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For all of the draftniks who think the Niners need a big fat NT.

Originally posted by eonblue:
BJ Raji and Haloti Ngata both play on the ends of a 3-4 and can play NT. We need that kinda versatility because were not getting a cowboy this draft.

Sure, but those guys are top 10 picks. We need a lot of luck to pick up a player like them where we are picking.
Cowboy isnt done...so we have time to find his heir or get a kid slightly later who has time to learn for a year or two. Soap and RJF may be gone now, so their replacement is a priority. Beyond that RJF has not really proved to be more than a backup level talent in all his years with us. I think thats what is driving people to go tackle first and then end. We need both, but one has to be a starter this year and thats the guy playing nose.
Originally posted by mebemused:
The number 1 priority on the D-line is to find Justin Smith's replacement. That would be someone with a quick first step and a nonstop motor, who is big enough to line up at end in the base D, and inside on pass rushing downs. Assuming Smith recovers 100% from his tricep injury, the rookie would spell Smith and McDonald, who played on 96% of our defensive snaps, while he learns the position. Strengthening our DT/DE with a three man rotation should give Aldon Smith more sacks.

We can find good Nts later in the draft, which is fitting cause they will only be in on 1/3 of the snaps.


Agree 100%. I would be willing to give up the second round pick this year, and maybe the pick we get from AS to move up to get Sheldon Richardson from Missouri.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by 9erred:
I am amazed at how many people say we can't draft so and so because they are a 4-3 DE or so and so because they are not a 3-4 DE. The Niners only ran a pure 3-4 defense 35% of the time or so. Isaac Sopoaga was in on only 31 % of the niners defensive snaps. When teams go into multiploe WR sets and the niners go into a nickel or dime package the NT comes out and McDonald and Smith play the 3 technique instead of the 5 technique position. This essentially means that 65% of the time the niners are in a hybrid or a 4-3 defense.

So the Zoners who want to draft a run stuffer that weighs 350 pounds with the first round pick, I say NO. I would rather have Smiths replacement who will be on the field the majority of the time than a run stuffer who is only in on 35% of downs.

See the link, NT is not used as much for the 9ers.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/sports/Niners-Could-Cut-Ties-With-Defensive-Anchor-190701441.html

What if Smith's replacement isn't there? Do you just draft a guy all of a sudden because he's a defensive end and no other reason?


Additionally, if you draft a DE, who's going to play more snaps next season, a starting NT or a backup DE? There's also no guarantee that an NT wouldn't play more snaps. Soap's snaps dropped off this year from last, some of that had to do with how team's were scheming against the offense, I feel another part was attributed due to his reduced overall effectiveness.

So yeah, you can look at simply as an issue of snaps, I look at it as matchup issue. There's no position on the defense that the 49ers can improve on defense more than NT IMO. If they can find a top DE such as Datone Jones in the 1st round, great, I'm all for it, but if they don't have any particularly compelling prospects available, then there's no reason not to select a player like Jenkins or Williams.
Well said, i feel we really got gashed a lot more in the run game than in the previous year,(Giants,Seahawks) etc. Soap is starting to show his age and as a previous poster said, we wanna keep teams one dimensional whenever possible.
I don't understand the logic behind this 35% argument. I mean do you guys think we should just switch to 4-3 then? From a cap standpoint it would make much more sense to draft a solid NT or 2. You wouldn't have to resign sopo or RJF which opens up money for extensions and you would probably get more production from the rookies.

Originally posted by stever:
Sure, but those guys are top 10 picks. We need a lot of luck to pick up a player like them where we are picking.

No. We could pick up Jesse Williams who has played both NT and DE in nickle packages. Most mocks have him dropping to the second or being picked by us. We could trade up for Hankins who is a great prospect that can play DE in the nickel. Hes not breaking the top 10 and some have him falling to 20's.
[ Edited by eonblue on Feb 12, 2013 at 8:22 AM ]
Originally posted by Mister49:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by 9erred:
I am amazed at how many people say we can't draft so and so because they are a 4-3 DE or so and so because they are not a 3-4 DE. The Niners only ran a pure 3-4 defense 35% of the time or so. Isaac Sopoaga was in on only 31 % of the niners defensive snaps. When teams go into multiploe WR sets and the niners go into a nickel or dime package the NT comes out and McDonald and Smith play the 3 technique instead of the 5 technique position. This essentially means that 65% of the time the niners are in a hybrid or a 4-3 defense.

So the Zoners who want to draft a run stuffer that weighs 350 pounds with the first round pick, I say NO. I would rather have Smiths replacement who will be on the field the majority of the time than a run stuffer who is only in on 35% of downs.

See the link, NT is not used as much for the 9ers.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/sports/Niners-Could-Cut-Ties-With-Defensive-Anchor-190701441.html

What if Smith's replacement isn't there? Do you just draft a guy all of a sudden because he's a defensive end and no other reason?


Additionally, if you draft a DE, who's going to play more snaps next season, a starting NT or a backup DE? There's also no guarantee that an NT wouldn't play more snaps. Soap's snaps dropped off this year from last, some of that had to do with how team's were scheming against the offense, I feel another part was attributed due to his reduced overall effectiveness.

So yeah, you can look at simply as an issue of snaps, I look at it as matchup issue. There's no position on the defense that the 49ers can improve on defense more than NT IMO. If they can find a top DE such as Datone Jones in the 1st round, great, I'm all for it, but if they don't have any particularly compelling prospects available, then there's no reason not to select a player like Jenkins or Williams.
Well said, i feel we really got gashed a lot more in the run game than in the previous year,(Giants,Seahawks) etc. Soap is starting to show his age and as a previous poster said, we wanna keep teams one dimensional whenever possible.

