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Burnout?

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Grigga2021:
Look the bottom line is, Sing knows what it takes to become a championship team and this is how championship teams train.

You gotta earn it....coach knows that.

So did Bill Walsh and he minimized contact and preaching. Look at the better coaches in the league such as Belachick, Andy Ried, Holmgren, and some other brainiacs that believe in being a technician over brute force. The guys like Ditka come strong but they burn fast. Players can only take that for so long when they begin understanding that the game isn't all about full speed and need that extra learning of the smaller intricacies of the game which is what makes a dynasty.

I understand what you're saying, and I think you may have a valid point. (I do think you're jumping the gun, somewhat.) I also think there's another way to look at it.

The thing that's overlooked, somewhat (not necessarily in your posts), seems to me to be that Singletary's not just running a physically tough training camp. He's equally requiring more, MENTALLY, from the team.

Frankly, I think the whole "oh, Singletary's TC is so physical" stuff is overblown. His TC cannot that much more demanding, physically, than those of other NFL teams. It may just seem that way because of the laxity of the past six years or so at Niner's TCs.

When Singletary stops practice, or makes the whole team run, it's because of a mental lapse of some kind. He's demanding that the entire team concentrate better, and he's insisting that the team focus more on what they're trying to accomplish.

Hard work, determination, focus, guts, heart, dedication--ultimately it may be the team's mental toughness that makes the difference as much as any physical prowess, and I think that's what Singletary's trying to instill as much as any "old school" "boot camp" physical conditioning.

Yes, we hear alot about the "nutcracker"--but that's not just a physically tough conditioning drill. Its almost like a statement exercise: "we're going to get back to the basics, and try to whip other teams by being tougher, mentally as well as physically."

No shortcuts, no "going around" the opponent, no nonsense, no finesse, no tricks, no quit--we're simply going to out-tough the other guy.

Its been my experience that such a mindset can be extremely difficult to beat, and it's one reason why sometimes less gifted guys can defeat physically superior opponents. It starts with a mental state, a mindset.

Singletary, himself, may have been one of the premier embodiments of that kind of mindset during his playing days. He was not the most physically imposing MLB, but he was going to be there all day, and the more physical it got, the better he responded, mentally. "I like this kind of party" as he would say.

The "nutcracker" drill seems kind of symbolic, as much as anything, of what Singletary's trying to get across to the team, and to instill in them.

Just the fact that Singletarty's trying to instill such an attitude in the team during TC is a stark contrast to the practices of his predecessor.

It will be interesting to see how it translates to the field on Sundays this fall.

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I am jumping the gun. It was just a thought of the comparisons to the coaches who aren't worried about physicality as much as technicality as the ones I have stated compared to coaches who are all about "brut" and physical play such as Fisher, the Vikings style, Ravens style,...those teams flame out and rely heavier on one player to put them into the Superbowl category whereas the "McKitric type of team lasts longer because it's more mental.
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Grigga2021:
Look the bottom line is, Sing knows what it takes to become a championship team and this is how championship teams train.

You gotta earn it....coach knows that.

So did Bill Walsh and he minimized contact and preaching. Look at the better coaches in the league such as Belachick, Andy Ried, Holmgren, and some other brainiacs that believe in being a technician over brute force. The guys like Ditka come strong but they burn fast. Players can only take that for so long when they begin understanding that the game isn't all about full speed and need that extra learning of the smaller intricacies of the game which is what makes a dynasty.

I understand what you're saying, and I think you may have a valid point. (I do think you're jumping the gun, somewhat.) I also think there's another way to look at it.

The thing that's overlooked, somewhat (not necessarily in your posts), seems to me to be that Singletary's not just running a physically tough training camp. He's equally requiring more, MENTALLY, from the team.

Frankly, I think the whole "oh, Singletary's TC is so physical" stuff is overblown. His TC cannot that much more demanding, physically, than those of other NFL teams. It may just seem that way because of the laxity of the past six years or so at Niner's TCs.

When Singletary stops practice, or makes the whole team run, it's because of a mental lapse of some kind. He's demanding that the entire team concentrate better, and he's insisting that the team focus more on what they're trying to accomplish.

Hard work, determination, focus, guts, heart, dedication--ultimately it may be the team's mental toughness that makes the difference as much as any physical prowess, and I think that's what Singletary's trying to instill as much as any "old school" "boot camp" physical conditioning.

