Opinion on Manny Lawson

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
I would just like to understand why some Niner fans get completely pushed out of shape over fans who are optimistic about a player or an upcoming season. What exactly is with that? It's like going to a wedding and in the middle of the festivities, reminding the happy couple that only half of all marriages work out. What's the point?

You are right. I am wrong.

Shaun Hill will throw for 18,000 yards in 2009.
Frank Gore will rush for 2400 yards, and have 137 receptions and 36 TD's in 2009.
Manny Lawson will have 20 sacks in 2009.
Parys Haralson will have 45 sacks in 2009.
Michael Crabtree will win the MVP award after catching 589 balls for 9578 yards in 2009.

Screw stats, logic, rational thought, a clear head, any form of historical perspective, objective analysis. I am entitled to my opinion, and how dare anyone criticize me. How dare anyone challenge anything I say. I mean, it is simply a message board.

While I am at it: The World Trade Center was moved by aliens to the planet Cyborg, Mormons do live on the dark side of the moon, the earth will end in 2012, and meat does not have protein.

Cheers.

Dude, no one is saying that you can't have your own opinion, but you do sound a little hypocritical going off on people for challenging your opinion when you just called those with differing opinions “very silly”. Respect goes two ways. If you want respect, you have to give it in return. So what if people are overly optimistic? Like you said, this is just a message board. The truth is that while stats can be an excellent barometer of future performance, they don’t always tell the whole story. Prior to 2007 James Harrison never had more than 3 sacks in a season. In 2007, his 4th in the league he had 8.5 and 16.5 last year. Prior to last year Matt Cassell had never started a game at the college or pro level, yet he went on to post really good numbers anyway. Players mature at different rates. To blindly say that a player can’t or won’t excel simply based on past performances. Is just as bad as guaranteeing he will, especially when that player has all the tools to succeed and has dealt with injuries and schemes that aided in him not succeeding up to now.

Originally posted by BMore9ersfan:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
I would just like to understand why some Niner fans get completely pushed out of shape over fans who are optimistic about a player or an upcoming season. What exactly is with that? It's like going to a wedding and in the middle of the festivities, reminding the happy couple that only half of all marriages work out. What's the point?

You are right. I am wrong.

Shaun Hill will throw for 18,000 yards in 2009.
Frank Gore will rush for 2400 yards, and have 137 receptions and 36 TD's in 2009.
Manny Lawson will have 20 sacks in 2009.
Parys Haralson will have 45 sacks in 2009.
Michael Crabtree will win the MVP award after catching 589 balls for 9578 yards in 2009.

Screw stats, logic, rational thought, a clear head, any form of historical perspective, objective analysis. I am entitled to my opinion, and how dare anyone criticize me. How dare anyone challenge anything I say. I mean, it is simply a message board.

While I am at it: The World Trade Center was moved by aliens to the planet Cyborg, Mormons do live on the dark side of the moon, the earth will end in 2012, and meat does not have protein.

Cheers.

Dude, no one is saying that you can't have your own opinion, but you do sound a little hypocritical going off on people for challenging your opinion when you just called those with differing opinions “very silly”. Respect goes two ways. If you want respect, you have to give it in return. So what if people are overly optimistic? Like you said, this is just a message board. The truth is that while stats can be an excellent barometer of future performance, they don’t always tell the whole story. Prior to 2007 James Harrison never had more than 3 sacks in a season. In 2007, his 4th in the league he had 8.5 and 16.5 last year. Prior to last year Matt Cassell had never started a game at the college or pro level, yet he went on to post really good numbers anyway. Players mature at different rates. To blindly say that a player can’t or won’t excel simply based on past performances. Is just as bad as guaranteeing he will, especially when that player has all the tools to succeed and has dealt with injuries and schemes that aided in him not succeeding up to now.

The section you put in bold was sarcasm on my part.