If Smith's replacement is on the field most of the time...when does Smith play? Seriously the position may be on the field more....but that kid you draft wont be playing it more than a few snaps a game for another two years.
They need a guy who can play both and stay on the field at the DT/NT. The pass rush dropped off b/c in those 4 man fronts they created n pressure. Kicking Smith and Mcdonald inside didn't work well. They need somebody else to go with Mcdonald in the middle and I'd leave Smith on the outside and rotate Brooks and Aldon on the opposite side
  • kush
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,648
We need to select the best front 7 players available regardless of their specific position. So long as a guy can ball, we can make use of him. RJF, who I fully expect to be back and who should take a leap forward this season in production, is versatile enough to allow us to take either a NT or DE because i trust him to fill whichever hole we cannot fill in the draft.
[ Edited by kush on Feb 12, 2013 at 8:42 AM ]
Originally posted by AXEGRINDER:
No one thinks RJF can shoulder the load 35% of the time?

Yes! I think he can. RJF may not be as powerful as Soap, but he can play the two-gap NT position... and is a capable backup should someone go down at DE.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by AXEGRINDER:
No one thinks RJF can shoulder the load 35% of the time?

LOL, no.


I don't think he's even that great as a backup, let alone a starter.

Agreed.
[ Edited by SFrush on Feb 12, 2013 at 8:57 AM ]
Originally posted by eonblue:
I don't understand the logic behind this 35% argument. I mean do you guys think we should just switch to 4-3 then? From a cap standpoint it would make much more sense to draft a solid NT or 2. You wouldn't have to resign sopo or RJF which opens up money for extensions and you would probably get more production from the rookies.

Originally posted by stever:
Sure, but those guys are top 10 picks. We need a lot of luck to pick up a player like them where we are picking.

No. We could pick up Jesse Williams who has played both NT and DE in nickle packages. Most mocks have him dropping to the second or being picked by us. We could trade up for Hankins who is a great prospect that can play DE in the nickel. Hes not breaking the top 10 and some have him falling to 20's.


It is not a 35% arugment. I am the OP and I am stating that most zoners get HUNG UP on the Niners running a 3-4. The beauty of the 3-4 is you can change your scheme easily, a 3-4 team can play the 4-3 hybrid. But a team who only has 4-3 peronnel cannot play the 3-4 as easily. So my point is I would not use the num ber 1 pick on a NT. If there was a Vince Wilkford, BJ Raji or Star Loutie at pick 31, then yes, but that calibur player will be gone. My point is I would rather have a 3-4 DE like Cowboy who can play the 5 technique and the 3 technique at pick 31. You can get the 1 gapper in round 3 or beyond.
Ray McDonald is a BEAST and can play anywhere you put him. Dunno about RJF at NT but at DE he was awful.
I think NT will definitely be a priority in this draft but I don't necessarily think it will be with our first pick.I know alot of the board doesn't like Soap. This happened the last time he was up for an extension. There was a ton of hate for him that came up. Something to remember is that when Franklin was here, Soap got moved to DE in the 3-4 and played pretty well. He got pressure and helped set the edge against the run well. I wouldn't rule him out IF the Niners still want him around. I don't think he will ask for a ton of money. If the Niners gave him a fair offer I think he would be back.

That said, the Niners need impact players on the dline regardless of specific position, I'm not so much worried about OLB because of the 2 rooks from last year that never saw the field but I would still draft a lb in the 3rd or later. Haggans did absolutely crap last year as most of us thought he would.I think the Niners end up drafting 2 lineman in the first 4 picks and one after the 5th round.
Originally posted by eonblue:
I don't understand the logic behind this 35% argument. I mean do you guys think we should just switch to 4-3 then? From a cap standpoint it would make much more sense to draft a solid NT or 2. You wouldn't have to resign sopo or RJF which opens up money for extensions and you would probably get more production from the rookies.


No. We could pick up Jesse Williams who has played both NT and DE in nickle packages. Most mocks have him dropping to the second or being picked by us. We could trade up for Hankins who is a great prospect that can play DE in the nickel. Hes not breaking the top 10 and some have him falling to 20's.

Agreed, Jesse Williams can play anywhere along the D-line in 3 and 4 man fronts.

I would also look for a big gap clogger later in the draft to play some NT, cause I want Williams to spell Smith and McDonald.
Originally posted by 9erred:
It is not a 35% arugment. I am the OP and I am stating that most zoners get HUNG UP on the Niners running a 3-4. The beauty of the 3-4 is you can change your scheme easily, a 3-4 team can play the 4-3 hybrid. But a team who only has 4-3 peronnel cannot play the 3-4 as easily. So my point is I would not use the num ber 1 pick on a NT. If there was a Vince Wilkford, BJ Raji or Star Loutie at pick 31, then yes, but that calibur player will be gone. My point is I would rather have a 3-4 DE like Cowboy who can play the 5 technique and the 3 technique at pick 31. You can get the 1 gapper in round 3 or beyond.

I dont understand what you mean by "a team who only has 4-3 personnel". We have the best 3-4 LB crew in the league. We have 2/3 of a dominant dline and were just missing a legit NT. I know Smith is getting old and were going to need a replacement but dude was drafted at 4 overall. You talk about calibre being gone well good luck finding a cowboy at 31. Im not saying it cant be done but I have a couple of prospect that would be available in the 2-3 range. The calibre is there in 1st for NT Hankins and Jenkins who we could trade up for and Williams who will be available our pick. Some mocks even have Hankins or Jenkins being picked by us and most have Williams falling to the beginning of the 2nd.
[ Edited by eonblue on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:23 AM ]
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