Yes, we hear alot about the "nutcracker"--but that's not just a physically tough conditioning drill. Its almost like a statement exercise: "we're going to get back to the basics, and try to whip other teams by being tougher, mentally as well as physically."

No shortcuts, no "going around" the opponent, no nonsense, no finesse, no tricks, no quit--we're simply going to out-tough the other guy.

Its been my experience that such a mindset can be extremely difficult to beat, and it's one reason why sometimes less gifted guys can defeat physically superior opponents. It starts with a mental state, a mindset.

Singletary, himself, may have been one of the premier embodiments of that kind of mindset during his playing days. He was not the most physically imposing MLB, but he was going to be there all day, and the more physical it got, the better he responded, mentally. "I like this kind of party" as he would say.

The "nutcracker" drill seems kind of symbolic, as much as anything, of what Singletary's trying to get across to the team, and to instill in them.

Just the fact that Singletarty's trying to instill such an attitude in the team during TC is a stark contrast to the practices of his predecessor.

It will be interesting to see how it translates to the field on Sundays this fall.

As I noted in another thread, to be inspired, motivated, and led by a leader, whether it be business, athletics, or fun, is a different world. For example - and not to demean any one - but try working for a small startup with little capital, and great idea, and lots of energy...and compare that to working with almost any large organization.

The mindset is the difference...and kudos to previous posters.
Another note:

I just feel like Singletary is THAT coach. You know, the coach who sets up the pins for a braniac to knock them all over for the finish.

He seems like Parcells type of coach who can turn around a team in a year but usually has trouble keeping them up because their philosophy in terms of their types of antics can only last so long.

I said it before, once a player hits that sports "nirvana" and understands that he runs a 4.5 but he knows how to keep up with a rookie who runs a 4.2, then that players needs more information for motivation which is where the Walsh type of coach comes along.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Another note:

I just feel like Singletary is THAT coach. You know, the coach who sets up the pins for a braniac to knock them all over for the finish.

He seems like Parcells type of coach who can turn around a team in a year but usually has trouble keeping them up because their philosophy in terms of their types of antics can only last so long.

I said it before, once a player hits that sports "nirvana" and understands that he runs a 4.5 but he knows how to keep up with a rookie who runs a 4.2, then that players needs more information for motivation which is where the Walsh type of coach comes along.

Look, you're never going to be able to adequately compare Singletary, or any other NFL HC, adequately to Bill Walsh, to me.

And it's really unfair to Singletary to try, IMHO.

Singletary's a different guy, different time, different generation--so let's agree to stop making the impossible comparison(s) with Bill Walsh right now. Bill Walsh is the measure that all other NFL HCs merely aspire to, IMHO.

As to Singletary, I have to disagree with your assessment somewhat. We don't know, yet, if he's gonna be "that coach" who sets up the pins for the other, brainiac coaches to knock down. Its way too early to tell.

We don't know if he's totally set in his ways, or if his present, drill sergeant demeanor is the way he's doing it for his new charges, and if he will turn into a more intellectual, Xs and Os type of coach once he's got the players instilled with the attitude he wants.

I won't compare him to the incomparable. But I wouldn't underestimate him either, at this point.

Let's be fair, and wait to see, shall we? (No more questioning whether there's gonna be a "burnout" after just one day's TC. K?)

[ Edited by oldninerdude on Aug 3, 2009 at 16:39:05 ]
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Another note:

I just feel like Singletary is THAT coach. You know, the coach who sets up the pins for a braniac to knock them all over for the finish.

He seems like Parcells type of coach who can turn around a team in a year but usually has trouble keeping them up because their philosophy in terms of their types of antics can only last so long.

I said it before, once a player hits that sports "nirvana" and understands that he runs a 4.5 but he knows how to keep up with a rookie who runs a 4.2, then that players needs more information for motivation which is where the Walsh type of coach comes along.

Look, you're never going to be able to adequately compare Singletary, or any other NFL HC, adequately to Bill Walsh, to me.

And it's really unfair to Singletary to try, IMHO.

Singletary's a different guy, different time, different generation--so let's agree to stop making the impossible comparision(s) with Bill Walsh right now. Bill Walsh is the measure that all other NFL HCs merely aspire to, IMHO.