Here is what it comes down to: If a person has completely lost all form of objectivity, then I will criticize. Blind homerism only makes this board a joke. I'm just simply trying to shake these people into reality, and improve rational arguments. Wild, irrational predictions overrun the board this time of the year. I can't help whacking these people over the head with their outrageous statements.

Did any person who voted for 10 sacks or more look at stats last year and ask themselves the question: Will Manny finish in the top 12 in sacks in 2009? If someone made this a new thread, they'd be trashed (however, anything is possible on the board). And yet, a quarter of the board thinks that Manny Lawson is an elite pass rusher.

The last statement is irrational, so voting for 10 sacks or more is also irrational.

P.S. Sometimes people will go out on a limb and make an outrageous prediction. For instance, if someone makes a thread stating that Gore will run for 1700 yards this year, they are going to need to clearly explain how this crazy number will be achieved. If argued well, then I have no problem.

10-12...if we blitz him more.

NIIIIINE!

I'd really like to say 8+ sacks, but I think it's too hard to say from what we've seen from him so far. So I will just shoot low and say 5 sacks, hope that he can stay healthy for the entire season, and know that he'll be good in coverage. And if the 9ers scheme fits him this season, then maybe I'll go back to the 8+.

6-8

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by BMore9ersfan:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
I would just like to understand why some Niner fans get completely pushed out of shape over fans who are optimistic about a player or an upcoming season. What exactly is with that? It's like going to a wedding and in the middle of the festivities, reminding the happy couple that only half of all marriages work out. What's the point?

You are right. I am wrong.

Shaun Hill will throw for 18,000 yards in 2009.
Frank Gore will rush for 2400 yards, and have 137 receptions and 36 TD's in 2009.
Manny Lawson will have 20 sacks in 2009.
Parys Haralson will have 45 sacks in 2009.
Michael Crabtree will win the MVP award after catching 589 balls for 9578 yards in 2009.

Screw stats, logic, rational thought, a clear head, any form of historical perspective, objective analysis. I am entitled to my opinion, and how dare anyone criticize me. How dare anyone challenge anything I say. I mean, it is simply a message board.

While I am at it: The World Trade Center was moved by aliens to the planet Cyborg, Mormons do live on the dark side of the moon, the earth will end in 2012, and meat does not have protein.

Cheers.

Dude, no one is saying that you can't have your own opinion, but you do sound a little hypocritical going off on people for challenging your opinion when you just called those with differing opinions “very silly”. Respect goes two ways. If you want respect, you have to give it in return. So what if people are overly optimistic? Like you said, this is just a message board. The truth is that while stats can be an excellent barometer of future performance, they don’t always tell the whole story. Prior to 2007 James Harrison never had more than 3 sacks in a season. In 2007, his 4th in the league he had 8.5 and 16.5 last year. Prior to last year Matt Cassell had never started a game at the college or pro level, yet he went on to post really good numbers anyway. Players mature at different rates. To blindly say that a player can’t or won’t excel simply based on past performances. Is just as bad as guaranteeing he will, especially when that player has all the tools to succeed and has dealt with injuries and schemes that aided in him not succeeding up to now.

The section you put in bold was sarcasm on my part.

Here is what it comes down to: If a person has completely lost all form of objectivity, then I will criticize. Blind homerism only makes this board a joke. I'm just simply trying to shake these people into reality, and improve rational arguments. Wild, irrational predictions overrun the board this time of the year. I can't help whacking these people over the head with their outrageous statements.

Did any person who voted for 10 sacks or more look at stats last year and ask themselves the question: Will Manny finish in the top 12 in sacks in 2009? If someone made this a new thread, they'd be trashed (however, anything is possible on the board). And yet, a quarter of the board thinks that Manny Lawson is an elite pass rusher.

The last statement is irrational, so voting for 10 sacks or more is also irrational.

P.S. Sometimes people will go out on a limb and make an outrageous prediction. For instance, if someone makes a thread stating that Gore will run for 1700 yards this year, they are going to need to clearly explain how this crazy number will be achieved. If argued well, then I have no problem.

