There are 72 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

With EVERY position addressed, should 49ers move up in 2015 for top WR/CB?

  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,932
Originally posted by Rascal:
My question is why are we only saying we might need a top flight WR in 2015 ? If my memory serves me right, have we not been talking about getting a bonafide deep threat vertical wideout for at least 2 years now ? The need had long been identified back at the end of the 2011 season. As such, Baalke went out to sign Randy Moss who as it turned out had long run out of gas in his tank. Then, he also drafted AJ Jenkins in the 2012 draft which as we all know has turned out to be a complete bust. This deep threat need further escalated as Kap became our starting QB half way through the 2012 season as he took over from Alex Smith given his immense arm strength. So, what did Baalke do ? In the 2013 draft, Baalke drafted Quinton Patton in the 4th round, was he supposed to be that deep threat answer then ? Or is it supposed to be Brandon Lloyd who is already 32 which I doubt ? Or could it be Stevie Johnson who is more known as a slot receiver ? Or perhaps Bruce Ellington who is also more known as a slot wideout ? Not saying he can't play deep, are we going to line him up on the outside and is he supposed to be that deep threat answer ? I might be wrong, but I doubt Baalke had "deep threat" in mind when he signed Stevie Johnson and drafted Bruce Ellington. One thing for sure, neither Anquan nor Crab is that guy as they are both possession WRs.

In short, what I am saying is Baalke has never addressed that need properly or with success for more than 2 years now. So, do we need a top flight deep threat WR ? Absolutely, not may be in 2015, but this is an unfulfilled need which has been ongoing for years.
I disagree with your premise that Baalke is ignoring the speed dimension to this offense. Ginn, Kyle, Moss and Delanie gave us the speed dimension in 2011 and 2012. Mario and Kyle never really came back in 2013, and of course AJ Jenknos was a bust in 2012-2013. Jenkins draft choice was supposed to be our speed WR but failed. So he's legitimately tried to get more speed, and when he did see Jenkins as a bust, he got a whole bunch of free agents that had speed but none of them panned out for us in 2013.

Having said that, he's not had the success we'd hope with speed WR's. Again the AJ Jenkins bust gives everybody a wrong impression about that with Baalke. Personally, I think they will continue to invest in speed WR's from here on in. that, and power runners like Hyde and powerful man blockers like Marcus.
This thread makes me chuckle. Let's see how the games play out, what injuries we have, and who signs or leaves before we try to speculate on what the Niners should do a year from now.
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,932
Originally posted by Phil:
We're going to be sending a lot of draftee's to other teams. I'm kinda over not picking up a WR earlier but am still concerned with the CB position. Brock played well last year (ints) in part because QB's were testing him. I think he'll get more "respect" this season and QB's will pick on Culliver more (but Brock also gives up some big plays). We'll be tested early in the season with some pass happy teams. Hopefully I'm wrong about our outside corners.

I agree. We will be cutting a lot of good players that can play in the NFL. We cut BJ Daniels and Marcus Cooper and both are on other teams. Colt McCoy and Seneca were cuts that are still employed. Josh JOhnson (I think) is still a reserve QB somewhere in the NFL right now. Harlaalson and Cam Johnson were cuts that got us a couple of 7th round draft picks. I fully expect that Baalke will try to trade some of our draft cuts for draft picks.

Now that we don't have the Alex 2nd round picks anymore, the trading is going to be a lot harder in the first few rounds, and like Seattle, where the 49ers will trade in the future would probably be in the middle to lower rounds.
Originally posted by Phil:
We're going to be sending a lot of draftee's to other teams. I'm kinda over not picking up a WR earlier but am still concerned with the CB position. Brock played well last year (ints) in part because QB's were testing him. I think he'll get more "respect" this season and QB's will pick on Culliver more (but Brock also gives up some big plays). We'll be tested early in the season with some pass happy teams. Hopefully I'm wrong about our outside corners.


Ward, Hyde, Martin, Borland and Ellington are all locks to make the team IMO.


Thomas, Reaser and Millard are all IR bound.


That leaves Johnson, Acker, Ramsey and Lynch.

Ramsey I see as the likeliest to stick, either ending up on IR with a double hangnail or simply making it to the practice squad because he's a 25 year old rookie with a long injury history and I don't see other teams beating down the door for him.


I think the 49ers find a way to make Johnson and Lynch stick, both represented good value where they were drafted at, both require long term investments. If Lynch doesn't show progress, I could see the 49ers ultimately cutting ties with him.


The most likely guy from this draft to wind up with another team is Acker. If he can't beat out Cox, Wright or Morris for a spot then he'll likely be gone and I could see another team potentially scooping him up.


