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John Harbaugh: Patriots' titles have asterisks, are stained

Harbaugh is absolutely correct and IMO, he didn't go far enough (likely to sidestep further controversy). They cheated, pure and simple. And any discussion about their championships should include ALL of the factors that led to it. They won three Super Bowls by three points each time, so Bruschi can miss me with the "we were just that good" crap. It seems like common sense to me that if taping other teams practices and defensive signals provided no benefit, they wouldn't have bothered to do it in the first place.

Goodell and the Pats must think everyone else is an idiot to believe otherwise.
[ Edited by baltien on May 1, 2012 at 12:01 PM ]
Originally posted by baltien:
Harbaugh is absolutely correct and IMO, he didn't go far enough (likely to sidestep further controversy). They cheated, pure and simple. And any discussion about their championships should include ALL of the factors that led to it. They won three Super Bowls by three points each time, so Bruschi can miss me with the "we were just that good" crap. It seems like common sense to me that if taping other teams practices and defensive signals provided no benefit, they wouldn't have bothered to do it in the first place.

Goodell and the Pats must think everyone else is an idiot to believe otherwise.

Yet NOBODY on your side can ever explain exactly how it would have provided an advantage Especially nobody has EVER countered the fact that all teams use jargon, rotatings signals, deceptive signals and code, as safeguards against visual or audio eavesdropping.

And I and others have given a reason on why they did it. A, Belichick is very thorough, and yes maybe he was looking to pick up on a tendency or maybe he wanted to see how well the other teams use the above safeguards, and improve his own safeguards.

People on my side of the argument give answers, all your side does is pose questions
Originally posted by danimal:
Yet NOBODY on your side can ever explain exactly how it would have provided an advantage Especially nobody has EVER countered the fact that all teams use jargon, rotatings signals, deceptive signals and code, as safeguards against visual or audio eavesdropping.

And I and others have given a reason on why they did it. A, Belichick is very thorough, and yes maybe he was looking to pick up on a tendency or maybe he wanted to see how well the other teams use the above safeguards, and improve his own safeguards.

People on my side of the argument give answers, all your side does is pose questions

Hard to explain anything when the evidence was destroyed. Though I'm sure I'll hear a very (ill)logical reason why that happened. To you and others that share your opinion, I ask:

If video taping another team's walkthroughs and/or defensive signals provides no benefit then why would a team REPEATEDLY do so? And only stop AFTER being caught?

Again, it was done for a reason. Just because we don't immediately know those reasons doesn't absolve them of any wrongdoing.
[ Edited by baltien on May 1, 2012 at 12:20 PM ]
bahahaha no. Every team does this kinda stuff. Get your heads out of the sand.
Originally posted by aman49:
bahahaha no. Every team does this kinda stuff. Get your heads out of the sand.

I agree, but they got caught. Which is all that matters.
Originally posted by baltien:
Originally posted by danimal:
Yet NOBODY on your side can ever explain exactly how it would have provided an advantage Especially nobody has EVER countered the fact that all teams use jargon, rotatings signals, deceptive signals and code, as safeguards against visual or audio eavesdropping.

And I and others have given a reason on why they did it. A, Belichick is very thorough, and yes maybe he was looking to pick up on a tendency or maybe he wanted to see how well the other teams use the above safeguards, and improve his own safeguards.

People on my side of the argument give answers, all your side does is pose questions

Hard to explain anything when the evidence was destroyed. Though I'm sure I'll hear a very (ill)logical reason why that happened. Again, to you and others that share your opinion, I ask:

If video taping another team's walkthroughs and/or defensive signals provides no benefit then why would a team REPEATEDLY do so? And only stop AFTER being caught?

Again, it was done for a reason. Just because we don't immediately know those reasons doesn't absolve them of any wrongdoing.

I already gave a supposition in response to the bolded, what is your response to that?

As to the destroyed tapes so now we will never know logic....LMAO. People use your brains. Was this a taping of a secret meeting? No. All the Rams present on that day can easily tell the world exactly what they did and exactly how the Pats could have exploited.