As to Singletary, I have to disagree with your assessment somewhat. We don't know, yet, if he's gonna be "that coach" who sets up the pins for the other, brainiac coaches to knock down. Its way too early to tell.

We don't know if he's totally set in his ways, or if his present, drill sergeant demeanor is the way he's doing it for his new charges, and if he will turn into a more intellectual, Xs and Os type of coach once he's got the players instilled with the attitude he wants.

I won't compare him to the incomparable. But I wouldn't underestimate him either, at this point.

Let's be fair, and wait to see, shall we? (No more questioning whether there's gonna be a "burnout" after just one day's TC. K?)

One thing is for sure: haven't really seen a coach like him before. Let's hope he's a trailblazer.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Joecool:
And to add, I'm not sure how giving a 5-8 minute talk throughout practice will work either. HOF or not, sooner or later, any player is going to start thinking about, [I don't see you doing this s**t right now old man]. Not that it would be deserved to think that of Sing, but it's only natural.

TWo days into TC and you're nit picking Singletary's coaching? Isn't this the HOF middle LB who went to ten (10) pro bowls during his career? Didn't he show some pretty good football smarts in his stint as "interim" HC last season?

Hasn't he begun to change the losing culture of the past six (6) years, and done so, so far, by completely demolishing the country club atmosphere established by his predecessor--and his predecessor's sloppy practices.

Think that change might have an effect on the play we see on the field in the upcoming season?

Come on, Joe, can't you give him just a little time, cut him just a little slack? Before you start a thread titled "Burnout?"

Yes, I am nit picking on noting some thoughts only. However, in "the old days", motivational speeches and killer training worked well when guys bodies and minds were not worth more than even a million dollars. Now, you mess with a guys body and it costs that player multi-millions in future investments of himself. It's not the same game. A guy getting paid $80,000 a year who has some of that money, let's say $40k to lose can be made up much easier than a guy who is getting paid $4 million and can lose $2 million if he gets hurt.

These guys are training year round, busting their arses off year round only to hear that they aren't working hard enough from a guy from an era where players rarely worked in the offseason. From a guy from an era where when football season or TC began, they were already salivating to play a kids game? Present players don't salivate at TC to desperately play a kids game because their off season never ended and they weren't away from it long enough to miss it.

I'm just saying, it's different mentality going into TC than it was in 85. Also, with how much bigger, stronger, and faster these players are, they hit bigger, stronger and faster so it could possibly burn them out by week 8, especially rookies.


In the 1970’s you had a lot of players making $200K or more Jack Lambert in 1978 was paid $200K a year not $80K. Many WR, QB, RB were paid much higher salaries. During this era training shifted. Players were making enough just playing football that they would take 4-8 weeks off (unless you were a Raider) to heal and then they would begin working out and getting ready for training camp.

By the ‘80s (the old days) players were working year round. Where a all pro like Lambert was paid $200K a second round rookie named Mike Singletary could hold out 1981 and get paid $250K or more his rookie year. Salaries were going up 10-20% per year. Walter Payton by 1985 was getting $500K a year. When free agency kicked in as of 1987 salaries really took off. Again, QB, WR, RB were paid more then LB Montana was one of the first $1 million QB.

Point being to all of this, by 1981 players like Lott, Singletary, Montana, original LT were viewing football as a business and worked year round to stay healthy. If injured in camp they did lose a lot of money. Considering inflations etc. missing a season was expensive. This is an era where you could still buy a home in a nice area of San Jose for $90-120K Just like now players back then were getting tired of the screamers, yellers, and drill Sgt type coaches and wanted a coach to treat them like a man.

I think Singletary does treat them like men however he wants them to be tougher then they have been in the past. I agree with him that many players do not use or have forgotten basic fundamental football. Watch high light film every guy is going for the knock out and what happens they miss or they are trying to arm tackle while off balance Sing is trying to bring that back. Willis is good because of his talent and the time Singletary spent teaching him fundamentals. Willis plays balanced, understands how to use angles and tackles through his man that is why he is going to end up being great.
Originally posted by Bejaard49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Joecool:
And to add, I'm not sure how giving a 5-8 minute talk throughout practice will work either. HOF or not, sooner or later, any player is going to start thinking about, [I don't see you doing this s**t right now old man]. Not that it would be deserved to think that of Sing, but it's only natural.

TWo days into TC and you're nit picking Singletary's coaching? Isn't this the HOF middle LB who went to ten (10) pro bowls during his career? Didn't he show some pretty good football smarts in his stint as "interim" HC last season?