In the end, I could see 1 or 2 of their picks go to another team. Will it be an exodus of draft picks like some are suggesting? I don't think so.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on May 12, 2014 at 10:50 AM ]
I know people are thinking this topic is premature, but based on the title, I would like to infuse some more youth into the front 7 next year, preferably at DE and then ILB/MLB. This of course would be contingent on what we have now panning out.
I'm more worried about the 2032 NFL Draft... should we bother trading up to get a top-rated WR/CB in that draft too?! Better start scouting those 3 month old babies!
Originally posted by Giedi:
I disagree with your premise that Baalke is ignoring the speed dimension to this offense. Ginn, Kyle, Moss and Delanie gave us the speed dimension in 2011 and 2012. Mario and Kyle never really came back in 2013, and of course AJ Jenknos was a bust in 2012-2013. Jenkins draft choice was supposed to be our speed WR but failed. So he's legitimately tried to get more speed, and when he did see Jenkins as a bust, he got a whole bunch of free agents that had speed but none of them panned out for us in 2013.

Having said that, he's not had the success we'd hope with speed WR's. Again the AJ Jenkins bust gives everybody a wrong impression about that with Baalke. Personally, I think they will continue to invest in speed WR's from here on in. that, and power runners like Hyde and powerful man blockers like Marcus.

True...also had Marlon Moore (deep threat) and Lockette as well. We just use our "speed" differently than most teams (as a decoy). Or we don't use it at all (cuts).
Originally posted by Giedi:
I disagree with your premise that Baalke is ignoring the speed dimension to this offense. Ginn, Kyle, Moss and Delanie gave us the speed dimension in 2011 and 2012. Mario and Kyle never really came back in 2013, and of course AJ Jenknos was a bust in 2012-2013. Jenkins draft choice was supposed to be our speed WR but failed. So he's legitimately tried to get more speed, and when he did see Jenkins as a bust, he got a whole bunch of free agents that had speed but none of them panned out for us in 2013.

Having said that, he's not had the success we'd hope with speed WR's. Again the AJ Jenkins bust gives everybody a wrong impression about that with Baalke. Personally, I think they will continue to invest in speed WR's from here on in. that, and power runners like Hyde and powerful man blockers like Marcus.

I didn't say Baalke never tried to address it, I said he has never addressed it "properly or with success". Take last year's training camp for example, didn't it become kind of desperate as Baalke traded AJ Jenkins and ended up having to scramble to sign a boatload of no-name free agents which as it turned out none of them worked out neither ? My point is did he only realize AJ Jenkins was a bust during training camp or did he already have an idea before that ? Perhaps he could have done more about it in the draft apart from picking Quinton Patton ? I don't consider Quinton Patton as a speed WR, he is neither fast nor big enough to be a legit deep threat wideout. Remember the first Seahawks game last season ? The poor kid literally got thrown around like a rag doll by their D. So, fast forward one year, who and where is that deep threat wideout ?
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,789
There have been many complaints that the team did not get a wide receiver that could use speed to stretch the field.

I am trying to reconcile those complaints with the drafting of Bruce Ellington.

I think that Ellington has the speed to stretch the field.

At the combine, Ellington's official time in the 40 was 4.45.
His two unofficial times at the combine were 4.31 and 4.37.

He ran a 6.69 in the three-cone--one of the faster times at the combine
He ran a 3.95 in the short shuttle--one of the faster times at the combine.
He ran a 11.12 in the long shuttle--again one of the faster times at the combine.

Granted the times in the various shuttles do not measure long speed, but how many slow receivers run fast shuttles.

In my estimation, these times strongly suggest that Ellington is fast enough to stretch the field.

Am I missing something?
[ Edited by buck on May 12, 2014 at 11:38 AM ]
Originally posted by Garlicboy:
Originally posted by znk916:
Too soon to worry about WR. Even if we lose Crabs, we still have Boldin for a year, Stevie for two, and another year of development for Patton and Ellington. I don't see a need for a top shelf WR until Boldin actually leaves or retires, but even then I have a feeling we can get one via trade at some point much like Boldin and Stevie came here. There are always situations around the league where talented WRs get paid and then fall out of favor with management for whatever reason.

CB is a huge concern imo. That being said, we've been very good at getting value out of signing vets (dating back to Walt Harris) and developing lower and undrafted picks (Brown, Brock). This could just simply be the way our front office prefers to address the position. It's not like Seattle threw high picks at their secondary either, so there is a precedent to developing an elite secondary without committing the resources to doing so.

IMO what this team needs more pass rush. We've had great players on D for years dating back to Nolan's tenure, but our defense didn't step up into top 5 territory until we got Aldon. The problem now being of course, Aldon himself, since we have no idea what kind of stupid he will do next. Without Aldon's pass rush, we are back to being a solid but non-elite D.

Great point with Aldon. We did draft Aaron Lynch who has Aldon like qualities so that is a definite plus. Brooks is getting old, but Lemonier and/or Skuta look more than capable of replacing him. But Aldon is definitely the difference between good and great defense.