Just assume the Pats have taped every single opponents team walk through and sideline for the game for every game for many many years. Why not just assume that. Just assume they captured EVERYTTHING. OK, pretty safe assumption and now the tapes don't matter.

Simply ask any of the hundreds of NFL coaches what they did or didn't do that would have given the Belichick an marked advantage? Cricketsville on this front. Instead they act dumb, well gee even though I have been a coach for 20 years I just couldn't say that I know what happened in that walk through....derp derp.
Originally posted by danimal:
I already gave a supposition in response to the bolded, what is your response to that?

As to the destroyed tapes so now we will never know logic....LMAO. People use your brains. Was this a taping of a secret meeting? No. All the Rams present on that day can easily tell the world exactly what they did and exactly how the Pats could have exploited.

Just assume the Pats have taped every single opponents team walk through and sideline for the game for every game for many many years. Why not just assume that. Just assume they captured EVERYTTHING. OK, pretty safe assumption and now the tapes don't matter.

Simply ask any of the hundreds of NFL coaches what they did or didn't do that would have given the Belichick an marked advantage? Cricketsville on this front. Instead they act dumb, well gee even though I have been a coach for 20 years I just couldn't say that I know what happened in that walk through....derp derp.

Dude, you're looking at this as an all-or-nothing proposition, which doesn't make sense. Yes, that Pats were definitely talented during those years, and they still are. No one is denying that. And sure, they could have beat all of those teams anyway. That's definitely possible. And it's also possible that despite them being a very talented team, they were looking for an additional advantage to further increase their chances of winning. Not hard to figure out.

Just because I or other NFL coaches may not know immediately what those reasons are, that doesn't mean none exist. I'm not Coach Belichick, so I can't answer for him. And despite your rebuttals, you still didn't answer what is a very simple question:

Why would they do it if there was no benefit?

Are we to believe the Pats just woke up one day and decided to pointlessly videotape other teams? And those tapes were so "worthless" they just had to be destroyed before an independent review could take place?

I think you're smarter than that.
[ Edited by baltien on May 1, 2012 at 12:42 PM ]
Originally posted by baltien:
Dude, you're looking at this as an all-or-nothing proposition, which doesn't make sense. Yes, that Pats were definitely talented during those years, and they still are. No one is denying that. And sure, they could have beat all of those teams anyway. That's definitely possible. And it's also possible that despite them being a very talented team, they were looking for an additional advantage to further increase their chances of winning. Not hard to figure out.

Just because I or other NFL coaches may not know immediately what those reasons are, that doesn't mean none exist. I'm not Coach Belichick, so I can't answer for him. And despite your rebuttals, you still didn't answer what is a very simple question:

Why would they do it if there was no benefit?

Are we to believe the Pats just woke up one day and decided to pointlessly videotape other teams? And those tapes were so "worthless" they just had to be destroyed before an independent review could take place?

I think you're smarter than that.

I did answer. I think Belichick is a thorough student of the game. Maybe there was a long term benefit to be gained in studying for long term trends. Maybe he just wanted to be sure there was no way to get around the signal safeguards....maybe he wanted to borrow there techniques in fortifying his own safe guards. There are plenty of reasons to do it, I think this is a case of Belichick just being more thorough and intelligent and is being punished because of that.

I think it is also something to factor in that as far as we can tell Belichick was assigning very minor resources to this.

As for the asterisk thing I just think the whole concept is lame. I do absolutely view it as a All or Nothing proposition. Either stricken something from the records or leave it the f**k alone.

The reason it needs to be all or nothing is because then it becomes unfair to focus on certain championships, records or eras.

If you put an asterisk on the Pats then you better put an Asterisk on the Saints. Better put an Asterisk on the Niners of the 80's with their illegal methods of compensating players and always getting the best FA's this way. Eddie D is a felon and his charges were sports and gambling related so asterisk for all those Niner championships.

Asterisk ALL the baseball champions of the steroid era.

How about in the 60's when the pain cream was illegal, asterisk those teams too.

