There are 410 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

I' ve concluded that DL Jesse Williams is 'my guy' at #32 ( or near there)

Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
I like Jesse Williams a lot. However, I like him first and foremost as a run stuffing NT. Can he play DE in our system? Probably. But, I think his greatest value is in the middle. Having said that, I would absolutley take him with our first pick if he is there.

This.

Completely agree. When I first saw the title of this thread I immediately assumed that it was focused on Jesse Williams as a pure NT. As that is a legit need for a player that has a consensus higher grade than late first, I think that would be good value. I'd love to get a starting NT and a developmental DE that can grow into the position behind Justin Smith though. I don't even care what order they get drafted in; 1) NT, 2nd) DE or vice versa.

On the upside with JW, he and Kaepernick would match with all of their ink.
Sorry for the length. This may warrant it's own thread. I feel like most of the people on this board understand how what to look for in a 3-4 End. I don't mean to condescend at all, I just think it could be instructive to take a look at some of the premier 3-4 Ends in the current NFL in terms of their combine measurables and current measurables. Obviously, not all 3-4 ends are built the same, but if you look at some of the best 3-4 ends, there is a pattern in terms of their height and weight.

Starting with the elite 3-4 ends (pardon the inclusion of Richard Seymour and Aaron Smith, they used to be standard bearers not so long ago)
Justin Smith: Combine - 6' 4" 267 lbs / Current - 6' 4" 285 lbs. Pick 4 of draft
J.J. Watt: Combine - 6' 5" 290 lbs / Current - 6' 5" 295 lbs. Pick 11 of draft
Richard Seymour: Combine - 6' 6" 299 lbs / Current (now playing 4-3 DT) - 6' 4" 317 lbs. Pick 6 of draft
Aaron Smith: Combine - 6' 5" 279 lbs / Current 6' 5" 298 lbs. Pick 109 of draft
Ray McDonald: Combine - 6' 4" 279 lbs / Current 6' 4" 290 lbs. Pick 97 of draft

The Cardinals
Calais Campbell: Combine - 6' 8" 282 lbs / Current - 6' 8" 300 lbs. Pick 50 of draft
Darnell Docket: Combine - 6' 4" 297 lbs / Current - 6' 4" 290 lbs. Pick 64 of draft

And for one more example, a player from last year's draft I feel played the 3-4 end capably this season with the potential to be great in future seasons,
Kendall Reyes: Combine - 6' 4" 299lbs / Current - 6'4" 300 lbs. Pick 49 of draft

Clearly there are other good 3-4 DEs I've left out - Randy Starks, Muhammed Wilkerson, Glen Dorsey (arguably) - though these three players also fit into the general body type displayed by the 3-4 DEs listed above. Also, it's not necessarily beneficial to pigeonhole prospects into "height - weight - speed" categories, though it can be at times (Chris Culliver may be a good example of a mid-round pick spent on a h-w-s prospect). Either way, the best 3-4 DEs in the NFL all fall into a weight class which bottoms out at 285 with Justin (though that listed weight seems a tad low to me) and tops out at about 300 lbs (315 if you include Wilkerson and assume Seymour's current playing weight is what he carried with the Pats). All these guys are also in the 6' 3" - 6' 6" range with good length, Calais Campbell being the exception.

Justin Smith and Aaron Smith, both being older players, clearly had a lot of bulking up to do when they came out of college. Justin Smith now compared to Justin Smith version 2001 is laughable. He looks skinny as a twig coming out of Mizzou. College players now are bigger, faster and stronger than ever - we hear this all the time. They understand the importance of the weight room unlike guys coming out 10-15 years ago. Ray McDonald had a couple years in an NFL weight training program before he grew into his frame and became a legit starting 3-4 end.

And actually, that paragraph above is one of the reasons I'm slightly wary of Datone Jones as a 5 tech prospect. Look at his weigh in photo from the Senior Bowl (http://photos.al.com/mobile-press-register/2013/01/senior_bowl_2013_weigh-in_153.html). He is jacked. That weigh-in is part of the excitement he's created on this forum and around scouting circles. Can he add another 10 lbs to his frame, or has he maxed out? Is he country boy strong like Cowboy where adding another 5 should suffice? In my mind, Jones is best suited as LE in a 4-3 defense, though I'm not ruling out at all that he could bulk up another 10 lbs more in the NFL which would allow him to be a solid 3-4 end. I just don't have the same sense of optimism on Jones as Phoenix. Certainly would not label him as the top 3-4 end available.