Hasn't he begun to change the losing culture of the past six (6) years, and done so, so far, by completely demolishing the country club atmosphere established by his predecessor--and his predecessor's sloppy practices.

Think that change might have an effect on the play we see on the field in the upcoming season?

Come on, Joe, can't you give him just a little time, cut him just a little slack? Before you start a thread titled "Burnout?"

Yes, I am nit picking on noting some thoughts only. However, in "the old days", motivational speeches and killer training worked well when guys bodies and minds were not worth more than even a million dollars. Now, you mess with a guys body and it costs that player multi-millions in future investments of himself. It's not the same game. A guy getting paid $80,000 a year who has some of that money, let's say $40k to lose can be made up much easier than a guy who is getting paid $4 million and can lose $2 million if he gets hurt.

These guys are training year round, busting their arses off year round only to hear that they aren't working hard enough from a guy from an era where players rarely worked in the offseason. From a guy from an era where when football season or TC began, they were already salivating to play a kids game? Present players don't salivate at TC to desperately play a kids game because their off season never ended and they weren't away from it long enough to miss it.

I'm just saying, it's different mentality going into TC than it was in 85. Also, with how much bigger, stronger, and faster these players are, they hit bigger, stronger and faster so it could possibly burn them out by week 8, especially rookies.


In the 1970’s you had a lot of players making $200K or more Jack Lambert in 1978 was paid $200K a year not $80K. Many WR, QB, RB were paid much higher salaries. During this era training shifted. Players were making enough just playing football that they would take 4-8 weeks off (unless you were a Raider) to heal and then they would begin working out and getting ready for training camp.

By the ‘80s (the old days) players were working year round. Where a all pro like Lambert was paid $200K a second round rookie named Mike Singletary could hold out 1981 and get paid $250K or more his rookie year. Salaries were going up 10-20% per year. Walter Payton by 1985 was getting $500K a year. When free agency kicked in as of 1987 salaries really took off. Again, QB, WR, RB were paid more then LB Montana was one of the first $1 million QB.

Point being to all of this, by 1981 players like Lott, Singletary, Montana, original LT were viewing football as a business and worked year round to stay healthy. If injured in camp they did lose a lot of money. Considering inflations etc. missing a season was expensive. This is an era where you could still buy a home in a nice area of San Jose for $90-120K Just like now players back then were getting tired of the screamers, yellers, and drill Sgt type coaches and wanted a coach to treat them like a man.

I think Singletary does treat them like men however he wants them to be tougher then they have been in the past. I agree with him that many players do not use or have forgotten basic fundamental football. Watch high light film every guy is going for the knock out and what happens they miss or they are trying to arm tackle while off balance Sing is trying to bring that back. Willis is good because of his talent and the time Singletary spent teaching him fundamentals. Willis plays balanced, understands how to use angles and tackles through his man that is why he is going to end up being great.

I understand, I wonder what the average pay was for a player who was not a star. It was still the transition between average pay and lucrative contracts as they are now. The mentality was just different in terms of personal investment. The great teams would work hard year around but it was still a transition time from the real old days and the 90s.
  • WestCoastNut
  • Info N/A
The big boys on the OL ESPECIALLY need to be in extreme shape. They'll need to dominate the opposing D lines in the fourth quarter when they normally will be tired, or Sing's big plans for smash mouth won't amount to much.
The Fysical is getting noticed more and more. I do have one note: What does a team with smaller players or weaker players do to beat a team with players who are physically better?

A smaller, weaker team must execute better and use misdirection but even the misdirection, they must execute without mistakes.

Most NFL teams are not very far apart so what sets them apart? Is it the "F" in physical or is it the "X" in execute?

Welcome to Camp Singletary
Originally posted by MadMartz:
Only the strong survive!

I like that quote right there.
Originally posted by 49erForLife420:
I love singletery's style it is awesome

i thought you liked doggy style better?
Who wants some PAIN!!!

  • TOP_CAT
  • Info N/A
I love what sing is doing .Getting his team ready to be the team that keeps fighting and toughs it out at the end of games (when the other team is running out of gas and giving up). But in reality,how tough can this camp really be when there is NO tackling allowed by anyone,even though they are all in pads ? I think this "Drill sgt. Sing" stuff is being a bit overblown.