Damn right I am being all or nothing, you are not being all or nothing enough. If you can't define why an asterisk is called for then that opens the gates to call into question everybody.

The term "if you are not cheating you are not trying" I think fits perfectly here. It basically means if you are not constantly testing the boundaries you are not competing. But they all are competing, and they all are testing the boundaries
[ Edited by danimal on May 1, 2012 at 12:57 PM ]
did he just say they made those videotapes b/c Belichick is a student of the game and he was being thorough. Come on now. That's right there with the dog ate my homework.
Originally posted by danimal:
I did answer. I think Belichick is a thorough student of the game. Maybe there was a long term benefit to be gained in studying for long term trends. Maybe he just wanted to be sure there was no way to get around the signal safeguards....maybe he wanted to borrow there techniques in fortifying his own safe guards. There are plenty of reasons to do it, I think this is a case of Belichick just being more thorough and intelligent and is being punished because of that.

I think it is also something to factor in that as far as we can tell Belichick was assigning very minor resources to this.

As for the asterisk thing I just think the whole concept is lame. I do absolutely view it as a All or Nothing proposition. Either stricken something from the records or leave it the f**k alone.

The reason it needs to be all or nothing is because then it becomes unfair to focus on certain championships, records or eras.

If you put an asterisk on the Pats then you better put an Asterisk on the Saints. Better put an Asterisk on the Niners of the 80's with their illegal methods of compensating players and always getting the best FA's this way. Eddie D is a felon and his charges were sports and gambling related so asterisk for all those Niner championships.

Asterisk ALL the baseball champions of the steroid era.

How about in the 60's when the pain cream was illegal, asterisk those teams too.

Damn right I am being all or nothing, you are not being all or nothing enough. If you can't define why an asterisk is called for then that opens the gates to call into question everybody.

The term "if you are not cheating you are not trying" I think fits perfectly here. It basically means if you are not constantly testing the boundaries you are not competing. But they all are competing, and they all are testing the boundaries

Re: the bolded parts:

1) So right after saying there was probably no benefit in the Pats taping other teams, you go on to list multiple ways it could benefit them. I'm confused.

Also, you can call it being "more thorough and intelligent" if you want but the league calls it illegal and cheating. No other way to put it.

2) Funny you mentioned baseball (I was thinking about that as well). I bet Barry Bonds wishes he could get away with a simple "well since you can't give me a reason why I would take steroids, that means it didn't happen." Unfortunately for him, it doesn't work that way in real life.

3) Cheating is cheating is cheating. Damn the reasons why, and damn the lame justifications after you get caught. In my mind, if you cheated you well deserve whatever backlash that comes along with that.

But I see we don't agree on this, and that's perfectly fine.
Originally posted by lamontb:
did he just say they made those videotapes b/c Belichick is a student of the game and he was being thorough. Come on now. That's right there with the dog ate my homework.

+1. It defies logic to think that someone KNOWINGLY did something wrong for YEARS that provided them no benefit whatsoever.
f**k John Harbaugh
This Niner fan loves pointing out that Montana & the Niners are better than the Brady Pats!!! Brady is missing the game winning td's 2 win big games in the post season like Montana to Clark & Montana to Taylor. Also it can be argued that the Patriot kicker is the most memorable postseason performer on their title teams!!!! Vinatieri kicked a 45 yarder in the snow during the "Tuck Rule Game"!!! Ummm that's still a FUMBLE...You add to the equation that they won their superbowls by a small number of points combined & oh yeah they mighta CHEATED????? Go ask Marshall Faulk what he thinks about... SPYGATE
Patriots are also really lucky, they had to face Jake Delhomme and Donovan McNabb in the super bowl. NFC really stunk for a few years.
The Patriots cheated and of course they get a asterik for their "cheating."

It's one thing to steal signs from the other team, like baseball or even football but VIDEOTAPING teams practices so they know exactly what play they are running is total CRAP. Look how good our offense was with Dingleberry and jimmy rays basic o when the other teams were calling out the plays beforehand.