On the same note, I also don't feel Jesse Williams is a great fit as a 5-tech. I understand the argument that as an end he would essentially set the edge and make life easier for the LBs, but given the fact we play Nickel nearly 50% of the snaps, I think whoever we draft along the D-Line, especially in the early rounds, must display the ability to provide an impact in the interior pass rush (as Justin and Ray do now). I don't think Williams provides that. He could be a NT, but I still don't think he fits in with what the Niners want to do on defense.

Also, if you look at the top three 3-4 ends in recent memory (Justin, Watt and Seymour) they are all top picks. These guys were/are elite talents. It is highly doubtful we can grab a guy who can make an impact like those three at the end of the first round. This speaks to nickbradley's point; the best 3-4 DE will not be available at pick 32. However, we do have the picks to move up for an elite talent, and there will be plenty of potential starters and impact players at pick 32 and beyond.

My list of favorites for 3-4 DEs available in this draft:
1) Sheldon Richardson (top 15) - Would need work on containment and setting the edge. Not worried though. Tomsula cures all ills. Outstanding interior presence.
2) Sharrif Floyd (top 20) - From a technique standpoint he is probably superior to Richardson, having played end in college and understanding run containment. Not quite as high on his pure talent however.
3) Datone Jones (top 50) - Needs to add weight as addressed above. Would like to see him destroy the bench press at the combine.
4) Margus Hunt (rd. 2-3) - Calais Campbell alone gives me hope that a player at 6' 8" can be an effective 5 tech. I think Tomsula could make this work.
5) William Gholston (rd. 3-5) - at 6' 6" and 278 Golston is underweight now, but adding 15 pounds to his long frame would not be out of the question. Very talented and a guy I think could develop into a monster under Tomsula and behind Justin. However, he had some issues in college (punched Taylor Lewan) and was suspended, and did not live up to expectations this year. A red flag for sure, which is the reason for his fall.
jesse williams a poor mans = haloti ngata
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
All of this...

If Datone Jones is as good as you guys say -- and he's Quinton Coples or better -- he's going in the top 15.

At #32, you draft guys with some limitations -- but Williams can grow into an NT down the line, which has value.

I'm kind of tired of people demanding a defensive lineman that can rush the passer in a 3-4 defense. Look, if you want a guy that can rush the passer AND hold the point of attack with a solid 5-technique, he's going in the top 10 of the draft!

And if you just want a guy that can rush the passer, might as well switch to a 4-3, or a "not really a 3-4" 3-4 defense that Wade Phillips runs.

Well now that you mention it, I'd be happy with a conversion to the 4-3.

... but to the bolded, just what D-scheme do you think we are running now? We are running a primarily 1-gap 3-4... so why do you imagine that our 3 DL are there to simply soak up blocks and not rush the passer? Did you know that RayMac and Justin both were in the top 10 for QB hurries?

So basically what I am saying is.. our scheme works to get pass rush from all of our front 7... so the DEs need to be able to pass rush well. Justin's strength is pass rushing and scraping quickly down the LOS to make tackles away from his gap. He isn't a run-blocking cow protecting his gaps. He holds up well on singles though, and that's where our stud ILBs and Goldson come into play.

Most here want a true heir apparent to Justin... and most are willing to move up to get him if need be. All the talk of needing to trade up prior to the Combine seems premature to me. But anyway, back to my point. We want a Justin replacement that is good/okay at run D and very good at pass rush.... say hello, Datone.. say g'bye, Jesse.

... and if you want a guy that is better at run D than Datone... but a little less on pass rush than Datone? ... then Floyd's your man.
[ Edited by Mr.Mcgibblets on Jan 30, 2013 at 11:48 AM ]
Originally posted by 9erred:
I do not understand someone being sick and tired of arm chair general managers who want it all!!! We want Justin Smith at pick 32, let me put down my bong and say that even without taking a hit, the 9ers will not get a Justin Smith at pick 32. However I am with the other posters that I would prefer a 5 technique 3-4 DE over a NT. The NFL is rapidly evolving into a hurry up offense that has gone from 60 offensive plays up to 90. Thus you need studs on DL that have endurance. This is why you need a 5 technique that can stuff the run, get edge containment and rush the passer.

+

At 32, you can get a 5-technique or a 4-3 DE (3-technique), not both.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Well now that you mention it, I'd be happy with a conversion to the 4-3.

... but to the bolded, just what D-scheme do you think we are running now? We are running a primarily 1-gap 3-4... so why do you imagine that our 3 DL are there to simply soak up blocks and not rush the passer? Did you know that RayMac and Justin both were in the top 10 for QB hurries?

