.

And FWIW some of those analysts are former players and or NFL execs and know talent when they see it.

The league is full of history of draftee's with ceilings higher than what has come before falling right on their ass and not amounting to anything.

Those draftee's however rarely ever fall like Crabtree did.

Normally when you get a player like that you want to get him signed. Does it really seem like the 49ers really want to get Crabtree signed with their stance ?

Look here's the deal. The guy is unproven, he could be the second coming of Jerry Rice, but he damn sure isn't until he proves otherwise, which is far from an easy thing to do (making the jump from being a top talent in the collegiate's to being one in the NFL). If this was an easy correlation, there wouldn't be much issue to this s**t, people wouldn't fall or rise in the draft at all..they would be slotted and it would pan out the way it was slotted and everything would be nice and tidy. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, TOP TALENTS IN THE COLLEGIATE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DON'T PAN OUT AS A TOP NFL TALENT NO MATTER WHICH SLOT THEY ARE DRAFTED AT, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE FALLEN OR RISEN. IT'S A CRAP SHOOT THAT THEY WILL TRANSLATE INTO A TOP NFL TALENT.

You can't fault the organization for adhering to good business sense. They are investing in a top collegiate talent that is unproven in a league with a history full of top collegiate talents who have fallen and/or risen in the draft and have not translated into top NFL talents.


The fact is this: It's the NFL, it's an entirely different animal than the collegiates....you gotta prove yourself against the best now, every week. If you do, you get rewarded with a big contract, if you don't, your sent packing in one way or another, and you take a big cut along the way.

If we trade him for another pick and that pick busts and MC has a storied career will we still have made a move would we have adhered to a good business sense ?

Is a good business sense to not try and negotiate ? To make one offer and if the offer is balked at to walk away in hopes eventually the other side might cave and if not oh well ?

It's a team sport. Look, I want Craptree signed, not because I think he is the best, not could be the best. I could give two s**ts if he was drafted at 1, 3, 10, 60, or 200 or even came on as an undrafted FA. I want him signed because I want all the talent the team can it's hands on and I want them to get on the field and compete and then I want the best of all those to go out on Sunday and kick some ass. Craptree isn't doing any of that, hasn't done any of that in the past at this level, which makes his value (to me) less than any other talent on the team. Why?

Because, there is a standing system by which contracts are negotiated and signed in place that every single other draftee and undrafted FA in this league this year has had no problem adjusting to. That's a lot of people, and yet..here we have this ONE, ONE out of how many (500?), that somehow thinks it should be a different system for him for whatever reason. That's a crock of s**t my man, it doesn't fly when you don't have a lick of experience playing in the pro's, no matter who the f**k think you are talent wise, or anybody else thinks you are, including all the so called talent experts, GM's, ex player's or team mascots. And, it damn sure doesn't fly when you only have so many roster spots, and the competition for those spots is fierce, like it is in the NFL.

I don't know where are getting this "not negotiating" thin from. The only being done with media involvement. That doesn't translate into there is nothing going on, including negotiations.

Bottom line is that is has happened in the past that a team has negotiated outside of the slotted worth, position of the player drafted is meaningless because any way you look at that it WAS done before.

The real problem here is that there is no rookie salary cap and until there is players & agents can continue to pull this if they so choose. Our best bet would be to try and get him signed and be more aggressive in our pursuit.

From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

Yes, some teams may have negotiated outside of the slot, even the 49er's may have at some time. That doesn't mean that we should be doing it with Craptree today. Why would we? WTF for? It's more trouble than it's worth, opens more can's of worms than it closes, doesn't make Craptree anymore/less of a sure thing than he already is/isn't. In other words, it doesn't change that he is a crapshoot. Nothing can change that except for Craptree, and he's choosing not to change it. Which is just plain ass stupidity on his part, not ours. It's the facts, he's a crapshoot, sorry, only Craptree can change that and paying him more won't change that fact.
  • Squirrel
  • Info N/A
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong:

The 49ers made an offer and presented it to Parker. Parker took it to Crabtree, and the two have said no way. Since then, there have been no communication, right?

So, how can the two sides come to an agreement if they won't talk to each other?
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Just a reminder....the 9ers have 2 first round picks in 2010 draft they will have to negotiate with and sign. Therfore, they Cannot cave in to Craptree outrages demands as that will clearly set a bad stage for our 2010 1st round negotiations.

9er are being MORE than fair and should not get strongarmed by Craptree.

No one knows for sure if paying Crabtree will have a negative effect on next years picks or not. Will never know until next year.

Stop speculating when you have no basis for your claim.

Please Stop it..... If the 9ers pay Craptree or any player for that matter, MILLIONS of dollars MORE than his draft slot indicates, don't sit there and try to tell us the same game won't be played next year by the agents of the first rounders we select.
Come on, get real!

Again it is not truly known. One can assume but assuming doesn't make it true. Lots of assumptions have proven to be wrong. Everyone assumed VD would be great, they assumed Reggie Bush was Jesus in Cleats...they assumed voting for George Bush was good idea....how did those turn out ?

So to quote Big Mar............Please stop it.

Come on now, you recognize what I said is close to reality. You are simply trying to not acknowlege facts. Good try, but you failed.

I have read too many of your posts that I would have liked to and no I don't recognize anything you say.

Good try but you fail. Keep on keeping on.

Re-visit reply 2220.

Re-visit my last response to you.

copycat
Originally posted by Chief:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by Chief:
I wonder if Crabtree will watch the game on Sunday...

Craptree after seeing Q.B. Hill throw one of his noodle arm floater >>>

Hill does not have that bad of an arm.

Originally posted by Squirrel:
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong:

The 49ers made an offer and presented it to Parker. Parker took it to Crabtree, and the two have said no way. Since then, there have been no communication, right?

So, how can the two sides come to an agreement if they won't talk to each other?

The last "reported" talk between the two sides was on Aug 25.

I'm sure there have been more talks recently. The media just hasn't been given any notice.

All I know is Crabtree is in the Bay Area and apparently in shape, but he hasn't said a damn thing since the holdout, while the 49ers brass seem upbeat about the talks.

[ Edited by DesiDez on Sep 10, 2009 at 11:50:14 ]