CB's, I'm not as skeptical. People forget Eric Wright was an above average CB with 14 career INT's and he's on a 1 year prove it deal.
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/7/19/4539580/eric-wright-scouting-report-what-to-know-about-the-new-49ers
Chris Culliver is also in a contract year and if he can stop getting in trouble off the field and focus on football, he will be just fine.

Rookies Dontae Johnson and Keith Acker, have a chance to contribute and I trust the 49ers coaching staff. Just look at the job they did with Eric Reid, Tramaine Brock, Chris Culliver, Perrish Cox and even Marcus Cooper who they tried to sneak onto the practice field and played well as a rookie with the Chiefs.

Culliver, Brock and Wright/Ward can be more than adequate with Reid and Bethea behind them. If one guy at of Morris, Acker and Johnson becomes a solid future starter there's your CB problem solved.

what happens if all 3(Morris,Acker.Johnson)all turn out very solid? then you have a very good d-backfield
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Ward, Hyde, Martin, Borland and Ellington are all locks to make the team IMO.


Thomas, Reaser and Millard are all IR bound.


That leaves Johnson, Acker, Ramsey and Lynch.

Ramsey I see as the likeliest to stick, either ending up on IR with a double hangnail or simply making it to the practice squad because he's a 25 year old rookie with a long injury history and I don't see other teams beating down the door for him.


I think the 49ers find a way to make Johnson and Lynch stick, both represented good value where they were drafted at, both require long term investments. If Lynch doesn't show progress, I could see the 49ers ultimately cutting ties with him.


The most likely guy from this draft to wind up with another team is Acker. If he can't beat out Cox, Wright or Morris for a spot then he'll likely be gone and I could see another team potentially scooping him up.


In the end, I could see 1 or 2 of their picks go to another team. Will it be an exodus of draft picks like some are suggesting? I don't think so.

Jimmie Ward S/C - Safe to say, he makes it given he covers the slot, nickle, FS and ST role (punt blocker) and pushes Wright/Cox even more.
Carlos Hyde RB - Safe to say, he makes it.
Marcus Martin C - Safe to say, he makes it.
Chris Borland ILB & Shayne Skov ILB - Safe to say, this is going to be an epic battle and one guy will make it for sure (and push Moody off the roster most likely). What is Wilhoites current contract structure?
Bruce Ellington WR - Safe to say, he makes it in a triple role for us (slot, deeper threat and dynamic returner).
Dontae Johnson CB & Kenneth Acker CB - I think Johnson makes it and becomes the Cooper Baalke wished he kept last year. Clearly we are going to play more press coverage and that is Johnson's game.
Kory Faulkner QB - Has a chance at the #3 (PS)
Aaron Lynch OLB/DE - Also has a shot and the contracts/development of Skuta/Lemonier will come into play.
Caled Ramsey DE - He looks good but probably a PS at best given the depth ahead of him.
Brandon Thomas OT (PUP) -
Keith Reaser CB (PUP) -
Trey Milliard FB (PUP) -
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,789
Originally posted by Rascal:
I don't consider Quinton Patton as a speed WR, he is neither fast nor big enough to be a legit deep threat wideout. Remember the first Seahawks game last season ? The poor kid literally got thrown around like a rag doll by their D. So, fast forward one year, who and where is that deep threat wideout ?

Do you really have to be big to be a legitimate deep threat wide out?

How big is D Jackson?

I remember one play in the Seattle game where Patton got mugged.

Are you saying that Bruce Ellington is too slow or too small to be an effective deep threat?

If you are, please explain your reasoning.
[ Edited by buck on May 12, 2014 at 11:55 AM ]
Still believe Gordan will be a niner quote me
Originally posted by buck:
There have been many complaints that the team did not get a wide receiver that could use speed to stretch the field.

I am trying to reconcile those complaints with the drafting of Bruce Ellington.

I think that Ellington has the speed to stretch the field.

At the combine, Ellington's official time in the 40 was 4.45.
His two unofficial times at the combine were 4.31 and 4.37.

He ran a 6.69 in the three-cone--one of the faster times at the combine
He ran a 3.95 in the short shuttle--one of the faster times at the combine.
He ran a 11.12 in the long shuttle--again one of the faster times at the combine.

Granted the times in the various shuttles do not measure long speed, but how many slow receivers run fast shuttles.

In my estimation, these times strongly suggest that Ellington is fast enough to stretch the field.

Am I missing something?

You're right on point. I think people think 4.3 is necessary for a speed receiver. Not true. IMHO, one of the best deep threat speed WR is Torrey Smith and he had a 4.43 forty. Ellington is right there at 4.45
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,789
Originally posted by Garlicboy:
You're right on point. I think people think 4.3 is necessary for a speed receiver. Not true. IMHO, one of the best deep threat speed WR is Torrey Smith and he had a 4.43 forty. Ellington is right there at 4.45

So. there are at least two members who think that Baalke drafted a wide receiver that is fast enough to stretch the field.

I do not feel as lonely.