So basically what I am saying is.. our scheme works to get pass rush from all of our front 7... so the DEs need to be able to pass rush well. Justin's strength is pass rushing and scraping quickly down the LOS to make tackles away from his gap. He isn't a run-blocking cow protecting his gaps. He holds up well on singles though, and that's where our stud ILBs and Goldson come into play.

Most here want a true heir apparent to Justin... and most are willing to move up to get him if need be. All the talk of needing to trade up prior to the Combine seems premature to me. But anyway, back to my point. We want a Justin replacement that is good/okay at run D and very good at pass rush.... say hello, Datone.. say g'bye, Jesse.

... and if you want a guy that is better at run D than Datone... but a little less on pass rush than Datone? ... then Floyd's your man.

you'd switch to a 4-3 with Willis & Bowman? what, move Bowman to OLB?
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Well now that you mention it, I'd be happy with a conversion to the 4-3.

... but to the bolded, just what D-scheme do you think we are running now? We are running a primarily 1-gap 3-4... so why do you imagine that our 3 DL are there to simply soak up blocks and not rush the passer? Did you know that RayMac and Justin both were in the top 10 for QB hurries?

So basically what I am saying is.. our scheme works to get pass rush from all of our front 7... so the DEs need to be able to pass rush well. Justin's strength is pass rushing and scraping quickly down the LOS to make tackles away from his gap. He isn't a run-blocking cow protecting his gaps. He holds up well on singles though, and that's where our stud ILBs and Goldson come into play.

Most here want a true heir apparent to Justin... and most are willing to move up to get him if need be. All the talk of needing to trade up prior to the Combine seems premature to me. But anyway, back to my point. We want a Justin replacement that is good/okay at run D and very good at pass rush.... say hello, Datone.. say g'bye, Jesse.

... and if you want a guy that is better at run D than Datone... but a little less on pass rush than Datone? ... then Floyd's your man.

What? Justin smith is considered the prototype 5-technique DE in the NFL. But he can shift to a 3-tech in nickel situations and obvious passing downs, as the article points out.

Another technique in need of a new prototype, with the injuries to Ty Warren, we're looking for a new person to pass the torch to. The traditional 5-technique is a two-gap player, lining up directly over the offensive tackle, and responsible for the B- and C-gaps on his side of the formation. He has to be able to stack tall offensive tackles and shed blocks to make the stop in either one of his gaps. 3-4 nose tackles can control their gaps on the interior with sheer bulk (in short areas their strength and size is paramount), but on the edge, against taller tackles, 5-technique players need not just size but 'length' (height and arm length combined).

At 6'4 and 290lbs, Justin Smith has the requisite size, length and agility to dominate this position. He also has fearsome strength, plays with fantastic leverage, and has a motor that simply won't quit. This allows the 49ers to use him in multiple positions on their D-line, kicking inside to more of a 3-technique role in nickel situations, and makes him the most dominant 3-4 DE in the game. Justin Smith is more than good enough at every facet of the game to be the NFL's new prototype 5-technique.



Ray McDonald plays two-gap/5-technique as well. but when we shift to nickel and Sopoaga comes out in obvious passing downs, cowboy and RayMc play a 3-technique and shoot the gap.

And just to be clear, Sopoaga doesn't have a very good 0-technique, and its something he had to learn.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/28/defensive-prototypes-defensive-line/
Nick, sorry , but with 13 , or is it 15 picks, AND a relatively unexpected hi pick in exchg for alex (say our #1 for their #1 (JAX, cards, etc)) we are going to be drafting a lot higher than #32.
Originally posted by hofer36:
williams though not a great pass rusher, could aid the pass rush if he can tie up blockers to free up aldon smith like justin smith does...

Which is what you want your NT doing, holding up blockers to free up the pass rush. Soap isn't getting that done right now, which is why I've been so big on finding a starting NT, if healthy, Justin is going to require multiple blockers or he will destroy his side of the line, throw in a big, physical NT that also requires multiple blockers and this team will be a markedly more difficult matchup than it is already.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Nick, sorry , but with 13 , or is it 15 picks, AND a relatively unexpected hi pick in exchg for alex (say our #1 for their #1 (JAX, cards, etc)) we are going to be drafting a lot higher than #32.

I would. yes.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Which is what you want your NT doing, holding up blockers to free up the pass rush. Soap isn't getting that done right now, which is why I've been so big on finding a starting NT, if healthy, Justin is going to require multiple blockers or he will destroy his side of the line, throw in a big, physical NT that also requires multiple blockers and this team will be a markedly more difficult matchup than it is already.