I agree that in all probability Lawson won't have 10+ sacks next year. Somewhere between 6 and 10 is more likely. However, I do not feel that it's out of the question that he could crack the 10 mark. He has all of the tools to be one of the top sack artists in the league. Whether or not he can put it all together and get’s it done is the question. As a rule, I hate prediction threads. All too often they turn into nothing more than arguments. You either have people making predictions that are either way to high or way to low. So I do my best to stay away from predictions.

I also agree with you on the question of “blind homerism” as you call it. From day to day one can read some pretty outrages statements on this board, but I don’t put saying Manny can get more 10+ sacks into the blind homerism category. Manny becoming a elite pass rusher is more of an improbability that an impossibility. Like I said, he appears to have all the tools necessary, he just hasn’t put them all together. Maybe he will or maybe he won’t. I don’t know, but I’d like to think that he will some day. What I call blind homerism is when I read statements like “I wouldn’t choose any QB in the league outside of Manning or Brady over Hill”. Those types of ridicules statements drive me crazy and you see them all the time around here.

Manny will be good this year.. he has to .. he was a one of our top picks in 06 i beleive and really hasnt amounted to much so far, but has shown glimmers of brilliance. I know he Tore his ACL, I currently have a torn ACL ( not that any cares) but il say it sucks and hurts, i hope this doesnt come to be a problem in the future.

I expect Manny to get 8 - 10, if he is used properly. That would mean he has to be on the field for more 1st and 2nd down.

What do people base lawson getting 8+ sacks off of?

I mean, what has he done in the past to even make you think that he could have that many?

I understand that he was used in a way that a 3-4 OLB shouldn't really be, but even in the chances he had to rush the passer, he didn't do jacks**t.

So, I ask again, what do you base the assumption off of?

I've got two reasons why I'm optimistic Lawson can have a "break-out" season and get more sacks than he has before:

1. They say he will be used primarily as a pass rusher this year. That's a change in scheme.
2. They report that he is finally back to 100% health.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Michael Crabtree will win the MVP award after catching 589 balls for 9578 yards in 2009.

That... would... be... AWESOME!!!!!

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
I've got two reasons why I'm optimistic Lawson can have a "break-out" season and get more sacks than he has before:

1. They say he will be used primarily as a pass rusher this year. That's a change in scheme.
2. They report that he is finally back to 100% health.

I would like to be as optimistic as you are BrodieFan, but even if used as just a pass-rusher, he still gets locked up one on one. He's a bit like Sopoaga, improper leverage with only power to try and shed off his blocks, and also gets pushed pass the pocket at times. But hopefully new pass rush specialist Al Harris can refined Lawson technique, we shall see. For now, I'm gonna say a 5-6 sack season for 2009.

I guess I'm what someone might call a realistic optimist. I'm optimistic, but I still understand the odds are not with me. With Lawson, I just can't get past a drill I saw where he came around the outside looking like he was shot out of a cannon. I don't know I've seen anyone as quick as he was that day, period. So, I have hope that with the right coaching and the right scheme, he can still be a terror.

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
I guess I'm what someone might call a realistic optimist. I'm optimistic, but I still understand the odds are not with me. With Lawson, I just can't get past a drill I saw where he came around the outside looking like he was shot out of a cannon. I don't know I've seen anyone as quick as he was that day, period. So, I have hope that with the right coaching and the right scheme, he can still be a terror.

But you're right, the right scheme should also help. Lawson was definitely out of place in Nolan's 4-2-5 "Big Tickle" defense. Any longer in Nolan's defense and you could probably mark down Lawson as a bust. But I feel you, if you saw a moment where you thought Lawson was going to be a menace in this league I know where your coming from. I think the same with Sopoaga, where he completely owned Olin Kruetz in Preseason in 2006. Unfortunately, Sopoaga has been inconsistent since then, but I'm still optimistic about him.