The prototypical DE in a 3-4 plays a 5-technique, not a 3-tech.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Which is what you want your NT doing, holding up blockers to free up the pass rush. Soap isn't getting that done right now, which is why I've been so big on finding a starting NT, if healthy, Justin is going to require multiple blockers or he will destroy his side of the line, throw in a big, physical NT that also requires multiple blockers and this team will be a markedly more difficult matchup than it is already.

Also, smith changes techniques. elite defensive linemen do that.
Originally posted by 2Legit2Quit:
Sorry for the length. This may warrant it's own thread. I feel like most of the people on this board understand how what to look for in a 3-4 End. I don't mean to condescend at all, I just think it could be instructive to take a look at some of the premier 3-4 Ends in the current NFL in terms of their combine measurables and current measurables. Obviously, not all 3-4 ends are built the same, but if you look at some of the best 3-4 ends, there is a pattern in terms of their height and weight.

Starting with the elite 3-4 ends (pardon the inclusion of Richard Seymour and Aaron Smith, they used to be standard bearers not so long ago)
Justin Smith: Combine - 6' 4" 267 lbs / Current - 6' 4" 285 lbs. Pick 4 of draft
J.J. Watt: Combine - 6' 5" 290 lbs / Current - 6' 5" 295 lbs. Pick 11 of draft
Richard Seymour: Combine - 6' 6" 299 lbs / Current (now playing 4-3 DT) - 6' 4" 317 lbs. Pick 6 of draft
Aaron Smith: Combine - 6' 5" 279 lbs / Current 6' 5" 298 lbs. Pick 109 of draft
Ray McDonald: Combine - 6' 4" 279 lbs / Current 6' 4" 290 lbs. Pick 97 of draft

The Cardinals
Calais Campbell: Combine - 6' 8" 282 lbs / Current - 6' 8" 300 lbs. Pick 50 of draft
Darnell Docket: Combine - 6' 4" 297 lbs / Current - 6' 4" 290 lbs. Pick 64 of draft

And for one more example, a player from last year's draft I feel played the 3-4 end capably this season with the potential to be great in future seasons,
Kendall Reyes: Combine - 6' 4" 299lbs / Current - 6'4" 300 lbs. Pick 49 of draft

Clearly there are other good 3-4 DEs I've left out - Randy Starks, Muhammed Wilkerson, Glen Dorsey (arguably) - though these three players also fit into the general body type displayed by the 3-4 DEs listed above. Also, it's not necessarily beneficial to pigeonhole prospects into "height - weight - speed" categories, though it can be at times (Chris Culliver may be a good example of a mid-round pick spent on a h-w-s prospect). Either way, the best 3-4 DEs in the NFL all fall into a weight class which bottoms out at 285 with Justin (though that listed weight seems a tad low to me) and tops out at about 300 lbs (315 if you include Wilkerson and assume Seymour's current playing weight is what he carried with the Pats). All these guys are also in the 6' 3" - 6' 6" range with good length, Calais Campbell being the exception.

Justin Smith and Aaron Smith, both being older players, clearly had a lot of bulking up to do when they came out of college. Justin Smith now compared to Justin Smith version 2001 is laughable. He looks skinny as a twig coming out of Mizzou. College players now are bigger, faster and stronger than ever - we hear this all the time. They understand the importance of the weight room unlike guys coming out 10-15 years ago. Ray McDonald had a couple years in an NFL weight training program before he grew into his frame and became a legit starting 3-4 end.

And actually, that paragraph above is one of the reasons I'm slightly wary of Datone Jones as a 5 tech prospect. Look at his weigh in photo from the Senior Bowl (http://photos.al.com/mobile-press-register/2013/01/senior_bowl_2013_weigh-in_153.html). He is jacked. That weigh-in is part of the excitement he's created on this forum and around scouting circles. Can he add another 10 lbs to his frame, or has he maxed out? Is he country boy strong like Cowboy where adding another 5 should suffice? In my mind, Jones is best suited as LE in a 4-3 defense, though I'm not ruling out at all that he could bulk up another 10 lbs more in the NFL which would allow him to be a solid 3-4 end. I just don't have the same sense of optimism on Jones as Phoenix. Certainly would not label him as the top 3-4 end available.

On the same note, I also don't feel Jesse Williams is a great fit as a 5-tech. I understand the argument that as an end he would essentially set the edge and make life easier for the LBs, but given the fact we play Nickel nearly 50% of the snaps, I think whoever we draft along the D-Line, especially in the early rounds, must display the ability to provide an impact in the interior pass rush (as Justin and Ray do now). I don't think Williams provides that. He could be a NT, but I still don't think he fits in with what the Niners want to do on defense.

Also, if you look at the top three 3-4 ends in recent memory (Justin, Watt and Seymour) they are all top picks. These guys were/are elite talents. It is highly doubtful we can grab a guy who can make an impact like those three at the end of the first round. This speaks to nickbradley's point; the best 3-4 DE will not be available at pick 32. However, we do have the picks to move up for an elite talent, and there will be plenty of potential starters and impact players at pick 32 and beyond.

My list of favorites for 3-4 DEs available in this draft:
1) Sheldon Richardson (top 15) - Would need work on containment and setting the edge. Not worried though. Tomsula cures all ills. Outstanding interior presence.
2) Sharrif Floyd (top 20) - From a technique standpoint he is probably superior to Richardson, having played end in college and understanding run containment. Not quite as high on his pure talent however.
3) Datone Jones (top 50) - Needs to add weight as addressed above. Would like to see him destroy the bench press at the combine.
4) Margus Hunt (rd. 2-3) - Calais Campbell alone gives me hope that a player at 6' 8" can be an effective 5 tech. I think Tomsula could make this work.
5) William Gholston (rd. 3-5) - at 6' 6" and 278 Golston is underweight now, but adding 15 pounds to his long frame would not be out of the question. Very talented and a guy I think could develop into a monster under Tomsula and behind Justin. However, he had some issues in college (punched Taylor Lewan) and was suspended, and did not live up to expectations this year. A red flag for sure, which is the reason for his fall.

Both Derek Wolfe and Kendall Reyes were early 2nd round picks last year, both became instant starters and both did a damn good job for their respective teams.

As far as Jones, I'm not sure how any of that reflects on his ability to gain further weight. He's certainly got the frame to another 10 pounds or more. Put him in a pro-style strength training program and he'll add the mass over time. Its not a question of mass, its a question of what weight he starts to lose effectiveness at, I think he can get to 290 and still maintain his explosiveness and athleticism, a weight which is sufficient to play the DE.


" Justin Smith and Aaron Smith, both being older players, clearly had a lot of bulking up to do when they came out of college. Justin Smith now compared to Justin Smith version 2001 is laughable. He looks skinny as a twig coming out of Mizzou."


Which is nonsense. He was pretty "jacked" as well, as you put it, and still had plenty of room to add further weight.







If anything, he was far more defined and leaner in terms of lower bodyfat. He's added a bit of bodyfat as well as probably another 10-15 pounds of muscle while in the NFL.


[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 30, 2013 at 3:17 PM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Here is the flaw in your thinking. Why do the 49ers need a defensive end? They've got two starters, right? One of them happens to be getting up there in years, and that guy is Justin Smith. You'd like to draft an eventual replacement for Justin Smith at DE.

Jesse Williams is not a replacement for Justin Smith at DE. Maybe if the 49ers ran their system like the Steelers do, but that isn't case. If you are seeking to replace Justin Smith eventually, you want someone that can both stop the run AND rush the passer. Jesse Williams is an atrocious pass rusher, he was asked to hold the edge and little else. You don't replace a star DE with a generic 5-technique. You need to find someone who is also explosive, who is quick off the ball, who can get to the quarterback, who is a complete player.


The reason people want Jesse Williams at NT is simple, he's big, he's strong,he has decent athleticism for that position and he can limit teams from running up the middle, but because of his lack of pass rush ability, he simply doesn't belong on the outside on the 49ers. Justin Smith coming out of college was about 6'4" and 270, he ran a 4.6 40 and possessed tremendous strength. You don't replace a guy like that with a big, fat guy who takes up space, you need to find someone with similar explosion and athletic ability.

This is why I feel Datone Jones is far more of an ideal DE than Williams. He's got the ability, the quickness, the explosive first step, he can stop the run or take down the passer, he can get around the corner, as a DE he's a far more complete player than Williams.
Agreed. And I have a feeling that teams are gonna try to stick him at the nose in the 3-4 or at the 2 and 3 technique in the 4-3. Just like Williams I seriously doubt we'd be able to draft Jones without dealing some picks to move up to get him.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Nick, sorry , but with 13 , or is it 15 picks, AND a relatively unexpected hi pick in exchg for alex (say our #1 for their #1 (JAX, cards, etc)) we are going to be drafting a lot higher than #32.
We have 14 picks. I'd love to get a 1st for Alex, but I don't think that'll happen. I do think, however, we'll get a hi 2nd for him.